Written by the finger of god? What was ?

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Dude how goes 2 U2,

As much as I would like to reply to your post in detail time doesn't allow.

I cannot imaging anyone here coming to an agreement on what truth is, nevertheless what is not true is what I pointing out.

What is not true is that moses ended up with anything written by the finger of god.

The upshot of that is, that secular society politely invites xtianity to desist in trying to interfere in our lives by using the alleged authority that of the bible being written by the finger of a god. This claim is still made by many Christians.

As there is not evidence whatsoever that one word of the bible was written by a god and all evidence points to the contrary. Also baring in mind that many christian have in fact concede this point but still cling to the unsubstantiated claim that the bibles were inspired by an alleged god.


There doesn't appear to be (from a non believers point of view) any difference at all between a muslim telling xtians that they should not drink alcohol etc because its against some imaginary gods law, and a christian telling me I should not act in such and such a manner, as their imaginary god says so.


This reply has not been written in anger contrary to the inferences of some would be psychological profilers and neither is it intended to offensive to anyone, it is a simple reasonable request, and once again I will remind Christians that I do not hate them.

Needless to say, according to the scriptures that are waved in the face of the secular world , it would appear xtians are supposed to discipline their thoughts so as not be able to take offense.





[edit on 17-1-2009 by moocowman]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

There doesn't appear to be (from a non believers point of view) any difference at all between a muslim telling xtians that they should not drink alcohol etc because its against some imaginary gods law, and a christian telling me I should not act in such and such a manner, as their imaginary god says so.

...according to the scriptures that are waved in the face of the secular world , it would appear xtians are supposed to discipline their thoughts so as not be able to take offense.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by moocowman]

I'm replying somewhat in reverse to your points but to start with - I hear you - and considering where I came from, understand the irritation that you feel. It was a while ago, but I still remember.

And you're absolutely correct that self-control is supposed to be a fruit of the spirit - which many Christians, myself included, often do not demonstrate very well. However, if you knew where I came from, you would know that I demonstrate it much better than I used to and it's not just because I'm older now. And there are other fruits of the spirit also, that as a Christian I am supposed to show evidence of. Again, if you knew where I came from, you would be surprised that I show some of these things.

Which leads me to your point about sin and behavior, i.e. what we should and should not be doing. Many religions prescribe certain "sinless" behavior as a means of salvation. Sort of the "be a good boy and go to heaven" approach to life. This is recognized as impossible in Judaism and Christianity. For instance, many of the sacrifices were for "unintentional" sins. By way of example, maybe I think I'm being very "good" letting that car but in line in front of 10,000 other waiting cars behind me, when in fact I'm hurting 10,000 other people. So, we cannot actually fathom how our actions hurt each other, just that we will inevitably and continually sin no matter how "good" we think we are.

Christianity simply admits that none of us are good boys, that we have sinned against God, and that we owe a debt because of it. Since we can't pay it, God who loves us said, "I'll pay it myself." And we believe the absolutely insane notion that if we accept this gift through the authority of God to give it in the first place, that our lives here and in the hereafter will be changed. Well, I did it and my life has been changed. I turned from sin.

So, why believe the bible? It says some publisher house's name on the spine, it has a date on it like 1956 or something, and it's written in English not ancient Hebrew or Aramaic or some equally impenetrable language.

It's faith. I have faith that the bible has been persisted by God because: a) I hope that there is an afterlife and that God controls a good and perfect afterlife. I don't want life to be over when I die, and b) I see evidence in my own life that others aren't necessarily privy to, that I believe are a result of my acceptance of what Christ did.

The things in the bible ring true for me. I understand that they cannot ring true for you. Although, I'll bet you would admit that there are many good teachings in the bible that have the ring of truth to them. I'm also sure that if we had God's perspective on what "good" is, that even more of it would seem right to us.

I made this point on another post but one thought that people should consider is that if the claims of the bible being primarily written by Jewish people are true and that it has been preserved this long in any form and continued to be handed down, then it is the only book of its kind and somewhat miraculous. The Jews are the most despised people of all time but somehow this literary work of theirs endures? Describing their particular God and his mysterious relationship with them?

