What's the obsession with poor-bashing here?

Almost every one of us is a contributor to a capitalistic system. Capitalism ensures there are poor people; it's part of its structure. So why on Earth would we bash something we all helped make? Don't make no sense to me.

[edit on 23-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
there is all this sentimentality about poor people
based on the leftover idea that all people are equal, because we are all children of god, and we all have souls
but there is no god, and we are animals, and we can do what we like
and for most purposes, people are not equal, some persons are okay, most are garbage
and when we consider poor people as a group, statistically, they are stupider than rich people
IQ is the governor of future income, more so than parental income, as in THE BELL CURVE
poverty is not a tragedy, it is strict justice
compassion is not a virtue, it's just creepy kicks for the practitioners
IF SUFFERING WAS UNNECESSARY IT WOULD NOT BE SO EASY evolutionarily, that is

and I make ten bucks an hour, thank you very much

There's so much wrong with this post that I almost don't know where to start. Almost:

1) We are not children of God, God is an integral part of us, the life energy that flows through our body and gives it substance. We have a soul in the sense our experiences matter and enrich the universe and, if we so chose, we have the unlimited ability to enrich ourself till we rejoin source. At least that's how I think this all works, but you're free to be a nihilist if you wish to suffer a self defeating philosophy.

2) Most people are great. However we live in a capitalist and materialist society that promotes competition and artificial scarcity as well as crime, lies and ignorance. In this context the definition of success is pathological and a lot of the people at the top of the pyramid are indeed garbage. But the poor, at least a great portion of them, are indeed good people, just unfortunate(?) to not be successfull in this fool's folly we call capitalism. We are all equal in the sense we have god's spark inside all of us, we are all capable of love. But some turn their back on it, and that, in my book, is the definition of bad. Self denial, disconnection from one's true nature.

3) So the rich people that plot the death of most of mankind are smart? So the rich people that, via corporate madness, destroy the rain forrests are smart? So the rich people that have one butt but 20 cars are smart? So the rich people that spend 20 000$ on a wristwatch and would not spend 1000$ to help the poor in the region are smart? So the rich who are dead inside and live in constant stress and anger at not having people who work hard enough for them to take the money off the top are smart? No, they do many a dumb thing.

4) Also, IQ is a meaningless statistic. You'd be surprised how many high IQ people are not motivated by physical wealth and don't really care to be tested. I've tested as high as 142 and could potentially get into mensa, but why would I bother to do that? All those tests do is test my aptitude to test intelligence tests, nothing more, nothing less. Real intelligence imo has three components, IQ, which is basic logic and problem solving skills, EQ, or emotional quoficient, which is the motivational intelligence, where we can see how one's emotions guides one's actions into happy outcomes and a more subtle Intuitive intelligence, which would be the connection of the human being to nature, empathy, a sense of being linked to the broader biological systems, and perhaps even the physical universe. Only when those three variables are high would you have a really complete individual. And sorry, this has nothing to do with his bank balance or property rights. You can be one of the most advanced people on this planet and be destitute. The Bell Curve dosen't even come close to this reality.

5) Property is an illusion, we don't own nature, it owns us. Take care of nature and it takes care of you. Trample on it and bad things, sooner or later, will happen.

6) Everything has it's negative. If there were not suffering would you understand the concept of bliss? However, where you position yourself on that bipolar scale is your choice and your responsability.

7) Think about what I told you here and you may just evolve a bit

Peace.

Originally posted by ZepherianReal intelligence imo has three components, IQ, which is basic logic and problem solving skills, EQ, or emotional quoficient, which is the motivational intelligence, where we can see how one's emotions guides one's actions into happy outcomes and a more subtle Intuitive intelligence,

You are right, motivational intelligence has a lot to do with success. The typical entrepreneur that strikes it rich is not a genius, their average iq is around 120 or something, but they are extremely motivated. If anything their moderate iq is a benefit because they are more likely to be optimistic and not focus on the possible pitfalls of new endeavors.

On the lower end of the scale you better believe iq matters. Very few people with an iq of 85 are going to be all that successful in a monetary sense, and yes 85 is actually "average" for specific segments of Americas poor population. They may be able to hold down a decent low level job but they don’t have the mental juice to effectively compete in modern western society. Maybe in Africa they can open a fruit stand and do just fine, but if you are one full standard deviation below the rest of the populace it is going to affect your life and your income level.



