Former Senator Mike Gravel Calls For Independent 9/11 Investigation, Prosecution of Bush & Cheney

somehow I don't think these guys would go to a normal jail. Anyone ever seen Goodfellas? When Paulie and family all go to jail. They got their own little penthouse jail suite and weren't under the same rules as other prisoners....somehow I think it would be a lot like that. Like these guys would get sent to a luxury resort instead of something like an actual jail.

Mad_Hatter: It doesnt matter either way. Gravel is doing this in an attempt to be politically relevant again. How do I know? I work in circles that contain political consultants who recommend this sort of strategy, and I've recommended it myself.

I worked as a consultant for a state representative between college and graduate school. I worked on a larger team of people that did consulting. Obviously I wasn't senior enough to make direct recommendations, but I had enough connections to make sure my suggestions that were taken seriously. The politician was struggling to remain in the news and get media attention, and had apathetic supporters. Since the district was known to mostly contain highly liberal enclaves (university towns, etc.), we encouraged him to drop hints that he believed in the 9/11 truth movement and make absolute rants against the Bush administration on every possible occasion, even though none of us nor him believed in the truth movement or had a seething hatred for Bush. And even though he had no real power over national politics at his level.

It worked like a charm. Truthers are generally driven by hatred and rage, when you give them the appearance that you agree with their hatred they will blindly support you. I won't claim that truthers helped turn the election results through such manipulation, but as part of a larger political strategy to appeal to radicals its a good plan.

Why? Because truthers are being manipulated by the politicians like a fiddle, and your all oblivious to it. Concentrations of truthers work like zombie armies: completely loyal to the politicians that feed them little bits and pieces of what they want to hear. If the truthers think you actually care about their cause, they'll support you on absolutely everything else.

Its political manipulation at its finest, and a its the type of thing politicians dream about. Feed a group of people their hatred back to them - in this case, blame Bush/Cheney for everything and claim that 9/11 was a massive conspiracy - and they are completely loyal to you. It requires little to no action beyond speeches, and if you live in a very liberal area you can get away with it and not hit the media's radar that your pandering to the conspiracy theorist demographic.

If you seriously think the so called "politicians" who support the truth movement are in this for anything other than their personal political goals and are exploiting you, you truly don't understand politics. Its not personal - politicians do this to all radical fringe groups who operate off of highly charged negative emotion focused at one target (usually passionate people based on positive emotions are not politically involved).

[edit on 19-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

If it came down to it, Bush or Cheney would be sacrificed before they could tell any genuine 911 truth. No one is above the rules of the game. Cheney will be lucky to survive a few more years anyway due to his various heart failures.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Mad_Hatter: It doesnt matter either way. Gravel is doing this in an attempt to be politically relevant again. How do I know? I work in circles that contain political consultants who recommend this sort of strategy, and I've recommended it myself.

...
[edit on 19-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Well I hear what you are saying and I believe you. However look at it this way - it is a sword that cuts both ways. Being who he is he just brings more spotlight... and even credibility... to the truth-movement. Sure he may be using us. But we are also using him.

Wait a second... I'm really confused here...

So Gravel is calling for a new investigation into 9/11 on the same day that Obama named Lee Hamilton, the guy in charge of the 9/11 Commission, as a foreign policy advisor???





And all you people who are happy about the call for a new 9/11 investigation are also backing Obama??


Something's not making sense here.

Originally posted by jamie83
And all you people who are happy about the call for a new 9/11 investigation are also backing Obama??


Something's not making sense here.

Well, I would not call Gravel an Obama supporter; he's been critical of the Democratic party as of late. However, you are on to something.

The "Truthers" (or to be more accurate "The Agendists") have their feathers up because a well-known figure is calling for a new investigation. Finally, the truth will be revealed, they believe. But will it?

Look the people who have volunteered to be on the new commission. Mike Gravel, Lori Van Auken, Bishop Thomas Gumbleton. Does anyone here think they are interested in an honest investigation, or do you think they have already formulated their conclusions and want to push an agenda?

