If Abortion were illegal.....

Then how much time should a woman serve who has it?

Across America, anti-choice elected officials and activists are working to ban abortion. From state legislatures to the campaign for the White House, efforts are underway to treat women like criminals and to prosecute trained medical doctors.

Banning abortion won't stop all abortions, it will just make them extremely dangerous.

Use your vote and your voice to ensure that abortion remains legal.

Abortion is a personal decision, not a criminal act.

source


Isnt it funny how the gun crazy conservatives will preach about freedom of choice for deadly assault weapons like an AK47, plastic explosives, and hand grenades.

Its the same damn argument.

(edited to emphasize the point of this thread for those who refuse to read the entire damn thing)



Banning abortion won't stop all abortions, it will just make them extremely dangerous.

Banning assault weapons won't completely stop gun crime, they just wont occur AS often.

So whats equal ground on two of the biggest issues this election?


1.) We ban both.
2.) We ban neither.

Which one would you vote for?

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Well this might not be what you want to hear but I firmly believe that Roe v Wade needs to be overturned.

Why? Because it is a decision that should never have been left to them or the Federal government. It is a State's issue. Let the people of a State decide whether it is legal or not.

Let Utah do its thing and if you don't like it, move.

Each State should be able to decide whether to allow, recognize, or deny gay marriages too.

yes, it makes things a bit more complicated but would you rather we just drop the charade of State's having power and just make us the United State of America? I sure as hell don't want that!

I want to live or have the opportunity to live in a State that shares my values or priorities. I would like to live in a State that spends a ton of money on education for example. Stop giving the Feds so much control over us.

So I guess I am a bit of a Federalist.

But if I had to make a compromise, I would like to see a change in the abortion laws. 1) if a couple is married, the wife should be required by law to "notify" the husband (not get permission!) but notify the husband, before she could legally get an abortion. That gives the husband the "choice" to either agree, debate or divorce her. Why should a woman's right to choose mean that a man gives up his right to choose?

....sorry but notification laws have been shot down by the courts so don't argue that they have these laws now.

.....anyway.....over turn Roe v Wade and leave the decision up to the States....that is my opinion.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Although I am ardently pro-life, I have to say that is an interesting perspective and a way I have never looked at the controversy before. I guess I will just have to reserve the right to be a hypocrite (although I don't agree with the plastic explosives and grenades part- that is a bit much).

One side note I would like to address. The term 'anti-choice' used in the article. Just a pet peeve. The best terms to use, IMO, is pro-life and pro-choice. I can't stand it when either side uses the term anti-choice or anti-life/pro-death.

Don't get me wrong- I detest abortion, especially when it is used as a form of birth control. However, those terms make it appear that both sides are trying to make their opponents sound like crazed freaks but that is not always the case. Whenever I see such terms used by either side, a part of me instantly closes myself off from their argument because it is usually indicative of an incendiary agenda-push instead of an honest plea.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


I agree with you completely. A one-size fits all approach really doesn't work for either this or gun rights, or many other issues. It ends up not being fair to the other half of the country on the losing end. The best way to handle the abortion issue is to allow each state to decide on its own as to what circumstances it will be legal, if at all. In this way, it allows those in support and opposed to such issues to have areas of the country where they can practice their beliefs as they see fit. Everyone (well, most everyone) would be happy.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Its not a detestable answer what so ever

For me, this OP is a matter of deep speculation. When i set back and think about it in terms of the OP, i start to question myself on both sides of the story.

Ultimately - i agree with you - it SHOULD be left up to the states to decide.

So should gun laws, gay marriage, etc.

I can name on candidate who agree's with us on that too

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Isnt it funny how the gun crazy conservatives will preach about freedom of choice for deadly assault weapons like an AK47, plastic explosives, and hand grenades.

Hey don't be bashing the right to bare arms. I believe in the right to own firearms and I am prochoice. There is no need to draw that battle line.

if you're pro-guns and pro-choice then i'd say its safe to assume that your answer to the OP question is:

Ban neither



is that what you meant to post and just messed up? ...or did you actually intend to post off topic?

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


I'm not bashing the right to bare arms.

I'm bashing BOTH sides of the argument. Can you not catch the...sense of irony in my descriptions of both?

Please - by all means - go reread the article and actually post something about the topic, and not the poster.. its kind of frowned upon around here.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
is that what you meant to post and just messed up? ...or did you actually intend to post off topic?

Who were you addressing? If you were addressing me I do believe my point was pretty clear.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Hm. Or we could possibly turn this around, oddly enough, to show another example. For instance, liberals who generally support a woman's choice in abortion yet oppose the death penalty. That has always been ironic to me for obvious reasons I hope don't require an explanation. Anyways, I won't derail your thread but there seems to be a bit of hypocrisy in us all.

Although your OP does raise an interesting point, they are still separate issues that should not be compared to one another in my opinion. It must also be remembered that not every person that supports or opposes gun control will automatically support or oppose abortion. Stereotypically it might be a liberal/conservative issue and the beliefs of both will generally be equal but it is not always the case.

I say take it on a point by point issue because that is what it is.

reply to post by Sonya610


I am addressing you. You're posting off topic. You're STILL posting off topic.

The question is :which would you vote for


Thats like me saying "hey sonya, what color is the sky" and your answer is "i like watermelon"

Go re-read the OP, i bolded a few area's for ease of reference so you can skim over it and not have to read the entire thing.

Abortion is a choice which should never be taken away from woman,i would kill for the right of a woman to have this "literally*....and guns are just silly for an advanced moral society....*equips flame shield*

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
I am addressing you. You're posting off topic. You're STILL posting off topic.

No actually I was directly replying to the statements YOU made.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Isnt it funny how the gun crazy conservatives will preach about freedom of choice for deadly assault weapons like an AK47, plastic explosives, and hand grenades.

