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Originally posted by Horza
From what JPhish said I thought that you were a creationist. There was a little sarcasm in my question of you being a evolutionary biologist.
As yet I have not had a debate with a creationist that has actually presented some alternative evidence to the evidence I have presented. They have never presented evidence of creation or I.D. (ok ... besides Kirk and the banana).
I have only had debates with creationists involve them trying to prove evolution wrong and not trying to prove creation or I.D right.
Have you ever had any experiences to the contrary?
Originally posted by Horza
The terms Micro and Macro are actually rarely used by the majority of scientists when describing evolution.
The term "micro-evolution" is most commonly used by some creationists and I.D. proponents who use it in a very strategic way to try to disprove evolution and the theory of evolution.
Wrong. A phenomenon is a fact, something that exists or can be seen, felt, tasted etc.
You agree that evolution can happen within your lifetime, so "micro-evolution" is a phenomenon.
We also have huge amounts of fossil data, that overwhelmingly and consistently corresponds to the theory of evolution, that shows that evolution happens over geological time frames, so "macro-evolution" is a phenomenon.
JPish, you are incorrect in your definition of the word phenomenon.
Originally posted by Eyemagistus
reply to post by Bob Sholtz
hundreds of failed experiments by Thomas Edison and his assistants in attempting to make a light bulb, only proved that light bulbs are a myth. Only the last one showed that it might be possible.
Originally posted by Horza
This was posted by Bob Sholz ... please double check your sources and please do not put my name to posts that I did not make.
As far as evolution is concerned, there is no difference. It happens over 30 years, as seen in bacteria, and it happens over 30 millions years as the fossil records show for reptiles and birds.
Is Melatonin an evolutionary biologist?
Originally posted by Horza
No JPhish, you are wrong and yes I do know the definition of "species".
Originally posted by Horza
Technically, there are so many different species of bacteria that we cannot determine how many there are with today's technology. One rough estimate is that there are 10 million to 1 billion different species of bacteria. So, what I am talking about is E.coli's inability to use citrate is what is used to distiguish it from other species of bacteria. The fact that E.coli mutated, changing one of it's defining features as a species is why this is such a big deal.
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Science proves the Bible to me too.
Firmament is a name for the sky or the heavens, generally used in the context of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for "firmament" is "raqiya`" (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the Earth. en.wikipedia.org...
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Creation is a fact. Since in the 1960s Edwin Hubble found the red shift in the stars. Now the residue heat radiation of the big bang creation event has also been detected. The finite nature of the universe is a given among all serious scientists. It's only New Age dreaming atheists that deny the reality of creation.
[edit on 7/3/2008 by Bigwhammy]
Originally posted by Horza
Atheists do not deny that things are created.
Atheists do not believe that a god created things.
They believe that combinations of natural forces in the universe combined to produce all things.
The finite nature of the universe is not a given among serious scientists at all.
There is great debate at the moment about if the big bang and inflation theory is correct and whether or not the universe may be, in fact, infinite.
www.princeton.edu...
space.newscientist.com...
riofriospacetime.blogspot.com...
Originally posted by Horza
These are the terms we have been using and their correct meaning in the context of this argument:
Scientific theory - A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.
science.kennesaw.edu...
The Law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical equation. Gravitational Theory explains how it works.
Phenomenon - A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν, pl. φαινόμενα - phenomena) is any occurrence that is observable.
dictionary.reference.com...
dictionary.reference.com...
www.merriam-webster.com...
Gravity, the moons orbit, earthquakes, glaciers, snow, rain and evolution are all phenomenon.
The word phenomenon does not necessarily imply an extraordinary, unexplainable or supernatural event.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
READ HIS POST!
WHAT DOES IT SAY! Now Context Horza Context
Atheists do not believe that a god created things.
The finite nature of the universe is not a given among serious scientists at all.
Please don't be rude.
How is that comment semantic. It means exactly what it says it means.
The Big Bang theory and the idea of a finite universe is under serious threat of having to be fundamentally re-worked or replaced. Because of this it is no longer a given. It is still the most popular method of describing the beginning of the universe but there is are still things within the theory, like inflation, that sit very uncomfortably with some scientist. As they have tried to explain these inconsistencies, like the constant background temperature of the universe, some have realised that there may be other explanations that are more complete. Some of these alternative theories now have hard science to help support them. These new theories are being taken very seriously by the scientific community.
Did you read the articles I posted?
www.princeton.edu...
space.newscientist.com...
riofriospacetime.blogspot.com...
Yeah I have seen a lot of people talking about that latley.
- Con
Originally posted by Conspiriology
Get your Darwininan convoluted Concept Science today! If you order now, get your Macro with your Micro, FREE!!
Archie Duhbunker:How can they afford to do that?
Johnny Atheist:the macro doesn't cost anything cuz it's an imaginary phenomena.
Archie Duhbunker: Whats a phenomenon?
Johnny Atheist: This week? or last?
Archie Duhbunker: wait isn't that dishonest? ya know like aren't you guys just making stuff up as you go? this is a lie?
Johnny Atheist: "We" in Science, are so confident that someday the mega tons of proof we have will show we were right, we decided to delete the word "lie" from all the dictionarys in all public schools and librarys.
