Will 11/4/2008 Be US History’s Most Significant Day Since 12/7/1941?

reply to post by xpert11

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
What is the generational equivelent to the Lusitania?

I am wary of making such comparisons between eras but I will play along for the sake of discussion. Due to the fact that I disagree with Don nothing stands out in the span of my so far short life time.

Maybe it’s my fault for minimizing the Nine Eleven Event? I do that because I am so certain that Bush43 jumped on it as 1) a diversion from his poor handling of the economy in his first 9 months in office - War trumps Economy - and 2) a once in a lifetime chance for him to be somebody!

Throw in his new-found BORN Again deterministic religion with an END Time view of history and you have the Nine Eleven Extravaganza! The Dead-Beat Generation’s opportunity to REDEEM itself for taking a No Tax, FREE ride from 1975 to 2001!

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by xpert11

 

I doubt the Russian Federation has an Armed Forces stronger than Mexico. And China has even less. We would have a 20-30 years warning if either began to build up its armed forces to the size needed for RF to invade eastern Europe or the PRC to first attack Taiwan and Korea, then Japan and then head for the US of A. No way! The PRC could not “whip” Vietnam when it had a border dispute. Well, the US of A could not whip Vietnam either. I think we better make Vietnam our No. 1 ally in the Asian region?

Proxy wars? That’s a stretch. China owes its current level of influence ONLY to the myopic foreign policy practiced by a capitalistic driven US of A. If we were more humanitarian and less dollar oriented, there would not be a place in Africa where force and violence would be welcome. But that seems to be impossible for us to do more than - talk the talk.

[edit on 7/15/2008 by donwhite]

The armed forces of the Russian Federation, no stronger than the Mexican Army????? You can't be serious!! Tell that to the Georgian's.

"And China has even less". Give us a break and put down whatever you're smokin.

3,000,000 active and reserve forces of the PRC held at bay by the Mexican "Armed" Forces. Not in your lifetime. The Russians/Chinese would appear at the border and all you would see would be the elbows and a**holes of the Mexican Army, making a hasty retreat, in a thousand different directions, never to be seen again.

Thanks for the laugh!!

That's enough for me from this long winded writer. Too much, talk the talk. The last person to leave, please turn out the lights.

reply to post by xpert11

my father generation is the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. LBJ and co were itching to become entangled in the jungles of Vietnam. Sure the comparison is far from perfect because the Gulf of Tonkin Incident solely involved military forces and there was never 90 - 100% of public support backing the Vietnam War.

I think a good case could be made that Dwight David Eisenhower is MORE responsible for the American part of he Vietnam War than even LBJ and the phony Gulf f Tonkin non-incident. Just as the young JFK was beguiled by Ike into the Bay of Pigs, he was likewise humbled to be following in the wake of America’s great hero of World War Two. As Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers Ike successfully led the great D-Day invasion that freed Europe from the scourge of Nazism. He even managed to keep Churchill and De Gaulle on the same side!

Early in 1960, Ike sent 500-600 US Army MAAG - Military Assistance and Advisor Group - to Saigon to assist the new South Vietnam government. The American CIA counseled the Diem government NOT to honor the 1958 Geneva Peace accord which called for country-wide elections in 1960. Rule 1. You don’t participate in elections you cannot win.

By the time of JFK’s untimely death, November, 1963, the number of US troops in Vietnam had risen to 2,200. 1964 was an election year. NO Democrat could afford to “loose” another Asian country to Communism. (Republicans blamed FDR and Truman for the “loss” of China to Mao Zedong in 1949. Q. How can you “lose” something you never had?) So like it or not, know better or not, the Dems were STUCK in Vietnam just as Brer’ Rabbit had been with Tar Baby. www.otmfan.com...

On August 2 and 4, 1964, Johnson got his causa bella when the USS Maddox reported it was under fire from NV gunboats. It did not take much to arouse the American people that our HONOR had been sullied by “little yellow” people! (Skin color is never far away in America). On August 7, 1964, the US Congress acted (hastily) and adopted the Tonkin Gulf Resolution to preserve American honor in the Tonkin Gulf. And the WAR was on! 59,000 dead Americans and 800,000 dead Vietnamese later, we quit the field! Ho Chin Minh did not live to see Vietnam achieve its ultimate freedom from foreigners. Called there the “10,000 Days War of Liberation” from 1945 to 1975. You know the rest.

reply to post by Oldnslo

The armed forces of the Russian Federation, no stronger than the Mexican Army? You can't be serious!! Tell that to the Georgian's.
Thanks for the laugh!!

Georgia (independent since 1991) is on the Black Sea and shares land borders with Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, twice - that’s not easy - and the Russian Federation. Tbilisi is the capital but I cannot pronounce the name. Area: 26,486 square miles. About the size of West Virginia. Population: 4,600,000. 2.4 million cell phones. 330,000 persons on the internet. GDP in 2007, $4,700 per person. Data from the CIA World Factbook.

On the (1989-1991) breakup of the USSR, the US eagerly jumped into many of the former Soviet states. Ukraine, Belarus, the three Baltics, several of the -stans and Georgia! Our obvious goal was to forever surround and to NEUTER the surviving Russian Federation as a major world player.

The Americans were about to teach the Brits how to play and WIN at their old 19th century “Great Game” contest with the tsars. But alas, the US has “over-reached” in Georgia and promised more than we could deliver when it came push to shove time. The Ruskies are PUSHING-BACK. Thanks to Bush43, VP Cheney, Herr Oberfuhrer Rumsfeld and Condo Rice the US Armed Forces are stretched so thin we have even stopped reporting suicide attempts. We need every man! You might say the LAME DUCK president is bankrupt!

reply to post by donwhite


I have read everything you have posted and I believe a good majority of the info is correct. Your knowledge of our history is pretty good and well stated. I just wish you would go deeper into the next layer and then make your comments and criticisms.

An example. In an earlier post you stated the Eisenhower Administration was responsible for our early involvement in South Vietnam. That is true. But also true is the fact that both General Eisenhower and
Richard Nixon were brought into politics by one Sen. Prescott Bush (Brown Brothers Harriman). After Eisenhowers major heart attack, R Milhaus Nixon basically ran the White House "day to day" covert operations as well as regular White House activities. When the operational plan for what became Operation Zapata was "presented" to the White House, it became Nixon's "baby".

But none of this is mentioned by you and this most certainly should be included in any equation regarding US foreign policy, past and present.

And not one mention of Prescott Bush, one of the biggest, behind the scene, "movers and shaker" of the 20th century. I think you are leaving something out. There is a huge story there. At the end of this "story" Press's son and grandson become Presidents of the United States. Why?

reply to post by Oldnslo

. . the fact that both General Eisenhower and Richard Nixon were brought into politics by one Sen. Prescott Bush (Brown Brothers Harriman). After Eisenhower major heart attack, R Milhus Nixon basically ran the White House "day to day" covert operations as well as regular White House activities. When the operational plan for what became Operation Zapata was "presented" to the White House, it became Nixon's "baby". But none of this is mentioned by you and this most certainly should be included in any equation regarding US foreign policy, past and present. And not one mention of Prescott Bush, one of the biggest, behind the scene, "movers and shaker" of the 20th century.

And Mr Oldnslo, your commentary seems “right on” to me. Your memory may exceed my own? I guess my approach was the main reason I did not mention those relevant facts in my post.

I was addressing in particular Mr X11's observations and I knew him from prior posts that his father was on active duty in Vietnam as part of NZ’s contingent. Me being in Jacksonville FL and him being in Christchurch puts us about 11,000 miles apart and I did not want to overload him with too much US internal history. But I do agree with what you said about Prescott Bush (R) of CT as well.

My father was with the Australian contingent in Vietnam rather then with the New Zealand one . Such a mistake would be easy to make considering that I am a Kiwi and that Diggers and Kiwi troops served in the same geographical location in Vietnam . Never the less I do very much appreciate that Don understands how my father service effects what I post on the boards from time to time .

What does the "loss of China " and the second Gulf War have in common ?
IMO at least the Republican accusations or justifications and so on in both cases tend to lean towards the rather ill rational side of things . One reason that is given for the Republicans going berserk over the " loss of China " is that they had been out of office since FDR came to power . Saying stupid things while in opposition is one thing doing stupid things while in office is something completely differnt .

I have a new question. How do you guys rate the significance of the conflict between Russia and Georgia? I noe with some interest that Russian forces keep moving deeper in to Georgia. Suppose Russia moves to fully occupy Georgia? Is this 1969, and Czechoslovakia...all over again?

reply to post by Justin Oldham


I have two school thoughts of when it comes to Russia . The first is that is that the Bear is regaining some of its much lost pride . At the same time Russia is competing at the same game as the US capitalism . At the same time they are crapping there paints at the prospect of the missile defence system being placed in there backyard . So with that backyard in mind I do think that the conflict in Georgia will remain regional WW3 isnt going to start .

The former Soviet block countries are looking for counter to rising Russian influence and to preserve there newly found democracy's. The US should give any assistance it can to the former Soviet Block countries in terms of trade and so on . NATO is no longer the deterrent(SP?) that it once was this can be seen by the fact only five countries are doing the hard slog in Afghanistan. This is why I expect a few more punches from Russia .

Certainly the conflict in Georgia puts the problems in the Pacific that keep the NZDF busy into perspective .

We do seem to be entering a period of new instability. It leads me to think that many of today's leaders have forgotten about yesterday's lessons. this hread is, after all, about past events. I can't help but think that Bush43 has no way to deal effectively with Putin because he doesn't really understand what makes that man tick.

It's intersting me me that you sued the word "perspective," when what U.S. leaders seem to lack is...perspective.

My main concern is stability in Russia itself but more on that in a moment . Assuming that McCain is elected and the League of Democracy's gets off the ground I would expect Poland and other former Soviet Block countries to be amongst the first to sign up .

Now my concern in the region isnt Georgia rather it is Russia itself . Russia encompasses a very large geographical area and presumable just as large diverse group of people . Combine this with wide spread corruption and other factors and you could have a ticking time bomb . The worst case scenario is a second Russian civil war . Should a second Russian civil war or take place the international community would be forced to intervene because of Russia Nuclear weapons stock pile . A second Russian civil war would make good fodder for a novel but its not something I want to unfold in the real world .

I'd be interested to hear from other ATS members on this subject. Are we at risk of seeing a civil war in Russia?

Since there doesn't appear to be any interest in the prospects of a 2nd Russian civil war I will post what I regard as the other threat that isnt talked about . The Suez and Panama Canals are vulnerable to attack . Both canals as well as the ocean around the entrances could be mined . The locks in the Panama Canal could be targeted by a large vessel laden with explosives. Since there are fewer eyes on the Panama Canal it is the most logical target of a rogue state or terrorists if not both .

Both Iran and North Korea have mini subs as a part of there arsenal nor would it be impossible to convert a merchant ship to a covert mine layer . Any attack on the Canals would mean that if sufficient damage or threat existed shipping would bottlenecked . Ships would either take the long way round around or stay in port . They would be to vulnerable to attack if they remained at the entrances to the canals for anything other then a short period of time .

Any such attack would be designed to give the global economy another knock and to draw forces away from other areas where they may be badly needed .

that's true. Tehre are a lot of things that can happen in today's world that would be thought of as having no past equivelent. Blocking one of those major canals, or even the Straights of Hormuz would do real damage to the world economy. The loss of any one very large container ship might be a real stinger, too. Again, with no past equivelent.

reply to post by xpert11

Assuming that McCain is elected and the League of Democracy's gets off the ground I would expect Poland and other former Soviet Block countries to be amongst the first to sign up.

Vladimir Putin succeeded in restoring Law and Order in Russia. The Russian Mafia still holds about 20% of the RF property and GDP but that may be no worse than here in the good ole US of A. The good cop bad cop team of Dimitry as president and Vladimir as prime minister is very popular with the Ruskies.

People like security, fair treatment and competency in government more than they like democracy. We ought to wean ourselves off this overuse of a term we don’t fully grasp. Like, promise not to say “democracy” for 24 hours. Then 48 and etc.

Today President Dmitry Medvedev recognized the two breakaway provinces as TWO independent nation states. He threw down the gauntlet. Bluster and hyperbole has got Bush43 nowhere. Condo Rice is a joke. No one pays any attention to the US. We are in the hands of a know-nothing lame duck president. A problem we ought to address but won’t. It’s like we think GOD takes care of children and drunks.

League of Democracy? How crazy can you get in one lifetime? We have the United Nations. We have NATO. Why do we need a third organization to do what two are already available to do? To make a short answer, Republicans are hung up on “democracy” as a catch-all word. It’s their foreign policy counterpart to their one word domestic policy, “tax-cut.”

