Does knowing about the Noahide Laws change perception?

The Jews teach that Gentiles were not ever required to live under the Mosaic Law, which consists of 613 Laws. Instead Gentiles were under the Noahide Covenant, which has a total of 7 laws. Prior to the Noahide Covenant, the covenant for all of humanity was the the Adamic Covenant and it had only 6 laws.

These 7 laws concern:

1. The practice of equity.
2. Blaspheming the Name.
3. Idolatry
4. Sexual immorality
5. Bloodshed
6. Robbery
7. Eating limb torn from a live animal.

It, I guess, should be obvious why the seventh law was added, since according to the bible after the flood people were allowed to eat meat.

So many people will say that "we" Christians are under a new covenant, due to Jesus. Actually, "we" Gentiles are under the same covenant we have always been, except that Jesus added a new commandment: That we love one another, which I believe all of Jesus' teachings revolve around.

Many people will refer to the chapter of Acts 10 to support the "new" covenant to support not following the dietary laws or some other law in the Old Testament, but neglect to realize the controversy that had been developing due to grace and the reason those visions were given.

Some Jews were insisting that those gentiles who were being given the Holy Spirit must then abide by the Mosaic covenant and it's 613 Laws. Other Jews were not of this opinion as those laws were given to the nation of Israel only. This was the controversy and it was causing a lot of strife and confusion within the community.

So, the apostles got together and made a decision regarding the following of the Mosaic Law for gentiles, which is given in Acts 15:28-29: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled* and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

This then, I think sheds light onto why Paul was always teaching the futility of the law... the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant that is. The Holy Spirit is available to all Gentiles without the need and burden of following the 613 Mosaic covenant laws. Paul was not teaching contrary to Jesus, but to Gentiles whom were and are under a different covenant, with the added commandment given by Jesus that we love one another.

Those Jews who were demanding and teaching that gentile persons of The Way, Christians, had to follow their laws were creating confusion in the community of what exactly was expected of them and Paul was continually running into those who thought (and had been taught) that they had to follow the dietary restrictions or had to be circumcised, etc.

Does knowing about the Noahide covenant give a new perspective?

Or do you think the apostles were wrong in going with what the Spirit revealed to them?


_________________

*While abstaining from things strangled seems to be adding to the Noahide covenant, I believe that it is in the same spirit of the law previously given. The animal would still be in a state of extreme stress and fear while enduring strangulation as it would be to have one of it's limbs cut off for consumption.

It changed my perception and made me look with more discernment concerning the New Testament in regards to the Torah.

Paul was VERY much against the Torah when he opposed it by teaching others to worship a man as god. He taught that this man was their savior. Even the translation of the Torah that we have (known as the Old Testament) makes it clear that there is only ONE G-d; that there is no other gods beside Him; that there were no gods formed before Him nor would there ever be; and that He alone is the Savior.

Paul was very much against the teachings of the Jewish people and thus, it is no wonder that he took his doctrine of lies to the gentiles because the Jewish people (being able to see straight through the lies) would not accept it.

But yes, the Noahide Laws were one of many epiphanies that led me to further investigate the teachings that we are taught via the christian bible.

reply to post by justamomma


Hi, justamomma,

How you doing? Hope all is well with you.

Paul was VERY much against the Torah when he opposed it by teaching others to worship a man as god.

This is so strange to me. I've read the bible a number of times, and have never gotten this message that Jesus is God.

To me, that is who the anti-christ is. He/she who teaches that Jesus is God in totality.

The scriptures tell us that God is not a man, and also is not a son of man. To worship a man as God in totality, instead of viewing them as reflecting the fullness of the holy spirit, is the anti-christ... and Paul speaks of these people.

So, I just don't see the same thing.

I do appreciate your input and am glad that the knowing of the noahide covenant had made you continue to research.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Jesus added a new commandment: That we love one another, which I believe all of Jesus' teachings revolve around.

Actually - Jesus didnt add to anything...
Jesus wasnt about religion, but about living the heart of the matter at hand.
(Going beyond the religious trappings, as it were.)

He said that Love sums up all the Laws and the prophets...not adds to them.

Typically we love to add things to our belief system...collect things, etc.
Jesus did not introduce yet another thing to add to ones belief, but introduced - again - how to live a practical life...how to actually 'be' vs. 'think'.

...in short, he showed the door, which if we choose to walk through, will free us from the ego/false self...which lives off of the need of having an identity and the need to create separation, which we see the church is extremely good at - and mastered amongst themselves the art of division.