Those damn things were getting as problematic as the Bible used to.
So anymore we don't use the word lie,, we like to call it a,,"logical epiphany."
Archie Duhbunker: The Darwininan kind?
Johnny Atheist: Oh, but of course.
Archie Duhbunker: No Thanks
Johnny Atheist: What ya don't believe me? This stuff comes straight from the NAS!
Archie Duhbunker: Neo Atheist Society?.
Johnny Atheist: No! National Academy Science!
Archie Duhbunker: Macro, Micro, National, Neo,, what the hell is the difference, you guys will have a new meaning for it by tommorow anyway.
Johnny Atheist: Well Science is self correcting
Archie Duhbunker:
[edit on 3-7-2008 by Conspiriology]
Originally posted by Conspiriology
Yes you are correct but let me be BLUNT.
I don't believe in BS merely to seek the approval of others, fearing I will be accused of having a closed mind.
You are damn right it's closed
For a good reason too
evolution is a LIE
- Con
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Eyemagistus
Firmament is a name for the sky or the heavens, generally used in the context of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for "firmament" is "raqiya`" (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the Earth. en.wikipedia.org...
Which is a good example of science proving the Bible because it describes a hemisphere shape to the sky before humans knew that earth was round.
You must also consider it was written in Hebrew to ancient Hebrew people in terms they could relate too.
The Jewish Encyclopaedia describes the Firmament as follows:
"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. "
Creation is a fact.
Originally posted by Horza
reply to post by JPhish
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed due to your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of terms and your deliberate use of terms out of the context they should be applied.
The Law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical equation. Gravitational Theory explains how it works.
Phenomenon - A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν, pl. φαινόμενα - phenomena) is any occurrence that is observable.
Originally posted by JPhish
A phenomenon = Fact
Macro-evolution is not a phenomenon because it is not observable
Originally posted by Horza
Gravity, the moons orbit, earthquakes, glaciers, snow, rain and evolution are all phenomenon.
The word phenomenon does not necessarily imply an extraordinary, unexplainable or supernatural event.
Originally posted by JPhish
Phenomenon is a subjective word when deducing whether or not it is extraordinary.
Originally posted by Horza
Wiki has this to say about it which seems to contradict you argument:
A phylotype is a term for species that is becoming common among microbiologists that describes genomic uniqueness of the organism described.
It is generally accepted that bacteria are classified into different species.
So, yes, there are different species of single celled organisms that replicate a-sexually.
Are you saying that there are no different species of bacteria?
Please provide the evidence of this.
It is true that some scientist argue that bacteria cannot be classified into seperate species, Lynn Margullis for example but this seems to be controversial.
Originally posted by Evil Genius
So, when did science prove that the sky was shaped like a hemisphere? Pretty sure that is just an optical illusion due to our perspective down here on a round planet. And it definitely doesn't prove that the Bible says the earth was round or that the people back then thought the earth was round. Remember, you have to think like an ancient Hebrew here...
Wiki
The Jewish Encyclopaedia describes the Firmament as follows:
"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. "
So, just like every civilization, whose ignorance regarding the cosmos was larger than their understanding of it, they made up what they wanted to describe what they saw. Later, after finally figuring out the world was round, Christian decendants travelled halfway around the world and destroyed the civilizations which had the cosmos figured out a long time ago...
Using a double meaning here Whammy? If you mean that the Big Bang happened and the universe was created then yes it is fact. Cosmic Background Radiation does confirm this. If you mean that God made the Big Bang happen and created the universe, then no, that is not fact. We'll need some proof for that.
Originally posted by Amaterasu
reply to post by Conspiriology
I am not going to call you names. I am merely going to impart my observation of your behavior as I interpret it.
I will offer you The Terra Papers to consider. Here are my predictions based on my observations of your behavior:
1. You will not read in detail all of the work (and likely not read all the way through);
2. You will declare it science fiction;
3. You will dismiss anything I might say regarding the Papers.
Here's the link to the thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
If you are brave enough to read them in detail, all the way through, I would love to hear your thoughts.
It would seem you have a paradigm with no repeatable evidence to back it up. Given that, you seem to behave belligerently, grandiosely, and with a mind that will not open to any other paradigm, perhaps to compensate for your lacks.
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
You only confirmed my points. If you believed the earth was flat as they did back then why would a Bible prophet describe it as a curve? He was describing revelation from God which superseded his personal knowledge.
When terrestrial strata and the fossil record are examined, it is to be seen that all living organisms appeared simultaneously.
My understanding of the first books of the Bible is based on the understanding of Hebrew scholar Dr. John Sallihammer.
He contends that the creation of the universe occurs in the first verse. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth" and it doesn't say how long that took. "in the beginning" comes from one Hebrew word resh-t that always denotes an indefinite period of time not a point in time.
(KJV) Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
(KJV) Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven…
(NRSV) Genesis 1:8 God called the dome Sky…
(KJV) Genesis 1:17 And God set them (the sun, moon and stars) in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth
Matthew 24:29 and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
1st Chronicles 16:30 …the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalms 93:1 ... the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psalms 96:10 ... the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved....