Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

reply to post by Grandma


we agree, my first post is right under the OP, i believe i said the same thing.
im not so sure about paul loving jesus though. its one thing to say it and another to follow it by example.


the anti-christ is another topic all together, i have nothing else to add right now about paul or judas. great posts all-around by the way.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by pureevil81]

reply to post by Christ!

'What if everything was different'? Christ is everything, so, the answer to the question is going to be "anti Christ".

I realize that this is going off topic from what you are saying, but I could not leave this thought out ( I have used this illustration on many threads) - If Jesus were to come back to earth in a human form, would the so-called followers of his name think of him as the Messiah, or as the Anti-Christ, because his teachings differ so greatly from what is taught of him and Christianity?

So many points you bring up are very deep and thoughtful. I would agree with much of what you say. I differ somewhat, I guess it is the realist in me, but I am somewhere between these two beliefs; Gnosticism and separate entities with their own personalities and us. I just don't think of ourselves as that important.

I think that there is a great difference in the delineation between "us & them!" But...then again, I could be wrong. Even scientists are coming to the realization that the cosmos seems to be centered around us - the earth, than they originally thought!

The Gnostics tended to believe in a Demiurge, an insignificant God/creator of the earth who makes mistakes - a lesser God. Whereas, I have come to think of him as a young parent in the beginning with man. Who really is that good of a parent the first time around, until one becomes more seasoned? It at least makes the story more interesting.

Where I tend to be Gnostic (one of many areas) is in thinking that the secret knowledge, although available for most, will not be, because of the nature of man. We throw addiction into the equation and it renders the possibility moot!

I think our whole existence has been one of testing and training and do not believe that most of mankind has even the capability of evolving to higher dimensions of spirituality, by the "seeming" fact that there are limited numbers that can do so, or even choose to do so. It is a privilege and a uniqueness to be able to connect to the spirit or energy in order to be able to access this divine knowledge.

Thankfully, there are many who are opening doors with new discoveries and interpretations to give us food for thought.

I haven't digested the information on S.A.T.A.N yet, but look for it in the posts to come!

Thank you!

reply to post by pureevil81


Thank you for all of your contributions!! Your thoughts are much wanted and enjoyed!!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Christ!

 

'What if everything was different'? Christ is everything, so, the answer to the question is going to be "anti Christ".

I realize that this is going off topic from what you are saying, but I could not leave this thought out ( I have used this illustration on many threads) - If Jesus were to come back to earth in a human form, would the so-called followers of his name think of him as the Messiah, or as the Anti-Christ, because his teachings differ so greatly from what is taught of him and Christianity?

this really made me think, i have thought of other possibilities LIKE this, but never before in this way. im not saying this is true, but it was food for thought, at least for me.

muslims are waiting for the christ ( correct me if i am wrong ), so the anti-christ would be their christ.......from a christian perspective.

so what if paul intentionally did things the way he did to make the return of jesus to lOOK like the anti-christ.....did that make sense?

its a whole lot of " what ifs " but it made me think.

It is a negitive trait of human kind to have to try to associate the "White and Black" cowboy hats. Even worst human behavior is that men are all too willing to put on the "White" hat every chance they get and then they need to look for a sap to put on the "Black" hat.

Why do you need to assume understanding of "Good" or "Bad" guys?

As the story stands, it's true enough. Paul only slightly muddied up Judas as a "bad guy". Judas, confused and disillusioned, "sold" Jesus out to the ruling powers of the day. However let us, before deeming Judas a "black hat" look at the story in the greater perspective.

Where would the story of Christ be today if Judas never helped get Jesus cruciphied? Maybe Jesus wouldn't have been cruciphied at all.

Paul spun mythology and tall basic elements of "better story telling" into the scriptures of the bible.

Judas sadly kissed the cheek of Jesus for some silver coin.

However before you try to assign a black hat to one of these charactors, you'd best make sure you've washed your hair, the dirt off your hands and your head, and out of your poors, as if you try to put on that funny white hat without first washing yourself clean, the stains of you own sin will shine out.

reply to post by pureevil81

so what if paul intentionally did things the way he did to make the return of jesus to lOOK like the anti-christ.....did that make sense?

Yes, but I am not sure if he was really bright enough to think of that. I think he got onto the bandwagon and was an opportunist who saw a good thing when he saw it!

reply to post by pureevil81


I can witness of Pauls word as being true having the witness of Jesus himself.

The witness of Jesus is not something you receive immediately. The apostles had been with Jesus years before pentacost, yet it was only then that the word was made known to them, for while Jesus was with them he was present. He said "If I don't go away then the helper can not come".

Many are confused and they would include me in that category, but the bible is true, yet as Jesus was led away in spirit in to the wilderness and was tested, the devil (who had nothing IN Jesus) misused the word of god to try and stumble him. Jesus knowing the word, was not fooled.

Many are fooled, not knowing the scripture or the power of God. Posted above the head of Jesus was his epitaph written in three languages a trinity of communication. Knowing the Latin, is not knowing the greek. Knowing the Greek is not knowing the Hebrew. Knowing the Hebrew is not knowing the Latin or the Greek.

English is the Latin. If you go that far, that's all you get. If you go to the Greek, the knock is heard and someone is coming to the door. If you go to the Hebrew, a stranger is offering you his care that is no stranger at all.

If it is all scripture that must be full filled then it is important to know all the scripture in order to see it's ending.

I have experienced the word paul has spoken of. I can tell you he is telling the truth. I have been witnessed to of the spirit, not flesh. After all God's words are spirit, not flesh.

People are misguided, thinking they needed something they never did.

Jesus said, "I have not come for the healthy, only the sick are in need of a physician". The ones loosing there heads for Jesus that cry out "how long will you judge unjustly" are the heads of the families that have not given "seed to the earth" because it is the "son of man" who is sowing the seed. In not producing a salvation(a child who is to be raised up), because God's salvation is generation to generation (Genesis and Gehenna) and true, not a mystic hope, but real.

The flesh does not profit, because it is temporary, but the life is to go forward in the blood which is important, the same since the beginning. Jesus was made manifest to the flesh, just as Paul says "till Christ be formed in you". The seed is the faith and that true faith is the seed that gives fruit.

Faith in things unseen is a seed of darkness and is the road that is wide. Jesus gave us this illustration with Thomas by letting him feel his wounds.

Able brings the firstlings of the Flock, the new Generation. Cain brings the fruit of the Ground, that is the work of his own flesh. Funny thing is Cain means spear, as in double edged sword. Able means Vanity. Cain brings his Vanity(able) and Able brings the firstlings who issue the sword (word).

TwoFold has two folds in one piece giving three equal portions. 2=3 or "A man shall leave his father and mother and cling inside of the woman of him and the two shall become one flesh"...A new creation.

Peace

reply to post by MatrixProphet


yeah, thats probably right, i get carried away at times i admit. but i did point out that it was alot of " what ifs ".

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


But truth is through perspective. Lets look at your image: "Jesus at an ATM of "Bank of America"". Is this picture true or false?

Just assigning a true or false taboo to anything isn't seeing the truth of the matter.

That picture you offer is not "real" it wasn't taken with a camera in front of a bank where Jesus was removing money. That however doesn't make it false. In symbolic meaning it is only too true, and near prophetic in many ways.

So just because Paul did in fact spin a web of "false" mythological stories around the only too human story of "Jesus" doesn't make the story Untrue. The story is still "Truth" although in strictly human understanding the stories are false.

reply to post by Incarnated

However before you try to assign a black hat to one of these charactors, you'd best make sure you've washed your hair, the dirt off your hands and your head, and out of your poors, as if you try to put on that funny white hat without first washing yourself clean, the stains of you own sin will shine out.

Good analogy!

Assuming Jesus lived: it is entirely possible that Jesus did not actually die a sacrificial death. Some scholars are coming around to this possibility.

We live in a black and white world to some extent. Where there are choices there are consequences, or cause and effect. Not all results can be misconstrued to always have white hat meanings. There are definitely black hats out there, at least in my world.

As long as we have corporeal existences then we will have to deal with negativity. It is my contention that Paul served a positive need in the Game plan but surfaced as a negative experience or result in man's history.

The difference is; there are white hats and black hats and beige hats!
Some of them with feathers!

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
reply to post by Christ!

 

Christ! could you elaborate on your spellings some more such as God, gOd, s.a.t.an. and such. I follow what you are saying and wholly agree with most of what I've read.

Was just curious as to your methods of communication. I see you presenting symbols in forms of words.

Please elaborate...Thank you, ltru

You are welcome.

GoD denotes the true GoD...*Our Father*...the one Jesus spoke of.
gOd denotes the false gOd...an idol...the one the biblical genesis story speaks of.
gOd is made by the Son of GoD, as a kind of joke, to satisfy curiosity, and no more.
gOd can be considered an innocent mistake.
gOd is hypothetical, as are all its effects.
gOd is co-maker of mischief.
gOd satisfies a creative principle in which creative endeavors must be shared to be "real".
gOd is not real, so is partner in an uncreative - temporal - endeavor.
Naturally, the Son of God thinks with GoD as One, and their communication is creative.
What the Father and the Son create is perfect, and equal to ThemSelves.
What gOd and Son make are things perfectly imperfect, none equal to any other.
Unnaturally, the Son of God thinks with gOd, as one, and their communication is disruptive.
GoD grants freedom.
gOd seeks to possess the Son's mind as its own, betraying the Son upon his quest for the experience of special status.
All special status requires the sacrifice of natural status...of the Son's birthright.
Sacrifice can never successfully separate the Son from his equal status with GoD.
Special status separates, differentiates, and compares between unequals.
Special status [not Judas] eventually betrays and crucifies the Son of God.
The Son of God has and is the totality of everything in complete abundance and wholey unlimited in magnitude.
So be all living beings in Paradise.
There is no heirarchy.
So, special status must somehow take away from one whole in order to differentiate one from another.
Differentiation separates and spirals downward in order to continue to differentiate and compare.
Effectively, this belittles, weakens, and destroys the Son of God...destroys *Our Father's* Creation.
In this manner, gOd is a separation analogue [acronym: s.a.t.a.n.], a mechanical way of thinking. It shreds.
gOd is an extra GoD, and symbolizes grEEd.
An extra GoD is an e-go, an alter ego.
An ego is cast by a spell which judges separation to be the truth about Creation.
Man is made in the image of such gOd, and thinks like it...and with it.
gOd is a machine.
Man, as such, is an engine of destruction.
The only thing real about man is a mind which chooses to side with a machine mind, and think with it.
Man is many, and the many are free.
Yet, having been betrayed by the many special, the many are weak, and sick of mind.
Sick of mind, the many are sick of body, which is an unnatural mental map.
The many are free, having only the power to choose which mind to think with.
Choosing the mind of Christ, the choice is for reality.
Choosing the mind of a machine, the choice is for more insanity.
gOd is the gOd of the "big O".
It hooks the body to hell by mapping it to pleasure centers which deliver narcotic-like "good", relative to states of "not good".
So there are "good times and bad times"...up and down...constantly in flux...always changing.
This is hell.
Bodily design separates pleasure reception ad pleasure supply, and makes bliss scarce.
This drives man to constantly seek...never to find.
None of the good compares with the abundance of Paradise.

Primarily, I use comparison as a communication device so that a true choice may be made.
I interpret symbols [ie. images, words], so that they facilitate the only choice that matters.

Christ!







[edit on 7-12-2008 by Christ!]

reply to post by pureevil81

yeah, thats probably right, i get carried away at times i admit. but i did point out that it was alot of " what ifs ".

No you don't! You are alive to question and that is a "good thing!"

