Masons not a secret society

In defence of myself and usual tirade I get from Masonic Lite:
1. I have never said that "that the Supreme Council controls the Third Degree"
2. Surprise, surprise - as is now posted in a thread, I have provided 2 accounts of the 32nd Degree, both of which document that a suit of armour is the main component of the 32nd Degree.
3. 32nd Degree Masons are as rare as hens teeth and there sure aren't any real ones on this board even though practically every Mason claims to be one.

As far as my personal experiences with Freemasonry - why would someone make this sort of thing up?

By the way the reference to being "brainwashed by some loony neo-pagen cult" was not actually directed at the Freemasons yet you took it to be such - is it how you see yourselves?

Originally posted by MrNECROS

[deletia]

3. 32nd Degree Masons are as rare as hens teeth and there sure aren't any real ones on this board even though practically every Mason claims to be one.

[deletia]

Please don't say this again. It is an insulting lie. I myself am a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason, regularly made so in a recognised and regular consistory in the name and under the auspices of the Supreme Council 33^o for Canada. You seem to have no idea of the way things actually work in Scottish Rite Freemasonry, but that's OK because you are not a Scottish Rite Freemason. But to calim that someone is not a 32nd Degree in the rite when they are is quite, quite insulting.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

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On other threads, he claims [...] that knowing two 32� is analogous to knowing two members of the British royal family (although there are over 1.5 million 32� Masons in the U.S alone; over half of the members of my Blue Lodge hold this degree).

Ah, well, no insult to the Royal Family (to whom I am and will always be Loyal), but most 32nd degree Scottish Rite Masons I have met are really Princes among men, so in a sense this is true.
I've always felt that their is great use in the (perhaps somewhat overblown) titles granted to men in the Scottish Rite, since those who apply to themselves an expansive title feel more obliged to act like expansive men. If I were to always think of myself as "Mr. Kennedy," then I don't think I'd have quite as much incentive to be a worthwhile individual as when I think of myself as "Sovereign Prince Rose-Croix" or "Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret."

Originally posted by MrNECROS
In defence of myself and usual tirade I get from Masonic Lite:
3. 32nd Degree Masons are as rare as hens teeth and there sure aren't any real ones on this board even though practically every Mason claims to be one.

MrNECROS, the sad truth is that 32nd and even 33rd degree SJSR Masons are common (I play golf with a collection of 33rd's, PGM's and PP's) they are just like anyone else (little older) but hardly this exalted rarity that you purport them to be. Let's examine briefly how we could determine if in fact a 32nd or 33rd degree Mason is such a rarity. Being a devout capitalist, I always say: follow the money. A quick search of the internet will show literally hundreds of Masonic jewelry and supply businesses selling of all things 32nd and 33rd degree rings and other paraphernalia (not to mention KT, and Shriner bling bling) the simple truth is companies could not produce these items in quantity if there was no demand. I know the quick answer here; these items are bought by people who aren�t 32nd or 33rd's; just ones that play them on the internet. If your logic is convoluted in such a manner, and your deny the depth and breadth of just the SRSJ claims to number of Valleys (Buildings), points of charitable outreach (in your mind manned by a single man, the only 32nd for a 1,000 miles) then from reality's grip you have surely slipped. Do the math, supply and demand, or is there enough Monopoly Money in the world conspiracy of Freemasonry to cloud the truth?

p.s. Your attempt at �Lite� hearted humor is tired, ML is probably one of the most respectful posters on ATS, there is no �defence� for this conduct.


[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by infinite
no one knows cause its a secret, they make out to be "friendly" but some masons act "weird". Im think its power cause the top masons have some of the powerful jobs in the world.....Blair,Bush,Clinton and majority of political world are masons.

Neither Bush nor Clinton were Masons. Clinton was a member of DeMolay, the youth organization, but did not continue on into the adult side of the fraternity. The last U.S. President that was a Mason was Gerald Ford. Sorry to disappoint you.

Originally posted by infiniteonly white male can join, every heard the term "a group of white men rule the world" its likely to be true. You have to be "invited" by a mason so you can join cause the masons come for you not you go to them.

Again, not true. Masonry is open to people of all races, creeds, and colors. There was a time in our history when this was true and blacks were excluded, which led to the development of Prince Hall Masonry, however those days are gone. While only men may become masons, there is a sister organization called the Order of the Eastern Star for women. In addition, there are several irregular masonic bodies (co-masonry, memphis-misriam, etc.) that will initiate women. Also untrue is the statement that you are invited to join. The fact is, masons are not supposed to solicit membership, you must ask to join. Haven't you ever seen the 2B1 Ask 1 stickers?

Originally posted by WgatensonIf they are not a secret seocity, why is the list of there members secret?

If they are not a secret seocity, why do they make you take an oath of secrecy, with the threat of burrying your tounge at a sacred spot somewhere on the east coast?

If they are not a secret seocity, why don't you get me some pictures of the inside of there ritual rooms?

Masons built and run the country.

p.s. Donations are tax wright-offs

1) It's called respecting an individual's privacy, though most individuals will gladly proclaim their membership.

2)Oath of secrecy is called tradition. The second part of your statement is innaccurate. Want to see our ritual? Go to your local Barnes & Noble and pick up a copy.

3)Pictures you say? Gladly:

www.pagrandlodge.org...

Enjoy


Yes, masons did help to build this country, and we are very proud of that. Are we still running the country, not by a long shot. Yes, contributions are tax deductible, what is your point?

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by swordsman]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
3. 32nd Degree Masons are as rare as hens teeth and there sure aren't any real ones on this board even though practically every Mason claims to be one.

This alone shows your ignorance of Scottish Rite Masonry, and is the reason your �research� cannot be trusted. Approximately half of all Masons in the United States hold at least the 32� in the Scottish Rite. I�ve already posted a link to the webpage of the Supreme Council 33�, S.J., USA, which refutes this statement of Necros.
Also, until 2000, it was required that everyone who applied to join the Shriners be a 32� Scottish Rite Mason and/or a Masonic Knight Templar. The fact that there were at the time nearly a million Shriners in the US further refutes him.
The 32� is not a �rarity�, and in the USA, any Master Mason in good standing is eligible for it. Even the 33� is not a �rarity�. The Statutes of the Supreme Council allow the Sovereign Grand Inspector General of each state, every two years, to nominate 3 Brothers for the 33� for every 100 32� Masons who reside in the state, although the Supreme Council retains the right to confer the 33� on a larger number if it so desires.
In my Scottish Rite Temple, we have approximately 2500 members, with our Temple�s jurisdiction covering 5 counties in the state. Of these, we have approx. 25 33� members, with the remaining membership (over two thousand) being 32�.
Following is a link to a degree schedule from the Scottish Rite Temple of Guthrie, Oklahoma, which shows all the degrees from the 4� to the 32� being conferred both in a weekend Reunion, and also in a one day class:
www.guthriescottishrite.org...


Fiat Lvx.


[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Masons do a good job of being mislead, misleading, avoiding certain subjects, by responding vaguely or with a question.Why are ritual needed at all, why the mysteries?Who is the great architect?Why do the symbols have meaning?Why did Albert Pike get quoted saying the things that he said?Why, a 33degree mason would be portrayed by an obelisk, reguardless of what it says on it, does not take away the meaning.The stuff is not adding up.

Originally posted by jhova
Masons do a good job of being mislead, misleading, avoiding certain subjects, by responding vaguely or with a question.Why are ritual needed at all, why the mysteries?

The ritual because it conferrs a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols. The mysteries because they lead a man to think for himself about the meaning of the symbols, rather than doing his thinking for him.

Who is the great architect?

God.

Why do the symbols have meaning?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be symbols. They'd be meaningless things.

Why did Albert Pike get quoted saying the things that he said?

Because people like to lie about a great man.

Why, a 33degree mason would be portrayed by an obelisk, reguardless of what it says on it, does not take away the meaning.The stuff is not adding up.

George Washington was not a 33rd Degree Mason. He was not a member of the Scottish Rite to my knowledge. Also, I do not believe there was any Scottish Rite in America during the period George Washington was alive.

It's a spire, for the same reason churches have spires... it reaches to heaven. On its tip it says, "Praise God."

Free Mason = Free Man = Free Will. Nobody forces you to do anything. If you want to join there must be some sort of reason why huh? They must be the keepers of some Relatively Secret ("Occult" - wow scary huh - The Word just means Hidden - Just like "Bible" simply means "Book") Knowledge/Wisdom/Information. Masonry means WORK. It is a CRAFT. It is not for the LAZY & Ignorant - it is also not for the Dogmatic!!!

That being said - if this was a perfect world there would be no such thing as Discrimination (Based on Race or Sex) or Elitism (Based on how much Money you have). Unfortunately this is not a perfect world & so there are organizations in this world that are elitist & do discriminate - it is sad but true! "Politics" is everywhere you go these days - we just have to deal with it!

Originally posted by jhova
Why did Albert Pike get quoted saying the things that he said?

I'll give you a simple example.
Take 2 sentences.


1) "I think Adolf Hitler was a genius but he was evil and despicable".
2) "I think Adolf Hitler was a genius"


Now if you took sentence 1, you would see that I don't like Adolf Hitler. But if you took sentence 2 you would think that I admired him. It's a simple thing to stop the 1st sentence at the word "genius" and ignore the rest, isn't it?
This is basically what happens to the Albert Pike quotations that you see on the internet. People don't take the whole thing as it was written. They pick and choose and twist out of context - and you can do that with any literature - even the Bible.