Are you confused? Is it an ATS glitch? You did not type that?

reply to post by AshleyD


I do agree, a lot with you Ashley.

The intent of this OP was meant to be one for speculation - and not MY opinion on anything.

I agree with Res Ispa, it should be up the states to decide for all issues like abortion and gun control.

For the record - i support pro-choice AND the death penalty. I believe they are two completely different things.

One punishes criminals who kill.
One allows a woman to do with her body as she chooses.

I, personally, am undecided on rather or not a fetus is to be considered a human until after birth.

You can make all the arguments you want, i've read them all

My opinion is the fetus is part of the woman until after birth. A woman has every right if she wants to cut off her leg, so whats the difference?

emotional differences?

Emotion has no place in a court of law.

Thats one thing that liberals get accused of all of the time "you act with too much emotion"

Both sides act with too much emotion.

If you're pro-life. Good for you. I dont persecute you for it. Its your decision, and i make an assumption, but i believe you're a woman.

It's your CHOICE to not have an abortion - and i believe it fittingly so.

Im not saying i think abortions are great and should be broadcast on cable TV. I am saying that i think abortion should be legal because its a choice. to ban choice is unamerican.

Its the same argument as hand guns, assault rifles, and hand grenades. I knwo you said i went too far on a limb there, but i don't think i did.

Both instances are extremes in their own respective categories.

Abortion is an extreme in pro choice
Nitroglycerin is an extreme in freedom to bare arms.

Thats why i posed the question:

If middleground for the issues is:

Ban both
or

Ban neither


which would you vote for?

reply to post by Sonya610


Are you done posting off topic?


I would go rewrite the OP in crayon, but ATS doesnt have that font.



Attack the topic. not the poster.

There's nothign in this topic that says gun laws SHOULD be enforced.

Its a question. Why does it so easily escape your comprehension?

I also take some issue with the Supreme Court deciding that the right to an abortion is a "fundamental" right. We don't have that many "fundamental" rights in the first place and when those are challenged in court it is subject to strict scrutiny and will almost always be found unconstitutional. If you look at all the other "fundamental" rights, not one of them involves taking a life or a right that infringes on someone else. But abortion does.

If the Supreme Court wants to keep Roe on the books fine....but abortion should not be a Fundamental right. Men don't have a single fundamental right set aside just for us. Maybe we could get one. How about a fundamental right saying we can have affairs but women can't?
I can't think of something that would be akin to this abortion right. It has to be something that has a huge negative impact on married women and they have to live with it.

....I am personally anti-abortion and of course anti-capital punishment from a moral perspective but I am pro-choice and pro-capital punishment from an objective, live in the real world, my beliefs shouldn't infringe on your beliefs type of perspective.
I just am equally intolerant of people that want to infringe on my beliefs and rights. I would divorce my wife in a heartbeat if she opted for an abortion....I would expect the right to explain to her the options she has....yep she gets the ultimate choice but at least she knows when to expect the divorce papers.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
I would go rewrite the OP in crayon, but ATS doesnt have that font.
Attack the topic. not the poster. There's nothign in this topic that says gun laws SHOULD be enforced.

Perhaps I was confused. You mentioned weapons in your original post. Are doctors using firearms these days?

Please humor me, why did you mention AK47's?

If you would be kind enough to explain why you mentioned weapons then perhaps I could understand your point.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
My opinion is the fetus is part of the woman until after birth. A woman has every right if she wants to cut off her leg, so whats the difference?

Hm. I suppose the difference would be a woman cutting off her own leg versus cutting of the leg of her child. To me, I do believe the baby growing inside of a woman's tummy is a baby- not merely a 'fetus.' However, I won't take you off on a bunny trail to debate abortion. I can understand what your thread is trying to say.

Im not saying i think abortions are great and should be broadcast on cable TV.

I totally understand. I've even known many, many people who are disgusted by the concept of abortion but still support it as a right of choice. I can't imagine anyone actually getting off on the thought of the abortion procedure, in other words.

Its the same argument as hand guns, assault rifles, and hand grenades. I knwo you said i went too far on a limb there, but i don't think i did.

Both instances are extremes in their own respective categories.

Abortion is an extreme in pro choice
Nitroglycerin is an extreme in freedom to bare arms.

Hm. Well, I think it becomes apples and oranges because we are debating not just a 'rights' issue but a legal issue versus a moral issue. For instance, I don't know of too many people who have a MORAL tie to gun control or the right to bear arms but many people would claim abortion is a moral issue. So to me, both issues could be legal matters but abortion is also a moral issue, which is what creates the difference in my mind.

Good thread, though. I probably won't have too much more to say but I will enjoy keeping up with it.

Oh, and to answer your question honestly, I cannot say ban or pass of both. It is impossible for me to say such a thing because abortion is a moral issue to me (therefore it would outweigh a government 'right') while gun control I see purely as a legal right and government issue.

reply to post by Sonya610


Allow me to dumb down the question.


I Am making the claim that both arguments are the same thing: Freedom. A woman has the freedom of choice, An american has the freedom to own an AK47 or a hand grenade

People who are for abortion (typically) oppose AK47s

People who are for AK47s (typically) oppose Abortion.

They both use the same arguments against each other. making complete asses of themselves.

SO IF THEY ARE THE SAME ARGUMENTS

Then would you vote for

Ban both abortion and assault weapons

or

Ban neither abortion and assault weapons

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
People who are for abortion (typically) oppose AK47s
People who are for AK47s (typically) oppose Abortion.

Well not ALL of us are typical. Realize your mix of topics (guns and abortion) fire up strong, very strong feelings.

And do not condescend to me.

Peace : )