If you think they are interested in "the truth," re-read Amy Goodman's interview with Gravel. His mind is already made-up.

This is not about "the truth," but pushing an agenda. Of course, that is exactly what the 9-11 Agenda Movement wants.

Because they don't really want a new 9/11 investigation; or rather, they don't want a true investigation. They want forgone conclusions, just like the vast majority of the "truthers." They want to push an agenda, not find the truth. If there was a new investigation, and it did not give them the conclusion they want (ie: an inside job) they will denounce it as illegitimate and a further part of the cover-up. There is no interest in truth in the 9/11-"truth" movement.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by SaviorComplex]

I would have to agree with that partially. First we need to describe what and who are part of the so-called "real 9/11 truth" movement. Well, in my personal opinion based on testimony and statements from respectable and credible sources, the "real" movement would be those that support the demolition of the buildings and planes hitting the towers and all that. All of that information would be on the one side.
On the other, you have the "no-plane" theory which is really not a theory at all but more than likely a fact. Those people like me and others like John Lear, and many other pilots, can obviously understand that no planes crashed at the Pentagon and PA., but when we say no planes hit the towers then everyone gets all upset because they, "saw it on TV" and all this stuff. Well I didn't watch it on TV that day, I was in class but I've seen the "live" footage from that day, very interesting. Also, based on what pilots have said about how Boeing aircraft can and can NOT fly, it is quite easy to see that no planes were used. Throw that in with conflicting data from the flight recorders with what was reported, not to mention the outrageous manuevers the "hijackers" performed.

To get back to the OP's post here, this commission is a great thing, no doubts there!! However, are they going to take ALL points of view on this?? Are they going to listen to professional pilots who say the "hijackers" could not have flown those planes into the towers?? Let's be honest, NONE of that will come up in the "new and unbiased" commission. If you want the so-called "real" or "accepted" 9/11 "truth" then just watch LooseChange and listen to Alex Jones because they, being AJ, Bermas, Dillon Avery, etc..., outright REFUSE to talk about the no-plane theory, believe me I've called them up to talk about it...wasn't going to happen. Meanwhile, extremely experienced pilots come forward and say that there were none.

We shall see how "unbiased" this commission will actually be given what we know now. I'm hoping for the best.

Purduegrad05

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Purduegrad05]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Light it makes no difference if he is exploiting the people or not the fact still remains that a lot of people feel the 9/11 investigation was inadequate at best or bogus at worst. These people include widows of people who died in 9/11 per hearings that were done in 2005 I believe. There are a lot of questions not answered and should be answered in a manner that doesnt stonewall or dodge questions posed by the people.

We the people are nearing 1 trillion dollars in a war and have lost many lives directly to the fact of 9/11 or so the government says. The government works for us Im not sure if you remember this or not and if the people who are paying a fortune in blood and treasure are asking questions they need to be answered or we the people need to hold taxes from the government. We went to war over taxation without representation and right now neither party in government represents us in many issues including this one.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


ALight....that is a very valid point you make, I believe. It's a tried-and-true tactic that was used by Republicans (I prefer the term 'Republicants') to create the so-called 'Religious Right' movement. That term is such an oxymoron, yet no one noticed as they jumped on the bandwagon.

TO Purduegrad:

I think if you asked around enough you'd find about 20,000 professional airline pilots who disagree with J. Lear and his ilk. So, (generously) 100 pilots, or so, not all of them airline professionals, not all of them with actual experience flying the jets in question, make incredible claims, and don't even seem to agree with each other at times anyway.

BUT, having said that, I nevertheless applaud Sen. Gravel's actions. Perhaps, somehow, there will a final definitive answer, and we can stop arguing about it.

(Only problem then, is --- what would happen to ATS??)

the problem with a "independant panel" ?

You think that those who decide would allow someone on this panel that doesnt think Bush and Cheney arent guilty?


Give it a rest. Bush and Cheney didnt hire someoen to crash planes into the WTC

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Great news!! I kind of thought we were in a pause mode until after the elections...hmm...maybe not.

I think people are well aware that Georgie has bought acres of land in Paraguay. If we don't get him now, we never will as Paraguay doesn't extradite criminals. Hence why all the Nazis lived there. Well, at least the ones the US didn't bring over here from Operation Paperclip.

There are also some 40,000 Germans or people of German descent, many of whom openly supported the Nazis before and during World War II. A number of prominent Nazis, among them Josef Mengele of Auschwitz, found temporary shelter in Paraguay.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Because they don't really want a new 9/11 investigation; or rather, they don't want a true investigation. They want forgone conclusions, just like the vast majority of the "truthers." They want to push an agenda, not find the truth. If there was a new investigation, and it did not give them the conclusion they want (ie: an inside job) they will denounce it as illegitimate and a further part of the cover-up. There is no interest in truth in the 9/11-"truth" movement.

I just love how this is used as an excuse to not do a real investigation.

And what would you sheeple do if it actually came out that it was an "inside job"? Probably do the exact same you predict the "truthers" would do. Deny, deny, deny.

Originally posted by Griff

I just love how this is used as an excuse to not do a real investigation.

Stacking an "independent" commission with people who already have their minds made up is not a "real-investigation." Only the 9-11 Agendists would think otherwise, because they have no interest in truth.

Originally posted by Griff
And what would you sheeple do if it actually came out that it was an "inside job"?

Since the Agendists want to condescend and call anyone who doesn't agree with them "sheeple," (which is really rich, by the by, coming from a group of people who believe everything Alex Jones says. "If it's on the internet, it must be true! If they are saying what I want them to say, it must be true!"), I'm just going to go ahead and call every single Agendist "a retard." And yes, I know that is insulting to retards, who have an infinite amount more sense than the Agendists, but I don't think there is a better description.

But I disgress. It won't "come out" that it was actually an inside job, unless the retards get their way and stack the commission with other-retards who have no interest in truth, but already have their *Snip* minds made-up.

Truth matters little to the 9-11 *Snip* Movement.


[edit on 19-6-2008 by SaviorComplex]

Mod Edit: Please Review Discussion Etiquette #1

[edit on 19-6-2008 by MemoryShock]

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Actually, I only WANT the truth. I want ALL of the evidence provided as if it were a 'criminal investigation' just like it was. Not hearsay from either side, truthers or believers alike. I want to be able to truly hear the facts. Right now, with my logical thinking on the information that has been presented by both sides, I KNOW that there needs to be another investigation. I don't believe the official story at all because of all of the lies this administration and other 'experts' have been caught in. Does this mean that they are ALL lying? No. I just want to see the facts without the BS statement of 'National Security'. That is the biggest farce copout I have ever seen and this administration uses it like toilet paper.

However, I must agree with you on one aspect. I feel that a good portion of the 'truthers' will indeed disagree with a new investigation if it comes out supporting the 'official story'.

The only way I can see avoiding this is if every single piece of evidence is released. This means intel on the noise beforehand all the way to whatever pieces of metal is left from the buildings. Oh yeah, can't have that because it was DESTROYED! Evidence, destroyed! Why is that?

So yes, I just want the truth. I'm not pushing an agenda or anything. I just want to see ALL of the evidence so I can see the truth of the matter.

reply to post by dariousg


Anyone remember the 'accidental' fire in the Old Executive Office Building here, in DC? Some months ago, now....memories get short. [edit here] Looked it up, was in December 2007.

Well, this 'accidental' fire allegedly started in a wiring junction closet, quite near the Veep's "ceremonial" offices.

Now, the OEOB is indeed, old...late 19th century, and has been undergoing renovations to make it more fire-proof, and compliant with codes. Funny, though, this fire happened in a part of the building that had ALREADY been renovated!!!

Guess what? The DCFD were not allowed to investigate the cause ... National Security reasons. Only the SS and the FBI were allowed. Oh, I wrote SS ... silly me, I mean the 'Secret Service'. Not the Gestapo SS, heh heh....

"some files may have been damaged or lost..." Not a direct quote, a piecing together of various reports. So, based on what I read, those would be my quotes.

