Assumptions about Aliens we need to discuss.

Everyone assumes that inter-stellar space travel requires spacecraft capable of near lightspeed. Actually, it doesn't. If your culture has the resources available, and you are willing to wait, the stars are within reach.

For instance, let's say that you build a big space colony, something on the order of an O'Neil colony. Five miles long and half a mile wide cyllinder, spun for artificial gravity, with its own magnetic field.

You could put a small group of your civilians onboard and attach a solarsail or an ion engine and send it off into deep space. I envision whole fleets of vehicles being sent in a type of inter-stellar convoy. The convoy would be able to achieve a small fraction of the speed of light, maybe 5 percent. Not enough for relativity to be a factor.

Centuries later, the colonies arrive at a nearby solar system. A suitable planet is found and the colonies enter orbit. Over the next several decades, people and resources are deposited onto the planets surface. Once the colony is established on the planet, the spacecraft are refurbished, and sent to the next solar system for colonization.

So, the star systems are colonized one at a time in a stepping stone manner. After a few thousand years, hundreds of solar systems will have been colonized.

This is something that we could do with current levels of technology if we were willing to spend the money. Each of these space colonies would cost about a trillion dollars to build. The problem is that it is not a sexy idea. It's expensive, takes a long time, and nobody involved with the project at the beginning will live to see any payoff.

So, we don't find this method particularly viable, but who is to say that an alien race would come to the same conclusions? What if the aliens have developed space travel to the point that the colonies could be built for a few tens of billions of alien space bucks? What if the aliens have a life expectancy measured in centuries? What if the aliens can put themselves into a hybernation mode? If so, the aliens might consider a space colonization plan that we would find less than satisfactory.

Assumption 1. Aliens need our resources!

Aliens probably would not need space ships to go any 'speed' at all and so it would not take any 'time' at all. We already have instances where the UFOs seemingly just flash on (and they appear) and flash off (and disappear). If they travelled though time/space in this fashion, then the length of time taken to get from one galaxy to another would not be a limiting factor as it would be for us currently.

Assumption 2. We can trade with aliens!

These discussions are chock full of assumptions so I will make some of my own - building on yours to make the whole discussion even more flakey and far-out.

The only thing we have that could not be taken is DNA and spiritual evolution potential. What if the aliens had lost their evolution potential (back to 'God') and we humans still had ours? If the aliens had done something in the past that killed their potential to evolve then of course they would be searching all kinds of ways to re-connect. Including genetic modification, and going back in time to try and alter things, but as we all know, there are paradox problems with altering the past before you were born. Like on Red Dwarf when Lister tries to become rich by discovering a future invention.

I agree, why should the aliens not just clear out Earth and settle here? Because they need slaves? They can probably genetically engineer some far better and more obliging ones than humans who are unreliable at best.

They might even be living with us in another domension (like we see ghosts occasionally) in the same space. Technically, they are 'here' and have been 'here' for millions of years if this is the case. This would explain how they can pop in and out of our world.

Some people also say that the aliens live in deep underground bases (Phil Schneider claims they found one while digging 2 mile deep tunnels for the US military). I have been looking at the moon photographs from 40 years ago and there are signs of beings living up there.

Some people theorise that the earth is strategically placed and so this is prime real estate. Stretching things quite a lot, but if you buy into the humans-have-energy-centres idea, then planets probably have them too (which would account for the location of Stonehenge and other sacred sites).

Another 'if'. If planets have these energy centres then universes and galaxies probably have them also. Strategically placed means that the aliens cannot just blow up the earth and everyone on it, because they will lose their piece of real estate that they want/need.

Assumption 3. Aliens will invade us and we will fight them with guns and jet fighters!

We have plenty of evidence that the aliens are not nice guys, and what evidence do we have that they are nice guys? Maybe they need our co-operation at a governmental level.

Assumption 4. Aliens are basically exactly what is in star trek and babylon 5.

I have heard of the other non-human-looking aliens too, including beetles, wookies(yeti?), mantis, lizards, etc.
It could be that some of the human-like aliens were the major donators of some of our DNA and so we looked like them, not that they look like us.

Alien technology probably is far, far ahead of anything we have at the moment. For example some of the extinctions in the past could have been aliens battling over the real estate of Earth and not involving humans directly. Maybe one side is running the human experiment and the other side wants to take over the real estate, so both aliens fought over it.

reply to post by lunarminer


That is an interesting theory ; I just thought, what if they used the "Von-Neumann" machine idea, and sent out a few hundred probes which eventually became billions of trillions of probes etc to map out, monitor and transmit the entire galaxy back to some central location.

It could explain the random abductions and the nonsensical nature (taking body parts) and consistency of them. As machines would just go through the same operations over and over, maybe some actual sentient beings know we are here, but they are just getting continuous updates from their automates probes?

I'm willing to bet, if we were able to get enough samples of data on alien "abductions" or "sightings" we could develop some statistical significance,

The only problem is the data source, which would be HIGHLY unreliable, as many people who might provide the data points themselves would be lying, or "adding" to it.

If only there was a reliable way to get the following points of Data:
Type of abduction, Date / Time, Geographical area (within 50 kilometers)

Type = mutilation, visitation, abduction, abduction+return


With that data we could easily find patterns, and if there was a repeating pattern of some kind we could infer that we are just being automatically examined and watched by an automated system. As a sentient controller or designer of a specialized system for investigating us would try and learn our social behavior and monitor us differently.

