The reason the church is afraid of Science

ok first of all. the church isn't afraid of science, if anything the church encourages science. also you can't just say that of christians when the only difference between christianity and judaism is that christians accept christ as the messiah. jews believe in creationism too. the bible has predicted tons of major events that have happened and it also teaches the best moral code ever assembled. you can't blame all the bad doings of the church on the religion itselft, you have to blame it on the people who do the actions and interpret the book wrong. christianity doesn't teach you to force your religion upon other people, it's the big churches that do that for money. there are small churches that are established for good instead of profit.

Christianity, Islam, and the Jewish religions are all fear based. If you don't believe what is prescribed by the religion they all say you will burn in HELL eternally. Nothing to fear there, huh.

I hope you realize that the Catholic Church is not anti-science. In fact, the late Pope John Paul II worked to make it the official stance of the Catholic Church that evolution IS true, factual science.

Also, there are cardinals and others close to the Vatican who have stated their belief (as well as others in the Church) that alien life MUST exist elsewhere in the Universe. One of these priests comes on Coast to Coast AM occasionally.

So please don't say "the Church" in future threads. On this topic, it makes you look ignorant, as the Catholic Church is pro-science while mostly Protestant denominations (though not all of them) are not.

reply to post by ElFulanoZutano

the church isn't afraid of science, if anything the church encourages science.

I find this hard to believe, especially when the Catholic Church (the largest denomination) has only just recently issued a public apology to Galileo, and has only just recently embraced evolution. The Church of England has only in the past month issued an apology to Darwin. Then of course you have the many many other faiths and denominations which denounce science, such as many in the Islamic faith and Evangelical and Baptist Christians. Some even going so far as to formulate strategies such as the Wedge Document that openly admit to trying to hamstring science and education.

the bible has predicted tons of major events that have happened

The major events it predicts are either all found within the bible, are too vague to be considered accurate, or were expected to happen at one time or another anyhow. It would have been easy to make predictions based on certain events such as the ending of the Slave trade in America, that America will fall as the #1 super power, that Barack Obama will have at least one assassination attempt if he wins. Etc. Some of those prophecies are self-fulfilling by the actions of the believers in the prophecy. One could see the current uni-laterial support of Israels expansion into Palestinian territory as fulfillment of prophecy, but it's only because people in power and lobbying groups know of the prophecy and are working to make it come to pass.

None of this lends creedance to the prophecy itself.

it also teaches the best moral code ever assembled.

No, it doesn't. Along with the good bits of sound moral advice, the bible also advocates genocide, slavery, abuse of women, abuse of children, and other abominations. That we are able to take the good bits of moral rightness from the bible and ignore the heinous atrocities and barbarism says alot about where we get our morals. Because it sure as hell isn't from the bible itself. Nor is it god if you assume that the god of the bible is the one true god and the bible is his perfect word. We get our morals from our society, our families and communities. That we can pick through the bible buffet style and take the good bits while ignoring the bad means that the bible is not the source of morality.

An example...

A. J. Jacobs: My year of living Biblically


The above video is a wonderful foray into both the good, the bad, and the outright weird laws of the bible - albeit not as much attention is focused on the bad because in modern day society, many of the god's laws will land you in prison or death row and the speaker did not want to turn an experiment into a criminal record. However, his final point is very clear. The bible can be a wonderful source of self-betterment provided you PICK AND CHOOSE which parts to follow and which to discard.

My question, reiterated, is - taking the above into account, how can the bible be considered a moral compass for humanity if humanity has to pick and choose which parts of it are right and moral? That indicates that we already have the moral compass inside of each of us, and the bible is irrelevant in that regard.

If you want a bit more in-depth look at the heinous and immoral parts of the bible, I suggest "An Honest Search for Truth" video series. An example of which:

AHSFT Pt 1: Introduction & Slavery


[edit on 2-10-2008 by Lasheic]

actually sighting the Bible is a little out dated according to the prophets of God Mohammed's message is more current than that of Jesus.