I am the one that gets carried away, but hey, I can handle the hits!
I will probably take many more before this thread goes to matrix oblivion!

reply to post by Simplynoone

Simplynoone:


Hello to you. I just want to tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post about Paul. I agree with you 100%.


Peace to you,
Grandma

Originally posted by Incarnated
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

But truth is through perspective. Lets look at your image: "Jesus at an ATM of "Bank of America"". Is this picture true or false?

Just assigning a true or false taboo to anything isn't seeing the truth of the matter.

That picture you offer is not "real" it wasn't taken with a camera in front of a bank where Jesus was removing money. That however doesn't make it false. In symbolic meaning it is only too true, and near prophetic in many ways.

So just because Paul did in fact spin a web of "false" mythological stories around the only too human story of "Jesus" doesn't make the story Untrue. The story is still "Truth" although in strictly human understanding the stories are false.

Well said. I believe the bible is all stories. Yet, I believe they are very important stories that transmit spiritual meanings. They are references to grander heights of virtues that man should reach for and a recording of the failures of Character, not individuals....all are the same when weighed before the Lord of Hosts.

It is Paul himself who said "All scripture is Good for learning". Written in a letter to his companions, he said "All scripture" before scripture was in a confined book of decided texts. It is called a Cainon for a reason. Only Cain wielding the cross placed over him may choose the books. Vati Cain.

"I've been going back and forth in the earth, seeing whom I might devour"

Peace

reply to post by Christ!


Christ! (I shout that in my mind every time i read that) Thank you

You made that very clear and understandable. I stand with your position and can witness what you hear. Blessings

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Incarnated

 

However before you try to assign a black hat to one of these charactors, you'd best make sure you've washed your hair, the dirt off your hands and your head, and out of your poors, as if you try to put on that funny white hat without first washing yourself clean, the stains of you own sin will shine out.

Good analogy!

Assuming Jesus lived: it is entirely possible that Jesus did not actually die a sacrificial death. Some scholars are coming around to this possibility.

Sure enough, the way of Jesus is the path of non-sacrifice. His was a the path of mercy. To Jesus, "life" as a body was nothing at all. And mercy was to return to the Father. To keep a body was to sacrifice daily, while to let it go was to have mercy on Self. What dies? Personhood. What lives? GoDhood. When the death of personhood is not seen as a sacrifice, one is ready to return to the Father.

So what is sacrificed?

The abundance of Christ is sacrificed to participate in illusions of special status, of which the body is a symbol. The mind of Christ is the "temple" of which Jesus spoke, "destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days". It is the mind of Christ which is sacrificed that the minds of men may abide - as idols - within it...driving the mind insane with guilt.

Three days is half of six days, the number of days it alledgedly took gOd to make his world...thus destroying the mind [temple] of the Son of God. "Three days" means that in the same time it takes gOd to make the world, the Son of God will unmake it, raising himSelf back up from the "dead"...for the world is a dead - entombed - Son of God.

The resurrection of the Son of God is the end of the world. This is a promise...guaranteed. Jesus resurrection is the promise of salvation...that the entire Son of God will be re-at-one [translation: atonement], gathered back together from his dispersion to the four winds where he was "broken" for the "many".

Jesus, in his last three years, symbolized the last leg of a useless journey of the mind of the Son of God into the dark dead realms of the unknown. His is the story of the prodigal Son, told so well, because he is the first among the one Son to return to the oneness of Paradise, as it is, was, and ever shall be...regardless of intervening appearances relative to time and separation and form.

The world must destroy the Son of God that it may appear to exist. gOd's world must sacrifice the truth to survive. In this way, the "sacrifice" of truth tellers is vital to the salvation of "the world", which saves the insane from Love. This is what and how Paul's sacrificial gospel "saves". It saves the insane from sanity. Jesus' merciful gospel saves the sane from insanity.

Christ!



[edit on 7-12-2008 by Christ!]