Nothing wrong with a cell dividing and multiplying, but when it does it in disregards to the rest of the body, then it destroys - not only the host - but in the end, itself.

Seek what Jesus sought, the truth that unites all of us - and peace will come.
The peace starts in you first.

Peace

dAlen

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by justamomma
Paul was VERY much against the Torah when he opposed it by teaching others to worship a man as god.

A lot has been distorted, and misunderstood over time.
Paul, like Jesus, were from the Jewish culture, (less we forget, Paul was a rabbi.)

What I have found is that Christians lack of understanding of Judaism, and their blind faith of interpretation to passages by others - in a book they will not read with understanding for themselves - is what seems to be the problem.

Paul, if anything, understood things a lot clearer than what a Christian would fathom, and what the average Jew would get...(The rabbis that know, are not going to say anything about it, as it would cause more of a mess amongst the already confused.)

In short, you could say Paul was a Kabbalist.
This is fun, as the Christians think they know what Kabbalah is - and many Jews will probably disagree, (despite the fact that an orthodox Jew is not allowed to have a copy of the N.T. - but anyway.)

As I said, I do not like labels, as they words are pointers, yet we turn them into mini idols and think we know what is being said.
What is kabbalah? Everyone and their brother seems to know.
I can only tell you my perception of what it is - an experience...not more of a hollow shell like the outer religions are.

Of course, you have your own journey to travel, and your own puzzle to piece together - what Im saying, is also pointers...not to get stuck in concepts such as "Paul was a Kabbalist" or "not" mentality.

Actually read Pauls writings, and piece it together for yourself...if it interest you that is.
You have to ultimately seek with your own heart...and you will find the answers you need. But, if you are a Christian, there is so much more that is being said that a basic understanding of mystical Judaism would help you out with.

Take a look at the 'body of Christ', and the concept of 'being in heaven and earth' at the same time. (Even a well known baptist preacher has said on more than one occasion, he does not know how it could be possible - but if the Bible said it, that it must be true. Well, he is right, and some basic Jewish concepts would help straighten this out...i.e., the levels of the soul.)

Now, not to take one thing and swap it for another - parables abound in both, as you see that 'parables' is the Jewish way of teaching, per say. What does it mean even to have a soul? (Let alone 5 levels of a soul!)

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by dAlen


Hey dAlen,

Great post!

Actually - Jesus didnt add to anything...

I had the following verses in mind when I wrote that.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:33

I do agree with you, it's not about religion, but about the living.

The thing about this little law set that bothers me is that they're clearly a control system for people who weren't aloud into the 'cool gang'

1,2 and 3 are all devoted to making sure the lowly outsiders which alas the jews sometimes had to mix with didn't ruin the brain washing which was keeping them subservient to the clergy.

The rest of them while seemingly nice and friendly are actually fairly hateful, 'god' once again hating on gay people of course and forcing people into a life bond with each other before they can pleasure each other and all the normal control stuff.

My real problem with them is this, The first set which god gave to adam didn't work at all and soon everyone needed to be killed because it had gone so wrong, then Noah got some and they didn't work because moses got a slightly modified set later which still didn't work so they added six hundred and something more which caused even more problems so an entire tome of loop holes, traditions and presidents was made to modify those laws but then (if you believe this bit) they were all wrong and god actually had to take human form to come down and fix them by killing himself!

hehe as you rightly point our op, paul did keep banging on about the law -first he said they they didn't matter but yet he still followed them all and then (conspiracy theory alert) he changed them all anyway!

reply to post by L.I.B.


Nice thread but I would have to disagree with the notion that we are not under Mosaic Law, particularly the 10 commandments. There are many verses in the KJV Bible that show this many in Red because they reported to be spoken by Christ himself.

The one that comes to mind quickest is the one about the patience of the saints...

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This tells me that Saints of GOD keep his commandments, but so many want to take the Sabbath out of their version as I see you did. The Sabbath Law was instituted to Adam in the garden and long before Hebrews and Jews and so it can not be claimed to be only a Jewish Law. Hope this helps you, and I hope you keep in the Word for every day in it is a Good Day..

Good Day to you!

Actually, the commandment was already part of the law.

Deuteronomy 6: 5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

It was part of the Law and not something that was a new revelation via the teachings of Jesus.

G.d got "it" right the first time. We didn't need another savior, another commandment, or another redeemer.

Deuteronomy 30: 6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Isaiah 43: 11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.



[edit on 2-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by NatureBoy


LOL, natureboy. I appreciate reading your thoughts.