If you'd like to go one step further look at the Bahai faith, which is the message for the new age of man kind.

Written in the 1800's it confirms many scientific theories before they were even discovered or proposed, ie Different Dimensions, our increased knowledge of the atom and nuclear fission.

It cofirms the messages of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed. Shows what people have been saying for a while now how it's all the same religion that has progressed through time. It also speaks of the cycles and ages of man also helping to confirm the 2012 prediction of a new age/cycle, which many other cultures relgious and non religious have written about.

The new age of man is upon us, and once again we have been enlightened.

Peace be with you

Originally posted by GirlNextDoor
Or maybe what we don't see is that science is actually leading us closer to God, but our perceptions of God need to change (i.e., take Him out of the box we've put Him in, or rather take our minds out of the box we've put them in).

Just a thought I've been having lately.

I'm thinking this especially in the areas of string theory, multiple dimensions, etc.

What if it's not Either-Or? What if it's And?

[edit on 10/1/08 by GirlNextDoor]

What if you and the creator are one ?

If you and your creator are one then are you not creating yourself ?


Could it not be the case that the creator created you that is, a portion of itself, in order to experience itself through you ?

If you indeed are a creator then am I a figment of your imagination ?


Equally so, am I not a figment of my own imagination lol ?

Surely the more humanity makes the creator like itself the further it moves away from the creator ?

Someone once quoted God stating "There is only one of us in the room"

food for thought no?





[edit on 10/1/08 by GirlNextDoor]

In my church, they teach school (it's also a Christian Academy). In looking at their science books they do teach, as the name implies, science. The books and the science are comparable to public schools. If anything, the books are more 'liberal' in that they do not exclude Creationism like their public school counterparts do. Evolution and Creationism are only a very, very small and non-functional part of science.

[edit on 2-10-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
I can sum it up in two words.

“Revenue stream.”

As the average intelligence level of the human race increases, it becomes harder to frighten the masses into submission.

As Science brings us more and more knowledge, it becomes harder to fool the masses into believing the silly fairy tales that we call religion.

Science is making it harder and harder for church leaders to keep people “on board.” The fewer people on board, the smaller the profit margin of the church.

Pretty simple, when you really THINK about.

what church fears science?

this is nonsense, the implication is tired and cliche'd anti-christian sniping...

completely misplaced, inaccurate and simply bigoted ignorance in the name of pseudo-intellectualism.

unless by 'the church' you mean the 90's pop band, then perhaps so... but who cares?

why not rename the thread to 'christians are knuckle-dragging morons'?

at least your bias would be less disguised.

i'm a life-long student of physics, and the more i learn, the more convinced i am of the divinity of nature...

reply to post by saint4God


By including "Creationism", they are not being more liberal, open minded, or free thinking. They are attempting to indoctrinate. Creationism is not Science, it is philosophy at best. I don't think you'd find many people who are opposed to the teaching of creationism in school, provided it was within the proper context. Perhaps in an ancient literature or philosophy class. The separation of Church and State doesn't really apply in that case, since the bible has been a strong and decisive power in human politics, art, and literature. It would be no different than my school teaching me about Zeus, Athena, and Poseidon when reviewing the Iliad and the Oddesey - despite greek mythology being religion.

Creationism, if it were an actual science, would have no problem being accepted into the scientific literature and taught in science classes. However, for over 3,000 years religion has been shown to be dead wrong in matters of science in the academic arena - and Creationism vs. Evolution is only the latest past battleground. Creationism lost by weight of reason, evidence, and, and falsification. There's no reason to teach Creationsim in science class, just as there's no reason to teach the four elements of Earth, Air, Fire, Water in chemistry. Just as there is no need to teach the four humors or cranial drilling to relieve headaches in medical schools.