It's odd, no?

reply to post by Ichabod

I made this point on another post but one thought that people should consider is that if the claims of the bible being primarily written by Jewish people are true and that it has been preserved this long in any form and continued to be handed down, then it is the only book of its kind and somewhat miraculous. The Jews are the most despised people of all time but somehow this literary work of theirs endures? Describing their particular God and his mysterious relationship with them? It's odd, no?

I fail to see how you came to this conclusion, the Vedas alone would seem to discredit your statement. Although early hieroglyphs were written on stone and cuneiform onto clay tablets, they completely discredit your statement.
Add to this that many bible tales appear to be reworkings of Egyptian / Mesopotamian creation type stories, and the fact that Christianity was imposed upon millions under duress. There appears to be nothing miraculous here my friend.

I also fail to see the mystery in the relationship between the jews and their god," believe in it or be killed", no mystery .

Nevertheless, this does nothing to explain why christianity should be allowed, to continue to endeavor to impose its' beliefs on others and try to dictate how they should live their lives.

I am trying to understand what you are really saying here...

So we look in the bibles and what do we find? Well Moses went up a mountain leaving the sheeple at the bottom, he returns to them after he had a chat with a god and moses told the sheeple what the god had to say. Moses even went to the trouble of writing down in a book, what the god had to say, not as though the sheeple would have known what was written in this book as they would mostly have been illiterate.

It really doesn't sound like you want an answer as evidenced by your overall combatitive attitude, but just in case you really want to know, I will try to answer the question that you asked.

The mountain god was supposed to have written something itself, with its’ very own finger on some stone tables/tablets, but was obviously not omniscient enough to have foreseen moses breaking them whilst throwing his toys out of the pram, when he learned of his brother and the sheeple worshiping bull and not the mountain god.

So what did moses end up with that was written by the god ?

Nothing! Zilch Nada, Zero.

It really doesn't sound like you want an answer as evidenced by your overall combatitive attitude, but just in case you really want to know, I will try to answer the question that you asked.
In Genesis 19 the scene is set, It is three months after their exodus from Egypt. The children of Israel are encamped around the foot of Mt. Sinai, Moshe (Moses) goes up to meet with God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not the "mountain god". He tells Moshe to talk to the people and give them a message, that message being: " You have seen what I did to the Egyptians and how I bore you on eagle's wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, then you will be a special treasure to me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." So Moshe went to the elders of the tribes and to the people and told them what God said. "Then the people answered together and said,"All the LORD has spoken we shall do."
So Moshe went back to the LORD with the words of the people. At this point God has stated His desires and the people have agreed to his terms. They have entered into a verbal agreement. So next, God speaks to the people so that they are sure to know that the agreement is actually with God, not Moshe. The people are terrified of his voice and ask that He talks only through Moshe. So Moshe goes back up the mountain and God gives him more detail about the covenant, these details are written in stone by the finger of God. So after 40 days with God, Moshe returns with the tablets, the written contract/covenant between God and the people only to find that the people have already broken their contract with God by worshiping an idol. God tells Moshe what is going on and says that he will destroy this stiff-necked people and raise up a nation from Moshe's seed. Moshe begs for another chance for the children of Israel and God relents. Moshe then goes down to the people and breaks the tablets in front of them to demonstrate how they broke the covenant and it was now null and void. I know this is getting long but please stick with me, the answer is coming Moshe prays for the forgiveness of the people, God exacts punishment on those that are unrepentant and life goes on while Moshe and God renegotiate the covenant. At the end of a long deliberation God tells Moshe to carve new tablets and God again wrote the commandments on them with his own finger. What he wrote on the tablets was His instruction for how to live as a child of God. They were for those who wantedto be part of the covenant, not for everyone.
There were no "Christians", only those who wanted to enter into a covenant with God.

I fail to see how you came to this conclusion, the Vedas alone would seem to discredit your statement. Although early hieroglyphs were written on stone and cuneiform onto clay tablets, they completely discredit your statement.