So without that data, we don't know if we are being watched by automated drones, or if there is some sentient life out there watching us and making notes.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Davood]

reply to post by Davood


You idea has a couple of great benefits.

The first one is that it doesn't require a life support system and so the probes would be much smaller and more compact (read that as cheaper) than the space colony idea. The smaller probe could be more easily built and sent at a higher speed.

The next major benefit is that the further from the home solar system, the more probes and the greater the flow of information. So, the mapping of the Galaxy would accelerate as the project progressed. So, even if the probes were slow, the information flow would gradually increase. This is in keeping with the normal rules of computing power and storage space.

Originally posted by Davood
Assumption 4. Aliens are basically exactly what is in star trek and babylon 5

Go read Life Signs: The Biology of Star Trek by Robert Jenkins M.D. Ph.D
and Susan Jenkins M.D. Peace!

Originally posted by ozvulcan

Go read Life Signs: The Biology of Star Trek by Robert Jenkins M.D. Ph.D
and Susan Jenkins M.D. Peace!

I don't have access to that book right now, can you tell me in a nutshell what it talks about? If it is good info, maybe I will order a copy or visit the local library.

Am I correct in assuming that it explains that our general configuration is probably the configuration that would happen elsewhere?

Thanks!

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Davood]

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Davood]
sorry about the edits.. quoting seems to be brokenish.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Davood]

reply to post by Davood


I have to say that I am also very disappointed in most of the "aliens" in the Star Trek genre. I liked the original races OK, and I liked the fact that Rodenbary explained that they had a common origin. So, Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, and Humans, looked similar because we shared a common spacefaring ancestor.

Later on though, it seemed that each show needed to introduce an almost continuous stream of alien races. I think that the writters and the makeup artists got a bit lazy. It got to the point where I half expected them to glue a pencil eraser in the middle of the foreheads of a bunch of actors and introduce the "alien race" of Melanomans.

I am also not a big fan of the books like, "The Science of Star Trek". I think that Star Trek is good theatre but I don't look to it for much in the way of science. I also thought that it was strange that the Enterprise never encounterd the Grays, Mantis, or the Silver Clawed Crab People. They did encounter the Reptilians, which I did like.

I can imagine one thing that aliens perhaps would like to trade with us. That one thing is art. I see music as art btw so it is included.

However, even if they know all formulas of physics they surely haven't invented everything possible. We just might have some inventions they don't have. The main point of view that people really do not comprehend (usually) is that we can know a certain law of physics, but that it does not neccessarily follow that we have invented everything possible in realation to it. Same applies to any and all aliens.

Why do we even assume they care to trade, when they can simply get a sample device and copy it. Then change it to fit their needs and manufacture it. Could we sue them in some universal court for copyright infrigment?-D


[edit on 24/1/09 by rawsom]

reply to post by rawsom


Some have reported that the Grays are vegetarians but their planet has no equivalent of dairy products. They are reported to like strawberry ice cream. So, there you have a possible commodity that we could trade.

I'm sure that choclate and vanilla would also be very popular.

Originally posted by lunarminer
reply to post by rawsom

 

Some have reported that the Grays are vegetarians but their planet has no equivalent of dairy products. They are reported to like strawberry ice cream. So, there you have a possible commodity that we could trade.

I'm sure that choclate and vanilla would also be very popular.

Uhm.. hrmpf. Ok, food is another thing they may want to trade, given that they can even taste anything. I suppose they can, somehow, but there are other chemical means of knowing whether something is poisonous or not. I do believe that people who like strong, smelly cheese, are suicidal in nature.

humans work on the same principles as computers - garbage in, garbage out. As far as I am aware these aliens dont have orifices to let all the garbage out, do they?

reply to post by qmantoo


I'm pretty sure that any aliens that we would recognize as living creatures, have some method to injest food and expel wastes.

You are correct that the Greys are not supposed to have any genitalia but they must have a digestive system and a means of expelling spent food. Otherwise what is their mouth for? Since they are reported to be telepaths, they don't use their mouths to speak. If the reports are to be believed and that is a big if.

I am becomming somewhat skeptical about the Greys. This is one alien type whose development can be traced from the 1950s to the present. The size, color, motivations, and physical characteristics all seem to have changed and morphed with the pop culture expectations.

Originally posted by lunarminer
reply to post by qmantoo

 

I'm pretty sure that any aliens that we would recognize as living creatures, have some method to injest food and expel wastes.

You are correct that the Greys are not supposed to have any genitalia but they must have a digestive system and a means of expelling spent food. Otherwise what is their mouth for? Since they are reported to be telepaths, they don't use their mouths to speak. If the reports are to be believed and that is a big if.

I am becomming somewhat skeptical about the Greys. This is one alien type whose development can be traced from the 1950s to the present. The size, color, motivations, and physical characteristics all seem to have changed and morphed with the pop culture expectations.

The way the grays (who I am skeptical about) continually get portrayed is that of a race of creatures that "we" (humans) will eventually turn into.

Their description is that of a minimalist human, every new bit of information further supports that, people say they look like us but they don't have useless things like genitalia, or mouths, which a highly advanced civilization wouldn't need for survival as they would have evolved technologically enough to replace biological inefficiencies??? Even if it isn't true, it actually makes sense, assuming their basic silhouette/shape looks like us; they would only need a means to perceive the outside world and interact with their gadget(s) ?