Now, if people wish for Creationism to be taught in schools, they should do what every other idea in the sphere of human academics has done. Research. Publish their findings and submit them to the peer-review process. Fight it out in the academic arena - and let the best theory win. Creationists cannot do this, because creationism is not science. This is why they're trying to side-step the academic process in totality and instead seek a political route into school - because the political route is not based on evidence, reason, or a better understanding of how our world works.

Again, you school is not interested in science. It's interested in proping up god and the bible - and I guess science can be taught too, provided it doesn't conflict with the bible. But then again, if you have to distort the facts to meet a pre-supposed conclusion, it's not really science.

Originally posted by moocowman
food for thought no?

Aw, now you're just trying to mess with my head.

Surely the more humanity makes the creator like itself the further it moves away from the creator ?

Not if I and and the creator are one. If we are one, then we are the same, and therefore can't move away from each other, right?


Seriously, those were some trippy questions and gave me some "whoa" moments, for which I thank you. However, I still believe the bond I share with God is a creator-creature bond. In many, many ways He has given me the power to create, and I believe his Spirit dwells in me, and that through His spirit and his word, I can know him. But, I don't believe I am God.

I respect everyone believes but to understand God and religion we need to know where they come from.
Where does the word God come from and what did it imply back then?
Who were the first to use the word God and who were they referring to?

Yes I know, if it wasn't for Religion we would have probably colonized mars already or humans would have traveled out of this solar system already. But I think that science and Religion come from the same face of the coin. Some where along the line they parted ways and became competitors.

Both, Religion and science, strip one of one's money. One through faith and the other through technology, but both leaves you empty, because ultimately we feel (at least I do) like we are trapped, like there is more out there than an invisible connection to God or driving and having fast cars and houses. They say that Religion is for the poor and science for the rich but neither stop you from committing suicide.

Religion was imposed and exorcised through the death of millions, and science contribute to the death of millions as well.

Religion embrace God while science try to explain it away, but the time will come where both would have to reconcile. As science advances we understand it less and it becomes more complicated and while people need a savior, because we don't take responsibility for our actions or the lack of it, religion will survive as an escape out of this reality, giving us the hope, and making us weaker at the same time, that some one would take care of us.

These are just my thoughts on the subject and I DON'T intend to offend anyone's believes or point of view. I'm just a very spiritual person(I think humans are spiritual beings) who doesn't believe in a God as our salvation nor science (the way is going) as our ultimately solution. Maybe the union of both, religion and science will lead us to a new discovery, which would be our future.

Not if I and and the creator are one. If we are one, then we are the same, and therefore can't move away from each other, right? reply to post by GirlNextDoor


So if you and god are one and the same and can't move away from each other, how is it possible to move toward something you can't move away from?

Equally so, creator / creature would imply a seperation, again how is it possible to be seperate from that with which you are one?


If you and god are one how is it possible to not know the word of god as this would imply seperation from that which is all that there is.

If it is the case that you want to know the word of god, this would imply that you want to know what god wants. God wanting something would imply that that god lacks or needs something, how is it possible for the creator of all that is and, is, all that there is, to lack anything?


If god the creator of everything is all that there is then how can god be seperate from anything ? If god cannot be seperate from anything then would this not explain very simply the statement "The kingdom of heaven is here" ?

Perhaps to some these questions are heretical but lets take god out of the box for a moment, bible adherants don't have a monopoly on god if anything they keep god in the box.

These are simple reasoning questions that we can ask ourselves we don't need other people or ancient manuscripts to answer them especially if we claim to have a relationship with the creator.

So do we chose to have a relationship with the creator, which is impossible not to do if the creator is all that there is, or do we chose to have a relationship with books containing words written by men, that require other men to interprate them for us?