Edit after the Google search.

[edit on 6/19/0808 by weedwhacker]

[edit on 6/19/0808 by weedwhacker]

The layers of disinformation make fools of us all. Bottom level believers swill down whatever vile concoction of an explanation the current administration, well, administered to the masses.

Next up we have the anti-truth skeptics, who use neo-con tactics of FUD, while holding themselves above those who question some fairly essential nuggets of truth. Regardless of how a anti-truther predicts a biased outcome based on their own ignorance and fear of the repercussions for the sand digging, it doesn't change the facts: of which the anti-truthers only have incomplete propaganda to rely on. WT7 anyone? Does it scare you that your zealous faith in the government "story" will be revealed for the weak rational, and thus weak mind behind the beliefs? Before you speak of agenda, examine your own selfish, go-along-get-along stance.

Then there is the truth movement. What we have is a group of people varied in sincerity and credibility. Just as with the Zealotipublicans, by and large good people are searching for a better story, a better "truth. Just as in the anti-truth movement, there are those preying on the population of discontents for their own gains. Alex Jones is an example of truth exploitation. He is no different from the farthest right-wing neo-con towing the party line as part of a strategy: he just bats for the other team. From La to New York, a corked bat is still a corked bat.

Oddly enough, I might be an elitist for saying this, but I don't know what to believe. The official explanation for 9/11 might be a cover story (concise, rational thought usually changes "might" to "has to be") but if that is true, is not the truth movement subject to contamination as well? Might not the truth movement be just another layer of disinformation, fodder to occupy us? Everyone has an opinion on the subject, one way or the other, and we are polarized behind this debate. How different is this outcome than the polarization politics of the last 7.5 years?

It could all be a load of crap, every last bit of it. 9/11 "might" have been performed outside of the goverment control, but that still wouldn't stop the administration from exploiting the event to achieve their ends. We have to be very carefull which spoon we are choosing to be fed by.

There is no absolute truth out there, and anyone who claims to know it, or argue against another's absolute knowledge, might just be buying into staged divisive debate. Of course, either side might already have absolute truth. It is accepting these possibilities that will remove the iron curtain of arrogance that so many truthers and skeptics hide behind.

I don't comment much on the whole 911 thing. im not sure where I stand on it.

and I think that is the essential tactic of both sides here, those who know the truth ( on both sides ), and those who think they know the truth ( on both sides ).

and it is to, flood the echo chamber (the internet) with as much information as possible so as to narrow the ability to decide.

it serves both sides. it keeps the debate open for those who know the truth and want to rewrite it, and for those who know the truth and want to keep it from becoming re-written.

those who don't know the truth will either sit incapacitated, or follow on one side or the other.

seems to be the only sensible explanation to this whole 911 phenomenon.
my 2 cents anyway.

This NEEDS to happen. We will have to insure that, when bush and cheney are in jail, they are in a regular "dont drop the soap" prison. That's all I want from this.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Stacking an "independent" commission with people who already have their minds made up is not a "real-investigation." Only the 9-11 Agendists would think otherwise, because they have no interest in truth.

And the government agencies are different how?

Since the Agendists want to condescend and call anyone who doesn't agree with them "sheeple," (which is really rich, by the by, coming from a group of people who believe everything Alex Jones says. "If it's on the internet, it must be true! If they are saying what I want them to say, it must be true!"), I'm just going to go ahead and call every single Agendist "a retard." And yes, I know that is insulting to retards, who have an infinite amount more sense than the Agendists, but I don't think there is a better description.

Yes, I will admit, I am an Agendist. My agenda to seek truth. Sorry that instills fear in you?

BTW, I dislike Alex Jones.

But I disgress. It won't "come out" that it was actually an inside job, unless the retards get their way and stack the commission with other-retards who have no interest in truth, but already have their retarded minds made-up.

Truth matters little to the 9-11 Retard Movement.

Must have hit a nerve eh?

I'm sorry, but the only ones who are against finding out the truth of 9/11 are the perpetrators. Are you one of them? If not, why do you oppose so much? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".