The tablets would have been written in Paleo-Hebrew not cuneform.
I am a little confused... was the title of this thread to talk about what God wrote with his own finger or to start another thread bashing Christians? After reading your posts I am concerned that you have lumped all Christians into a pool of people that you have obviously had issues with. Not all Christians are interested in foisting their particular beliefs on you and not all Christians are responsible for the crimes committed by those using the name of God for their own purposes, much like all Americans or not responsible for the actions of our forefathers in their treatment of slaves or the indigenous indian cultures. Please do the world a favor and use your words and your energy to do something positive.

reply to post by moocowman

The holy spirit is a state of mind but not just a plain state of mind and I wish we all knew that. All the prayers that were ansrewed for me were coincidences but not just plain coincidences. No dragon breathed fire and carved out two stones, no angel fairy flew down with a magic wand and made words appear and no boogey man walked in with a feather pen. Inspired by God through the holy spirit, interpreted and then printed by man. That's the holy bible. We are free to accept or reject.

OK I got some questions of my own that are quite related to the original post. But first let try to get some things straight here.
Some of the major religions,like Christianity, believe that there is only ONE ALL-Powerful and ALL-Knowing GOD correct? Let's say that their belief is 100% true.
So I'm going to ask some questions based on those beliefs. And I hope someone can answer them.

Like some people said there are so MANY different interpretations of the Holy Bible(and possibly other scriptures)interpreted and written by different people. Well why not let GOD himself(or herself or itself or whatever) write and interpret the Bible? Why let the Holy men write the Bible? I mean wouldn't it be better and more convincing if GOD wrote AND interpret the Bible? GOD wrote the 10 commandments right? If I remember correctly the All-Powerful GOD wrote the commandments,not Moses.So why not do the same with the Bible,without the help of the Holy men?

If the correct interpretation of the Bible already exists,then which one is it? And no I don't want some Holy person to show it,I want GOD to show it. I bet that could clear up TONS of confusion between the believers and heck it might even convince the non-believers.

Since the 10 commandments are pretty old and important,they still feel...well pretty old. How about GOD updates the list,without the help of some Holy person just like the first time. I think IMO the lists needs to be updated to fit the 21st century. I remember some months ago the Pope add some new commandments to the old ones. The new ones are adequate,but can't GOD himself write it and maybe add some better ones?

From what I can tell GOD wants us to listen to him(or her or it) without forcing us to,but not everybody does. Well if I were GOD I would write the commandments(old and new) or the Holy Bible ANYWHERE. I would write it in the shape of cloud formations in the sky or better yet how about in star formations in Outer space. Or better yet I could speak to them about the scriptures in ANY language. If they don't want to hear it,then I could say "That might not be a wise choice,but if you don't want to hear it,then I will be silent.If you don't want to hear it yet,then give me a call later,but know that I do exist." At that point some people might be skeptical,but if people found out that I spoke to ALL of them,then they might be more convinced of GOD's existence and that not all of them were hallucinating.

If GOD doesn't want to do those things,then why not? Sure there might have been some HUGE spiritual and miraculous events back then,but why not now?

If Judgment Day really is coming then I would want to hear it from GOD as a warning,instead of hearing it from the Holy people.

I may not fully understand GOD,but I think the All-Powerful and All-Knowing GOD can do so much better.

If the correct interpretation of the Bible already exists,then which one is it? And no I don't want some Holy person to show it,I want GOD to show it. I bet that could clear up TONS of confusion between the believers and heck it might even convince the non-believers.