When my children want to know about me I don't tell the mail man to ask his brother in law to tell them, how would they benefit from that, especially when we live in the same house ?

reply to post by Lasheic


These are superb and balanced videos you have posted, the shame is that most christians are too afraid or brainwashed to even take the time to open mindedly view them.

great post

reply to post by thegrayone


Science and religion are both methodologies to explain the universe around us. The difference between them is that one is impartial and self-correcting, and the other is self-indulgent and arrogant in its belief of untouchable truth. Science is the former, and religion is the latter. Scientists demand to be proven wrong, religious types can't think of anything worse. QED.

One thing proven by this thread is that the feeling of science is not unbiased (many times by those who do not participate in it as an occupation). As in my aforementioned posts, I am a church-going scientist who sees no conflict as well as 2/3 of my peers in the office. Science is a tool. There's no reason to 'feel' anything about it. Does a carpenter feel about his hammer? If he does, there's a much deeper issue here than merely building houses.

[edit on 3-10-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by thegrayone

 

Science and religion are both methodologies to explain the universe around us. The difference between them is that one is impartial and self-correcting, and the other is self-indulgent and arrogant in its belief of untouchable truth. Science is the former, and religion is the latter. Scientists demand to be proven wrong, religious types can't think of anything worse. QED.

What can I tell you, I think you are right; both try to run our lives one way on another through society.

reply to post by Lasheic


Lasheic, nice response my man...well thought-through...

Deception on your part - no I don't think so...

Preconception - most definitely...

What would you think if my signature/salutation was the inverse of yours, it would look something like this...

"Science is pointless, I only follow my religion!"

What would be my worldview...coming into a forum on faith and science...pretty obvious, huh?

Narrow, head in the sand, and closed minded? Correct?

As I read your real one...it's the inverse of my fake one...if I'm intepreting correctly...in my mind...narrow and close minded...help me out ok?

OT

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by OldThinker

 

That article starts off with the silly notion that christmas is the celebration of christ's birth! That is a pagan holiday that along with many others the Christians adopted!
Then it goes on to list the good things that christianity has done it cannot be argued that christians have accomplished many things that might not have ever been accomplished! But still the arguement for christianity is not any stronger, it still is all faith! Many religions have passed and many are still being practiced those people all have/had faith in their religion! Did it make zeuss real? No! Does your faith make god real? No!
I also read some of the silly creationist links you posted. They fail miserably to make any scientific case for their belief!

Anon...thank you for your thoughts...appreciate your opinion..."silly" may be a bit offensive...and a lot not-thought-through!

But get um' coming!

OT

reply to post by thegrayone


I have to disagree with that assertion. Science definitely doesn't try to run anyone's life - it's a tool to discover verifiable knowledge. We use it, not the other way round. As for religion, I don't know if you are referring to the beliefs, or churches. That's a difficult one to answer.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I grew up with religion albeit not by CHOICE. At age 12 mentioned to my father that I thought the bible was in code and did not make sense to me! His reply.... Oh shut up u don't know what your'e talking about! Guess what? I shut up! Left home at 16 after years of sexual abuse from my loved by the community pastor father! I forgave my father and decided I would study and learn and find out for myself what life was about and listen to everyone who entered my life because I had a deep seeded understanding that I was here to learn about life by opening my mind to everything I heard and learnt. I picked the bible up again at age 40 with a strange idea that this time I would understand. I read revelations first and genesis last. GUESS WHAT I DISCOVERED ALL BY MYSELF! That the bible is talking in metaphors and parables and is in code. Strangely for me when I put two and two together I wondered why my intelligent but disturbed father didn't get it! The bible is talking about the planets, the stars, the symbols of stars, the moon and the SUN! Not son as people believe. I mean seriously christians drive around with the fish symbol on their cars, the pisces astrology symbol! Around long before christianity... All I can say is open your mind to anything and the light will come to u... This is my opinion only and am not in any way attempting to sway anyone with my view.. peace and love to everyone. We live in dark times and bible prophecy is coming true. But read between the lines and answers will come.

Thx, but you were all over there....

www.youtube.com...