As for Poland joining with the US in opposition to Russia, the Poles would be DUMBER than even the Germans thought. Belarus. Moldova. Georgia. Even Ukraine will be wary of getting TOO close to the US. The Baltic states are in a precarious way. I aver if the Poles let the US build a missile site on their territory - which I hope Barrack Obama will back away from - I believe the RF will send in its Special Ops forces to blow it away. Then what do the League of Democracy do? Have a vote?

Foot Note: The League of Democracy reminds me of nothing more than the Hanseatic League. It was an alliance of trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly along the coast of Northern Europe, from the Baltic to the North Sea, during the Late Middle Ages and Early modern period (c.13th–17th centuries).
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8/27/2008 by donwhite]

As long as we are talking along these lines, what do you think it would take for the Russians to go to war with the West?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

As long as we are talking along these lines, what do you think it would take for the Russians to go to war with the West?

White's in America have the same problem with blacks in America as Americans in foreign affairs have with Russians in foreign affairs. WE HAVE NO R E S P E C T for the other. Whites and Americans need to learn just what the word R E S P E C T means. Not to themselves but to the "other."

Back to your question. Russia will not fire the first shot. But what Americans cannot get through their skulls is this: How far is it from W-DC to Warsaw as compared to the distance from Warsaw to Moscow? 4,463 miles for the former and 714 miles for the latter.
www.geobytes.com...

Even MORE consequential, long long after the US has moved on to other items of interest to it, Warsaw will still be 714 miles from Moscow. The US public disdains of more FOREIGN intrigues. Can Poland count on the US as a reliable partner to face the BEAR? Just yesterday, North Korea says we have not kept our word vis a vis the nuclear issue. This will be the SECOND time we're broken our word to North Korea. Do we not R E S P E C T the North Koreans?

Let's just say the world is taking advantage of our OVER LONG HIATUS with a lame duck - oops, I almost wrote "dead beat" - president and his Birmingham Songbird Condo Rice for Secretary of State. It's a joke! A BAD joke played on us by the US Supreme Court. But that's old news.

Conclusion. NO shooting war in Europe. Plenty of maneuvering though. With us on the outside looking in. Sell your General Dynamics, Raytheon, AM General and Halliburton. Try as hard as he may, Neo Con Master VP Cheney will NOT get his grand dream, a state of perpetual war. Despite Cheney’s best efforts, he will NOT join Micheavili or China's Sun Tzu as an historical Grand Strategist!

[edit on 8/27/2008 by donwhite]

In regards to Russia, I have one suspicion. I thin kthat President Saakasvili played a dangerous game. I think he moved on South Ossetia in a most deliberate way. I think he got the outcomes that he wanted. He's gambling that hewill survive the fallout. If he does, he and his country will have a much more "european" future.

It's not the Cuban missile crisis, but is LIKE that event. It's probably the closest thing we're going to see to that event in this decade.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

It's not the Cuban missile crisis, but is LIKE that event. It's probably the closest thing we're going to see to that event in this decade . .

Now it is the Russian position that the two provinces are filled with people who predominantly want to be free of Georgia. I don’t know if there is a reason for that we could understand here or it is a pure power play. An excuse for a military take-over. There are some NGOs on the ground in those provinces that might offer some insights into the underlying causes for this dangerous event.

Q. Why was Condo Rice offered to Bush43 by Scowcroft as “highly informed” about Russia when it seems all she knows about Russia she learned from out of print text books. On the ground she has a ZERO sum gain record. Another Rumsfeld type appointment. Goofy.

I suspect the timing came straight out of Moscow even if the complaints of the inhabitants of the 2 provinces are legitimate and older. Until now, it was not convenient to antagonize the US. Now that our president is an unpopular and over extended lame duck, it was decided by Moscow to act.

Of course, the tipping point was Poland’s DUMB and dangerous playing anti-Russian games with the US anti-missile program. As our own great authority on such games said, "It ain't over till it's over."

[edit on 8/27/2008 by donwhite]

In an effort to stay on topic, let's look at Czechoslovavia in 1968. Would the contemporary equivelent be an evetual inasion of Georgia by Russia? It's not hard to imagine how they'd spin that. "We are restoring order to a fragmented nation which happens to be a neighbor. By helping them, we help ourselves."