[edit on 23-10-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Zepherian


With all due respect, "says you".

reply to post by dave420


Says the Universe, I'm just the middleman

All that I have said can be individually experienced, so please, do not take my word for it. Do however at least keep an open mind. I'm not selling anything here nor do I want a donation.

reply to post by Sonya610


Low IQ's are as much the school systems and society at large's fault as they are the students. Probably the former more than the latter even. Some students just can't be bothered or are just emotionally closed up and as such don't manifest their true intelectual potential. Others are just more dancers, builders, fixers, growers than abstract thinkers. Why do we focus so much on abstract thinking skills, especially since there is so little evidence they produce better societies?

Besides, a lot of those 85 IQ percentile can do a much greater range of manual labour tasks than your average 160 IQ ivery tower bookmonkey. If anything they are more usefull for it, and you're still using your brain, even if you're just unclogging a toilet. Joe the plumber reference there, heh.

My point is basically that IQ could potentially be used as a measure to see how "well" one functions in this society, I guess, but since society itself is pathological and counter productive, who cares? Being well adjusted to a post modern militarist capitalist hellhole is a sign of mental dysfunction, imho.

Being poor more than once myself, those who have never gone through hard times have no idea what its like to pull out from under that, and they never will because those who are born with the golden spoon in their mouths do not have to worry about economic situations because they can absorb high interest rates, high gas prices, high costs of living, thus have no clue as to how to recever from major looses like jobs or investments that take everything down to and below zero.

Its the old saying, if you have never had your butt in the grass you have no idea what it takes or how hard it is to recover because your hind end will never see that level of living.

But you know the best part about being poor is that those who are poor tend to be quite stronger in the ability to survivie. They can do without all the glitter and glamour and irrelevant "things" that rich people must have to show off their status, which none of that will be of any use if it came down to everyone having to depend on their skills and ability to survive in a major disaster or crisis.

The poor are more aware of things around them than any rich person will ever be. The only thing rich people know about is high price ticket items, dollar signs and the next fad to have. They would be helpless in a disaster and would be the first to cry wolf when it came right down to knowing how to live without credit cards and shopping malls.

The rich always seem to want more, more of what they already have in excess of. The poor simply want to survive, and yes they would also like a taste of the nice life. But the poor do not follow tactics that drive off others so that they are the only players on the lot, like the rich tend to do. How rich does rich need to be anyway? There is but one word for it...GREED.

If there ever is a major economic disaster, just remember, that the rich will have FAR more to loose than any poor person will ever have to loose.

And who do you think will be able to live through loosing it all when it all does come crashing down...the rich?...or the poor?

Its a no brainer.


Cheers!!!!!

Originally posted by Zepherian
Why do we focus so much on abstract thinking skills, especially since there is so little evidence they produce better societies?

What planet do you live on? You obviously know nothing about the differences in iq throughout the world, as it has EVERYTHING to do with the quality of society. And yes I mean everything, life expectancy, standard of living, crime levels, EVERYTHING.

Do some research instead of buying into the PC nonsense that says "it is all an illusion, iq means nothing". In the real world it means everything. The countries with the HIGHEST standards of living have the HIGHEST iq's. The inverse is also true. It always has been and it always will be. It is not the media, it is not the evil rich, it is not the NWO, it is simply reality.

reply to post by LostNemesis



Did'nt you know....rich people deserve to be rich and us poor scum are lucky we are allowed to polish their boots.

IMO...rich people are scum ! I have an absolute hatred towards the rich....because they got that way on the backs of the poor and they treat lesser classes like trash.

I would not lift a finger to help some rich snot in any way........rich guy getting mugged...TOO BAD !....rich guy lost his house to a tornado....HA HA !......rich guy got cancer....OH WELL !.....etc......

Poor people work just as hard if not harder than the rich and get crap for it.........If it were up to me all rich people would get their silver spoons crammed down their throats till they died.







( if you don't like my view of rich people.......TOO BAD ! )






[edit on 23-10-2008 by Alpha Grey]

There are two different kinds of "poor".

Those that work their asses off at one or more minimum wage jobs, pay taxes and need a couple bucks for food or heat but are denied because they have earned $2.00 over the allowed "gross poverty income"...therefore they get nothing.

The second "poor" are those who milk the system, refuse to work, or even attempt to work, pay no taxes who get every government benefit available, while sitting home watching Jerry Springer puffing their way through the carton of smokes that the taxpayers just bought for them.

(My brother in law, who has been on ssi for thirty freaking years because of doing too many drugs in the 70's)

Two completely different forms of poverty.

This topic pertained to poor bashing from what I recall and now we're discussing IQ and the poor which I find to be a very interesting segue.

IQ as with all tests have a significant amount of weight upon the test taker themselves.
What if you or I took an IQ test printed in Mandarin Chinese ? We'd be deemed an idiot unless of course you were able to read and comprehend Mandarin Chinese.

Monetary gain in our current system has quite a bit to do with how you play the game in our system as well as Who you know and not necessarily with What you know.

Case Study:
The rapper, "50 Cent".
Demographically speaking he's born poor in the ghetto, mother's an addict.
Attended his local ghetto education system without graduating from High School. Sold drugs on the street.
I'm fairly certain, using our standardized tests for SAT he would probably rank below average. Just based upon his having attended the relatively poor educational institutions of his local domicile.
According to our standardized tests, and system of judgment he'd be deemed an idiot with a below average IQ.

But, he's a self made multi millionaire. Why ?
Why ? Because he bucked the system which enslaves all of us.

I'm going to step in and say,

Some of the "smartest" people I know in terms of IQ also happen to be the "stupidest" in terms of EQ and just plain common sense.

IQ is memorizing facts and finding patterns. Monkeys can do that. A truly "Smart" person has the trappings of a high IQ, but also a good grasp of how to apply them. So I think IQ levels, to a certain point, are very misleading.

reply to post by Sonya610


If you reread my post you'll realise I threw the standard out of the window. What you consider high standards of living is an illusion, a bunch of zombies wading around in a chemical daze. So we won't have an agreement there because I can't see as a reference what you claim is a reference. Many people in "poorer" countries lead happier lives, at least untill the negative aspects of western neo colonialism trashes their nations and environments.

Not only that but I also broke the link between IQ and intelligence, so there's no point in trying to convince me people of a developed nation are smarter than people of a poor one, as either out of their environment would probably not survive long.

IQ is only relevant when you have to calculate how much you still owe on your mortgage and the probability of the banking cartel crashing the economy before you can pay it, true intelligence is living free on god's green earth and oweing nothing to anyone but your loved ones.

Do you see now how our perspectives on this elusive thing called reality differ?

Originally posted by nh_ee
Case Study:
The rapper, "50 Cent".

Uhhh...yeah. He is a rapper. There are also plenty of professional athletes that are dumb as dirt and making millions a year.

If they can throw a ball well or chant into a microphone they are fine, if they lose that skill they would be working at McDonald's (or living off of welfare, or selling drugs!)

Originally posted by Zepherian
Many people in "poorer" countries lead happier lives, at least untill the negative aspects of western neo colonialism trashes their nations and environments.

Yeah, a bunch of simple but happy villagers smiling, singing, and enjoying a tranquil life.

Soaring levels of infant mortality, malnutrition, illiteracy and conditions of absolute poverty prevail for large sections of African populations. In Ghana, the unembellished metrics of the World Development Report translate into one in every ten children dying before the age of five years; in Zambia, it is almost one in five. Malnutrition affects from between one-third to a half of all children in just about any given sub-Saharan country. This is exacerbated and sustained by lack of access to clean water, particularly among rural communities.

And before you even start to say "oh thats the fault of the west". Truth is in many African cultures men eat first, and they eat the best foods, and their children eat whatever is left over. During famine the men survive and the children die. Custom means most of the men do not even work, they sit around and chat all day while their wives tend the animals and the fields. That "custom" that systematically produces malnourished kids helps to compound an already extremely low iq as the lack of protein stunts their brain development.

In addition, disease and clean water is a major concern because in many areas they simply poop wherever they feel like. Yes, happens in rural india too. They never figured out maybe they should dig a HOLE and poop in it, instead they poop like animals and then walk in it and contaminate every water supply with it and thereby do their best to spread disease and parasites as far and fast as possible. Is that the fault of western colonialism too? Perhaps they told them to do that.



[edit on 23-10-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610


You need to watch Chris Rock talking about his dad and "the good piece of chicken". All you said about other cultures can be found in western cultures, and all cultures tend to exagerate the faults of other cultures to make themselves feel better about their own elitist sponsored mediocrity.

You'd be surprised at how complex "the simple life" can be. Travel a bit, get around and wake up to the world around me, you seem to have a worldview which is born more out of CNN and BBC, and dare I say ego, than actual experience.

Of course there is crap in other cultures, but you need to weigh in everything on both sides of the comparison to get a valid overview, and imo you are not quite there yet, which is why I do not agree with your position.

But it is your position, the desire and initiative to change it are out of my sphere of influence, so I leave it to your own judgement.