Perhaps, though, that is why things keep changing? It's written that: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:"

Maybe the changes were to keep knowledge coming?

(conspiracy theory alert) he changed them all anyway!

He did? How? Would the Jews agree with you that their laws have changed? Maybe I mis-read you?

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Hi,

Nice thread but I would have to disagree with the notion that we are not under Mosaic Law, particularly the 10 commandments.

Thank you. I had considered someone might bring up the 10 sayings (that's what the Jewish community call them... sayings, rather than commandments).

There are many verses in the KJV Bible that show this many in Red because they reported to be spoken by Christ himself.

The one that comes to mind quickest is the one about the patience of the saints...

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This tells me that Saints of GOD keep his commandments,...

Yes, the saints have God's law written upon their hearts.

... but so many want to take the Sabbath out of their version as I see you did.

To the contrary,

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 14:5

I believe that the saints of God are as fully devout in every moment of every day as much as he who may regard one day above another.

The Sabbath Law was instituted to Adam in the garden and long before Hebrews and Jews and so it can not be claimed to be only a Jewish Law. Hope this helps you, and I hope you keep in the Word for every day in it is a Good Day..

Good Day to you!

Thank you! And to you too!

Though, do you have a reference to the Sabbath Law being instituted to Adam in the garden? Biblical or otherwise?

Thanking you in advance.

reply to post by justamomma

Actually, the commandment was already part of the law.

Deuteronomy 6: 5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

It was part of the Law and not something that was a new revelation via the teachings of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 30: 6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Isaiah 43: 11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

You are right.

God's messengers are consistent.

Jesus was showing how the letter of the law kills, which it certainly can do... in many, many ways. That very thing is now happening within the church-ianity community and all the self-righteousness.

G.d got "it" right the first time. We didn't need another savior, another commandment, or another redeemer.

Well, I won't say that Jeremiah, Jonah, Abraham, Moses, Daniel and etal were not needed.

Each served a purpose. A divine one.

I have read that the meaning of Jesus' name means: God will save or that salvation is of God.

While God has always got "it" right, mankind always seems to need a push or a pull. To me, Christ helps pull people towards God.

reply to post by L.I.B.


Well #they# do say that when little ol' Saul T added in the stuff about Jesus actually being part of god and thus ruining the bit when god actually says he is the only god and that only the god of the mountain 'i that i am' is god and anyone else pretending to be god isn't -well, apparently he also edited some of what the Jman said! Some people see to think that he was a power hungry control freak trying to gain power and control for his cult.

I think that most of the sensible stuff in the bible was written by very clever people, trueisms like "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:" are included because these wise men really did want to understand the world, they really could see that something was needed to fix society and help it progress - however the tool they chose 'divine law' soon got used as a blunt weapon of control and dominance.

The bible as we read it is don't forget a few randomly selected (sorry, divinely chosen) books while many other tomes of lore were destroyed, hidden or ignored - the customs of the old tribes were merged with the new, or strictly forbidden on pain of eternal torment. It's not a fluke that we selebrate jesus being born on the same day that the 'sun god' dies for three days and then is reborn -that is to say, the sun reaches its most sothern position then stays there for three days before moving back north causing the days to grow longer. It's almost as if all of human knowledge was collected by the wisest people of the time and put into a massive data base of scripture.

It's no secret that every nation in the world had different laws and punishments, thats because laws are important but they're also subjective -a law which helps me may hinder you, you may for example want women to cover their face while i might want then to walk around in hot pants, who's opinion the law respects the most depends on who makes the laws.

Take for example the many laws which control jews eating habits, the famous plate burying law being the first that springs to mind - the first most simple section of the law is a fairly simple means of avoiding cross contamination, in almost any kitchen dairy is kept away from raw meat. Once upon a time it probably made some sort of sense to force people to bury the plate but in todays day and age we have developed germ theory and invented disinfectant, dish washers and the like. It would make sense if that section of the torah was updated to 2008 Health and safety codes.

There is of course an awful lot of erronious info in the bible as well, prescriptions for medications which don't work and the like. Well i would go as far as to say the early laws are examples of silly things being passed off as fact. When the small tribes settled Israel numbers were important, everyone needed to have as many kids as possible to make the society grow, thus all the rules devoted to making lots of babies such as the one about not being gay made sense back then, maybe. However now we have over six billion people in the world and most populations have much lower infant mortality rates, longer life expectancy, etc, the main problem is that if we keep growing at the same rate it'll be standing room only by the time i'm an oap- surely now it's good that some people don't want children?