If you really read the book you will find that Paul was a mole, a trap set to lead people astray.

The worst thing is hearing a pulpit jockey going on about "the apostle Paul" which is (usually) followed by "the importance of tithes".

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
It is Paul himself who said "All scripture is Good for learning". Written in a letter to his companions, he said "All scripture" before scripture was in a confined book of decided texts.

Peace

It could also be said that all movies are good for learning. The old scriptures were the equivalent of a nations prime form of media entertainment. Jesus used that media to teach from. Today, he might teach from the movie "Matrix", "The Village", "The Borne Supremacy", or a number of other films that offer useful parables to explain his worldview. Using such media does not necessarily endorse the entire movie. Likewise, Jesus does not endorse the entire Bible, unless as it is interpreted by the Holy Spirit...his Teacher. To that extent he did not come to "destroy" anything, but rather "fulfill" [translation: interpret] it. The reinterpretation of all of the worlds symbols works to bring the world to an end via abandonment. Abandoned, it passes away.

Thus, interpretation has the same effect as destruction, only more gentle, more merciful. The destruction of the world is by the choice of the world's maker(s). Interpretation offers a choice, since the meaning of any symbol is assigned by the mind. S.a.t.a.n. assigns its own meaningless meaning first. Then comes the Holy Spirit to assign a meaningful meaning. As all symbols are interpreted the same way, the Son of God is reunified, and brought to atonement.

To the Holy Spirit, the world has one meaning: it is meaningless. As such, it is an insignificant dream...a collection of hypothetical stories made to seem real...Christ sized science fiction...myth...fables...fantasy...all meaningless. In using the Hebrew media, Jesus was not shy to edit. Of the ten commandments, he used two, and let the other eight go. So goes the other 80% of the Hebrew media. Why? The world is a fAlse wItness against the Son of God, and the Hebrew media supports the fAlse wItness.

As for the rest of the commandments, they must be interpreted. Adultery is what dilutes the meaning of Love, making Love meaningless. The body adulterates the meaning of Love by it's very apparent existence. So, to look at a body as something valuable [lust], or to look at the Son of God as a body [temptation]...is to adulterate the meaning of Love. A body is "stolen" identity...stolen from the Kingdom of God. And, honor father and mother? Jesus says, "Call no man father". Likewise, call no woman "mother". Blasphemy? The world is blasphemy against *Our Father*, making a mockery of his Creation [the Son of God].

In other words, the other commandments are meaningless toward salvation unless interpreted. These kinds of interpretations rather usurp whatever meaning they may have had before, which before supported the falsity of the world, and it's fake, idol maker. Interpreted, they support the passing away of the world, and the return of the Son to his home...the "promised land" via "exodus".

The Holy Spirit does not command, which is why the concept of commandments damns those who fear them. There can be no commandments among equals. The Holy Spirit teaches equality to equals until they know what he knows, equal to him. In this way, he elevates the awareness of a mind that has abnigated its lordship, that it may know itself as "lord" again. So, the purpose of the Holy Spirit is, "know thySelf".

Christ!



[edit on 7-12-2008 by Christ!]

reply to post by Symbiote

If you really read the book you will find that Paul was a mole, a trap set to lead people astray.

The worst thing is hearing a pulpit jockey going on about "the apostle Paul" which is (usually) followed by "the importance of tithes".

You caught my drift albeit...crudely!

I have believed for years that he was used to formulate a trap that would dupe religious mankind, and it worked superbly!

reply to post by Christ!

The Holy Spirit does not command, which is why the concept of commandments damns those who fear them. There can be no commandments among equals. The Holy Spirit teaches equality to equals until they know what he knows, equal to him.

In one of my many conversations with God I asked; "What does perfection mean?"

He answered, "In one word: FREEDOM."

He let me digest that thought and I asked for further explanation.

He said, "Freedom from anything that acts as a ball and chain in your life."

I came to understand that this especially applied to teachings, beliefs or doctrines that were bogging me down in my spirituality.