The Holy Scriptures are the first five books of the bible, called the Torah, the prophets are also considered Holy Scriptures since they were the words of God spoken to His people through the prophets. The rest of the bible is called the Tenach or other writings. The New Testament is also considered other writings. The words of God as written by the prophets are the infallable words, everything else needs to have at least two witnesses/references that can be found in either the Torah or the prophets to be considered valid. That puts certain writings in the New Testament in the "questionable" catagory,in my mind, until a witness can be found for them in the Holy Scriptures. The best "interpretation" isn't an interpretation, it is a translation. The Torah, prophets and writings in the "Old Testament" have been guarded fervently by the Jewish people for thousands of years, unfortunately they also added their two cents in the writing known as the Talmuld, which is what Yeshua (Jesus) warned his disciples about, "beware the leaven of the Pharicees". If you are actually looking for what the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said, then find a bible that has been translated directly from the Hebrew by people who speak Hebrew. The rest of the versions of the bible are not translated they are transliterated which means that they have been INTERPRETED not translated.
Why can't we hear directly from God? The answer to that is in Exodus; after Moshe (Moses) talked with the God ( there is an explanation for how Moshe was able to talk directly to God but it is too long for this post) and got the covenant proposal to take to the people, the people heard the proposal and accepted it. Moshe went back up to speak to God with the answer from the people. Next step, God tells Moshe to have the people sanctify themselves and He/God would speak to them personally. The voice of God so terrified the people that they begged that God would not speak to them but that Moses would hear and be the messenger of God to them. So now God speaks through the prophets and we hear His stepped down "still small voice" in our spirit, if we have a covenant relationship with Him.
As far as God showing up and declaring Himself, be careful what you ask for... the prophets tell of the "Day of YHWH", when God again reveals Himself to the earth, only this time it won't be to ratify a covenant.
I think the real question here is: are you seeking for a relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? If yes, the read and accept His covenant proposal, you will find it in Exodus. If you are not seeking to have a relationship with Him, fine, the Torah doesn't apply to you. Live your life however you think is best. It is really all about where you want to fall in the sceme of things... A treasured people with the blessings and protection of the Creator of the Universe or a person of the nations who is on their own. No sell job, no threats, suit yourself.

reply to post by defendant

Inspired by God through the holy spirit, interpreted and then printed by man. That's the holy bible.

So why exactly, would an omniscient being the alleged creator of all that is, was, and will be,. Need an interpreter?

We are free to accept or reject

No we are not.
Not according to the bibles and more importantly many of its' adherents, who would endeavor to force its' opinion upon those who reject it. Proposition 8 for example just goes to show how many of the bible believers would interfere with other peoples lives given the opportunity, Hiding behind a delusion that the books were supposedly written or inspired by a god.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Ichabod

 

...
I fail to see how you came to this conclusion, the Vedas alone would seem to discredit your statement. Although early hieroglyphs were written on stone and cuneiform onto clay tablets, they completely discredit your statement.

...

I also fail to see the mystery in the relationship between the jews and their god," believe in it or be killed", no mystery .

Nevertheless, this does nothing to explain why christianity should be allowed, to continue to endeavor to impose its' beliefs on others and try to dictate how they should live their lives.

I don't understand your reference to Sanskrit literature. What does that have to do with the claim that the bible is the work of Jewish authors or that it is about the relationship between the Jews and God? That's exactly what it claims to be.

As far as being "allowed to continue to endeavor to impose", I think there's a freedom of speech issue here. Within the limits of civil law I have the right to express my opinion about the behavior of others, to share my religious views, to vote, etc. Do you sense a modern day inquisition going on to "convert or die" in Christianity? It's actually quite the opposite in public life in the U.S. where, for instance, persecution of Christian and Jewish kids is openly practiced in public schools. There's a huge freedom of speech issue raging in the U.S. over it.

The civil law is all about imposing your beliefs on others and dictating how people should live their lives. It defines where one person ends and another begins. It's a negotiation moderated by everyone employing their belief systems and is implemented in the U.S. by a representative voting system.

So, if that's what you're arguing against, good luck. I think both 'freedom of' and 'freedom from' religion is alive an well in the U.S. anyway.

reply to post by Ichabod


Here is a copy of your post

I made this point on another post but one thought that people should consider is that if the claims of the bible being primarily written by Jewish people are true and that it has been preserved this long in any form and continued to be handed down, then it is the only book of its kind and somewhat miraculous. The Jews are the most despised people of all time but somehow this literary work of theirs endures? .

My response was to the claims that the bible is the only book of it's kind and miraculous. I argued that the no miracle the vedas are of that kind no miracles there.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Here is a copy of your post

I made this point on another post but one thought that people should consider is that if the claims of the bible being primarily written by Jewish people are true and that it has been preserved this long in any form and continued to be handed down, then it is the only book of its kind and somewhat miraculous. The Jews are the most despised people of all time but somehow this literary work of theirs endures? .

My response was to the claims that the bible is the only book of it's kind and miraculous. I argued that the no miracle the vedas are of that kind no miracles there.