Thats before you get into the moral issues involved, they didn't live in a society anywhere near as complex as this 21century digital world, how could they have made laws which still make sense?

I wonder if the ripping arms off goats law which was extended to cover strangulation could also be extended to cover battery farmed meat, etc?

Originally posted by L.I.B. God's messengers are consistent.

Jesus was showing how the letter of the law kills, which it certainly can do... in many, many ways. That very thing is now happening within the church-ianity community and all the self-righteousness.

G.d got "it" right the first time. We didn't need another savior, another commandment, or another redeemer.

Well, I won't say that Jeremiah, Jonah, Abraham, Moses, Daniel and etal were not needed.

Each served a purpose. A divine one.

I have read that the meaning of Jesus' name means: God will save or that salvation is of God.

While God has always got "it" right, mankind always seems to need a push or a pull. To me, Christ helps pull people towards God.

Well, I had clarified my positions on all these points in the same post to which you reply; however, a lot of it was cut off (a fluke of the board that has happened several times to me). I will clarify it again, but not at this moment.

I will also give the reasons why (based on the Torah) Paul was not a messenger of G.d, but will start a new thread as it doesn't pertain to the topic here nor to the topic we met in previously.

And I am doing well. Thank you for the thoughtful words. I do hope that all is good for you too.

reply to post by justamomma

Well, I had clarified my positions on all these points in the same post to which you reply; however, a lot of it was cut off (a fluke of the board that has happened several times to me). I will clarify it again, but not at this moment.

I know! That has happened to me more than just a few times too!

I will also give the reasons why (based on the Torah) Paul was not a messenger of G.d, but will start a new thread as it doesn't pertain to the topic here nor to the topic we met in previously.

It escapes me how you think you can disqualify Paul based on the Torah, when Paul's teachings were to the gentiles whom were never subject to the Torah (the Mosaic Law/Covenant), but were instead subject only to the noahide covenant.

As I see it Paul's teachings were/are designed to get gentiles prepared to be able to accept G.d's law, which is written upon the heart.

And I am doing well. Thank you for the thoughtful words. I do hope that all is good for you too.

All is as it should be Nasty head cold and all, lol. All prayers for health are gladly accepted!

Say, I was wondering if you had gotten into your Judaic studies far enough yet to be able to share which "name" of G.d is used in the scriptures? Sometimes Adonai, Ancient of Days, and I think there are others that were all translated as G.d. too. I think it makes a difference.

Also, in advance, please forgive me if I ever forget to use G.d when posting to you. I like to be respectful of other's traditions, yet sometimes a habit can be overlooked accidentally especially when my fingers type what I think.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
It escapes me how you think you can disqualify Paul based on the Torah, when Paul's teachings were to the gentiles whom were never subject to the Torah (the Mosaic Law/Covenant), but were instead subject only to the noahide covenant.

As I see it Paul's teachings were/are designed to get gentiles prepared to be able to accept G.d's law, which is written upon the heart.

Thank you for letting me know where the thread was moved. I do find these types of discussions useful for me as it is through the oppositions (just meaning differences of views) that I am better able to learn how to articulate the knowledge I am being taught (not all comes from Jewish guides, but in fact, most of what I have been taught thus far was only affirmation or deeper understanding of what I had already known in my heart).

As far as Paul, it wasn't hard for me to disqualify him since I already sensed there was deception there long before I came to understand myself, my identity in G.d, etc. I just wasn't sure how the deception was carried out. It is very subtle, but when you understand the Hebrew texts as opposed to the christian bible, it becomes more clear. Even knowing the Old Testament (our translation of the Hebrew texts) inside and out can be useful in pointing out the deception of the New Testament.

All is as it should be

Nasty head cold and all, lol. All prayers for health are gladly accepted!

Most definately

Say, I was wondering if you had gotten into your Judaic studies far enough yet to be able to share which "name" of G.d is used in the scriptures? Sometimes Adonai, Ancient of Days, and I think there are others that were all translated as G.d. too. I think it makes a difference.

Also, in advance, please forgive me if I ever forget to use G.d when posting to you. I like to be respectful of other's traditions, yet sometimes a habit can be overlooked accidentally especially when my fingers type what I think.

The most important name, according to Judaism is of course Yod-Hei-Vav-Hei (YHVH). It is known as the Unutterable Name or the Distinctive Name of G.d. It is related linguistically to the Hebrew root word Hei-Yod-Hei (to be), which represents the eternal aspect of G.d.
Genesis 22: 13-14 uses the Name YHVH-Yireh which would be translated as Jehovah-jireh and speaks to His attributes of providing for His children.
Exodus 15: 26 it is YHVH-Rapha that is used which means "He is the one that heals us." (this one to me gives me shivers... I find it to be a BEAUTIFUL description and it is my FAVORITE ).
YHVH-Shalom (Judges 6: 24) means G.d of Peace.