And Jesus said unto Simon, It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, for the rich care for themselves, and despise them that have not.

I know of men, who live in the woods. Who have gone without food for as many as 39 days. Who have one pair of clothes, no phone, or ID, and are without state assistance.

Some of these men, most of the time are completely normal, and another portion of the time exhibit signs of mental illness.

Not all people are in complete control of their lives. And what person reading this can say that they are entirely in control of their own life? Your mortgage bank, country or kids? We all effect one another. Your in control, right up until circumstances for one reason or another are out of your hands.

I once had a dream in which I saw a small group of trees. One of the trees within was wilted yet the others around it appeared to be fine.
I said, " let there be water for all the trees" and then stopped. I said " correction. " Let there be water for each tree according to its need "

God speaks to us in dreams. The question is whether you are listening.

It is in giving water to each of us as living beings according to our need that we become healthy. That which is freely given, should be freely shared.

While one can argue professional poor, I might argue a system lacking compassion. After all, many of the poor, have no regular meal, or regular housing. As a businessman, would you hire them? They might smell, or steal out of need, or even have an occasional beer. To what standard would you hold them until their condition improves?

Jesus calls us to do or not do to the least of our brother as we would do unto ourselves. The apple tree and the cherry tree, the berry bush the fish, do not concern themselves or limit their availability. It is they who control the land, and the resources that create a system in which no man, can buy or sell or trade without a number.

The store or restaurant that throws food away behind their business in full sight of those that need in front on their sidewalk.

The professional poor may be, but more predominately are the poor and the depressed. Those without hope, and are lacking even the most basic of essentials such as ID even to cash a check.

I ask any of you who read this, to go sit with the homeless. Not all will talk, And many will be ashamed. Not for a day, or two, but week after week. Go out into your neighborhood and walk. Get to know them, and listen to their story.

Many of the most destitute, are looking merely to stay alive. Wondering where their next meal will come from and whether they will be able to withstand the winter cold.

1 Timothy 6:8
If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content.

Do they drink? Do you drink? I might propose that many of us in a down and out situation might drink more then our normal amount.

The poor need love just like anyone else. And we need to open our heart and not worry about being taken advantage of. After all, we as Americans have seen the richest of the rich open their hand out to us for a bailout in which they in no way find themselves in the position of the destitute. A new professional poor? It makes me sick to even think about it.

Matthew 25
Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

Love one another. Its the right thing to do, and a command of Jesus Christ. And for those that do not believe, put yourself in the shoes of the less fortunate, or one who has made some poor decisions. Their may be a day when the roles are reversed, and the homeless man who has become wealthy, will lend his hand out to you, and say walk with me.


Peace


[edit on 23-10-2008 by HIFIGUY]

something to consider about poor people accepting hand outs.

do they have a choice? yes sort of, but is there enough room for everybody to earn a livable wage without extra help? there will always be poor people in the current system we have. all that happens is some people swap roles, some get out of it whilst others fall into it(bare that in mind, who knows what the future holds for you).

i'm not a believer in taking what better of people have earned and spreading it out. however i don't see what choice the currently poor and future poor have other than accept extra hand outs to survive.

everbody is forced into the system, everbody needs money to do anything.
all the land is bought by somebody, and there is lots of legislation saying you cannot hunt here or fish there you must have a lisence etc etc.

so how can the poor stop taking hand outs and live of the land? they car'nt, they are enslaved to the system like everbody else.

they cannot just go and live somewhere sustainable and build there own little village, unless they are rich, to buy the land back their ancestors use to roam freely.

maybe it is possible in the U.S.? its a bigger country, but it certainly is'nt viable in the U.K.

even if it were, you'd get lots of complaints from nearby residents and you'll be hassled where ever you go.

the only way to provide for yourself is with work, and the poor people CANNOT help how much wages are paid, or how many jobs their are compared to unemployed.

now those that don't want to work sure you could say they should suffer and provided for themselves, but please tell me how that is possible.

they cannot go and live like tribes people without some legislation preventing it, (for a start they would loose their children) or no land is available.

maybe poor people do want to support themselves but have no choice but to take handouts untill they are better off.

if we are to say they should support themselves, then give them some land with sustainable resources. otherwise what people are encouraging is leaving people to starve to death.

I guess it is more fun/less risky to pick on people who can't sue your house out from under you or even take any legal action - because they are too poor ! RoFLMAO!

The Poor are the New Blacks. It's not about race anymore. It's about financial status.