The point is not just that an old document is preserved. The point is that it is an old document produced by despised people and yet is revered around the world by us non-Jewish sheep. Come on - would you at least admit the irony of the situation?

The Jews are despised and yet this work has been preserved. Not the case for the Vedas unless you're making the case that the Hindus have undergone the same persecution. Yes, the Vedas have been preserved, but their authors were not uniformly despised nor do they remain so throughout much of the world today.

It must have been a rather difficult back flip for the inquisitors to torture and torment Jews using the bible as a basis (for such religion) when the book is written by Jews about Jews and reaches its climax with the death of the Jewish Messiah. No wonder they didn't want anyone reproducing it - they'd have been laughed off the stage otherwise.

Hello ATS thread members. A great discussion from both sides.
The Creationists vs The Evolutionists. I think Evolutionists now have a commanding lead. Since technology has allowed our planet of citizens, which encompass peoples, that are not sheoples, who don't know any thing named god for example a rare tribbe of ancient rainforest people, to being open minded. I think these truly real citizens of our planet would likely agree more with our creation being from some other planet "dust" than from 6 days of work. To jump way ahead in explaining how our dna might have got here or synthesized here, compared to the written word of a man of god.

reply to post by tormentor


I agree with some of what you are saying, here are my thoughts regarding God and they are not religious. Couldn't HE be something different?

reply to post by moocowman

Not according to the bibles and more importantly many of its' adherents, who would endeavor to force its' opinion upon those who reject it. Proposition 8 for example just goes to show how many of the bible believers would interfere with other peoples lives given the opportunity, Hiding behind a delusion that the books were supposedly written or inspired by a god.

It is a little scary. I watched The Jesus Camp on Biography and it was disturbing!! The evangelicals DO plan on taking over the government! Off topic I realize but thought I would give affirmation.

reply to post by RIPNBYA


Yes, but of course, a person can believe in God and evolution. The two are not exceptions. They can actually work together, we don't have to keep it in a box or compete...not necessary.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

It is a little scary. I watched The Jesus Camp on Biography and it was disturbing!! The evangelicals DO plan on taking over the government! Off topic I realize but thought I would give affirmation.

Hardly off topic my friend, this is the whole point of my argument.

Given the right circumstances in a society, eg terror campaigns or alleged terror campaigns, the fear of of the rise of other religions. How long would it be before normally meek people get afraid or become pissed off and side with radicals.

We only have to look at tiny little arena like this thread, to see how people are willing to to got extremes in order not to be wrong.


The youtube video of Richard Dawkins debating Ted Haggard sends shivers down my spine, Haggard reminds me of some hideous gargoyle thank god he was exposed.

But how many Haggards are waiting in the wings coiled up and hissing, waiting for fate to deliver the opportunity to rally the troops, and inflict their mad dogma upon my children.

How much different is the indoctrination of children at jesus camp than that of the hitler youth ?

From what I have managed to glean from the bible, this character jesus' hair would certainly curl at what some of these mad people are teaching their kids.

reply to post by Ichabod


Yes I would admit the irony, sorry missed your point.
However we cannot dismiss the fact that these books, or rather the contents, were forced upon uneducated people with fear, this is an inescapable fact.
As far as I'm aware you may correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will lol) the Vedas were not forced upon people with fear of torture or killing etc.

reply to post by moocowman

The youtube video of Richard Dawkins debating Ted Haggard sends shivers down my spine, Haggard reminds me of some hideous gargoyle thank god he was exposed.

But how many Haggards are waiting in the wings coiled up and hissing, waiting for fate to deliver the opportunity to rally the troops, and inflict their mad dogma upon my children.

How much different is the indoctrination of children at jesus camp than that of the hitler youth ?

From what I have managed to glean from the bible, this character jesus' hair would certainly curl at what some of these mad people are teaching their kids.

Yes, I saw that interview! I am not a proponent of Dawkins (he has issues too) but I can agree with him in this video. He had a very hard time with those people and could not keep the sneer off his face!

To me there is little difference between Hitler Youth Corp and the Jesus Camp. They had the children wearing war paint! Yes, Jesus - regardless of what one believes about him, would be throwing a hissy fit.

this all depends who you think "god" was, there was something given, but by who?