The first name that appears in the Scriptures is of course, Elohim, in Genesis 1:1 (but is also used in Exodus 21:6 and Psalm 8:5.) This Name is most often used when referring to His might, creative powers, or other attributes of His rulership. El, Eloha, Elohai (my God) and Elohaynu (our God) would be the variations.

Adonai means LORD who is God. It is used as a substitution for YHVH because the people of Israel often felt YHVH was too sacred to say (and in light of this, most Jewish people do not utter or use YHVH because of its sacredness and those that do are often not actually Jewish, but christian and they aren't really aware of the sacredness of using this Name... you will see them generally write it out YHWH)

El Shaddai, according to a Midrash on the Tanakh, means "The One who said 'dai'" (the last being enough or it is sufficient).

YHVH Tzva'ot is another significant Name that does not appear in the Torah, but makes appearance in the prophetic books. It means "Lord of Hosts."

And as for typing it G.d, the reason this is done is because the Jewish people are very particular about not defacing the Name of G.d and once the Name is out there, it can be copied and pasted, therefore, often the vowels are left out. I actually started typing it out this way purely by instinct and was unaware that I was until it was told to me. I tried to stop because it was offending a lot of people around me. I was quite relieved to understand why it SHOULD be done this way when I started studying Judaism because my attempts to stop were not successful

(sorry it took me a while to respond. Had many interruptions and a store run to make lol)



[edit on 2-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


No problem at all in the waiting for your reply. It was well worth it. Glad that you looked for this thread in it's new location too.

Thank you for sharing the various names. Really enjoyed it. I was wondering... would it be too big of an endeavor to post scripture with the actual appropriate name? Maybe instead there is a book, in English, that you are aware of? I would luv that! Just seems to open up the scriptures even more.

I look forward to your post that you mentioned making, even though I still don't know how the teachings to Gentiles, and hence automatically nonconforming to the majority of Mosaic Law, is going to be an apples to apples kind of thing when comparing those Gentile teachings to the Torah.

Seems like there would be no reason to even try and compare them being that they are so different, but perhaps I shall find out!

May the One G.d of us all lead us always.




[edit on 2-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by L.I.B.
No problem at all in the waiting for your reply. It was well worth it.

Glad that you looked for this thread in it's new location too.

Thank you for sharing the various names. Really enjoyed it. I was wondering... would it be too big of an endeavor to post scripture with the actual appropriate name? Maybe instead there is a book, in English, that you are aware of? I would luv that! Just seems to open up the scriptures even more.

Actually, this is not a problem nor is it too big of an endeavor since this was something I have already had to do. I am not sure of a book that has done this already, although certainly there must be one.

Give me a few minutes as I will have to type this all out. (Have it written in a notebook, but haven't taken the time to type it all out on the computer as I have been wanting to do anyway... you just gave me the incentive I needed. TY!)

It should be up in *looks at list* 40 minutes as long as there are no interruptions haha. (give or take a few minutes due to my time given being a pure guesstimation)

reply to post by NatureBoy


Hi,

Okay, I got you. It's not that their laws have changed, but maybe some have the viewpoint that some of the laws need not be followed anymore. If that's the case, then that is a matter between them and God I'd say.

Thats before you get into the moral issues involved, they didn't live in a society anywhere near as complex as this 21century digital world, how could they have made laws which still make sense?

I think the only difference is the amount of immorality (anything causing harm to oneself or another) being presented in our more complex 21st century and they are hurled at us at a much faster rate perhaps making diligent judgment more difficult.

Mankind has had the same temptations throughout time... anger, murder, theft, and etc. Also, throughout time, mankind has had some greatest of humanitarians too. It's all there within us. It's just the story of the two wolves and which one we feed.

I wonder if the ripping arms off goats law which was extended to cover strangulation could also be extended to cover battery farmed meat, etc?

I would think so. Today's butchering practices are downright brutal and mean. Imagine the amount of (are they) hormones(?) those animals are excreting into their systems and absorbed by their muscles and tissues. Fear, fear ...the great creator of madness. The true opposite of love.

reply to post by justamomma


WOW!

How awesome!

I'm really looking forward to this!

Thank you!

[exclamation points off] LOL