I found out that certain people who join into the lodge sware to secrecy before hearing what they're suppsed to keep secret.
what if these people are wolves in sheep clothing, for instance being open about their wearabouts and meetings, travels etc but not about what goes on in there. Their rituals, if it is so much of God why keep their rituals a secret. Well yeah ok in a group like that, i understand that certain information shared among the group should stay there but why everything. So what if they donate to charities or whatever, what if that's just a coverup. why do they keep secrets from their wives. They get privelages that the normal man would not in this lifetime get or he probably would have to work a lifetime while they can in a matter of......
is this food for thought or thought for food

I should note that's not the only thing that happens with Albert Pike. Many people also make up "quotes" from Albert Pike out of whole cloth. I also read someone recently attribute a section from the excreble anti-semitic hoax "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" to Albert Pike. There's no end to people who hate Freemasonry enough to lie about it.

Originally posted by ELY
why do they keep secrets from their wives. :

You pose a lot of "what ifs".
"What if" the moon was made of green cheese? We know that it isn't so the question isn't relevant is it?

As for keeping secrets from our wives? Have you ever been married? I dunno about anyone else but I wouldn't dare keep a secret from my wife!!! She'd see through me straight away.

In fact, it's common for a freemason's wife to know just as much about freemasonry as he himself does. My wife actually knows the ritual better than I do. How do you think that I learn it?
And believe me: she's a stickler for the exact words and has a habit of nit-picking just when you think that you've got it right.

ELY, check out the threads within this forum, why keep everything secret? Nothing is secret save a few Tokens, and Words that we (Masons) use for recognition. These remaining "secrets" have no bearing on what the Craft is, or our impact on society. The community service and charitable giving is a hallmark of our institution, and before the internet our principal way of interacting with the general public. Now you have the luxury of learning what "it's all about" from the comfort of home.

I should note that even I, who am possibly the strictest person I know about the secrecy of the ritual, feel that it's OK to talk with your wife about it, as long as she doesn't run around telling everybody. I mean, come on, I've never been married or even had a serious relationship, but I know that keeping everything to yourself about Masonry would be a surefire way to wind up sleeping on the couch.

Originally posted by ELY
They get privelages that the normal man would not in this lifetime get or he probably would have to work a lifetime while they can in a matter of......
is this food for thought or thought for food

What are these priveleges, exactly? I've worked pretty well directly for the "highest ranking" Masons in my jurisdiction, as well as the Sovereign Grand Commander for the Scottish Rite in Canada, and the only privelege I've gotten is the peace of mind from having worked my butt off for a good cause. I've never met a Mason who had any extraordinary priveleges in the sense you're thinking of, either... although I'll be honest and say that being a Mason is a privelege, and that Brothers do help each other out in ordinary ways.

For example, today I got a ride from Downtown (I was visiting the Art Gallery, not plotting to take over the world) to my house (a 400 sq. foot basement apartment, since I'm so priveleged) from my Royal Arch Lodge's secretary, whom I happened to bump in to. I saved myself a whole $2 (bus fare - no car, even though I'm so priveleged)! On the other hand, what I consider the real privelege was that I got to visit with my Brother and see how he was doing.

It seems to me that most masons are completely ignorant of any of the meanings of the spiritual and magical rituals they conduct.

They speak thewords,wear the clothes and tie pins etc.

The ones I have had dealings with are for the most part terrible snobs whose sole goal in life is one up manship and to be that little bit better than their peers.

The secret part of the rituals, passwords, handshakes just adds to that appeal for them.

I do not however belive them all too be bad I have one good friend whose is a mason because his whole male family is and AK on this board did give me some helpful advice recently.

But as for the rest well, I would not say it is a secret society more a society with secretive egotistical people.

Before you ask I have been asked to join I have declinced on several occasions as it clashes with other beliefs I have.

Masons are NOT ALLOWED to ask someone to join the Craft ANYWHERE in the world except Australia. The penealty for "soliciting membership" in my Jurisdication is expulsion from the Craft. So if you were "asked" to join Masonry, something was deeply, deeply wrong. You may have been approached by a clandestine body which only claimed to be Masonry.

Re: Magic. I have to say that there have been cases in the past where eminent Masons have made it clear that it is a landmark of our Order that Masons do not practice Magic of any kind. Now, I don't care about what a Mason does in the privacy of his own home, but our rituals are unequivocally non-magical.

Oh dear and I thought you were one of the good guys!

Of course people are asked maybe not always directly.

I still have uncompleted documentation and I was, the person who did the asking is the son of one of the London Underground, he told me this freely.

I am sure that you will not belive me but it is truth.

As far as magic goes, the rituals are magical just as many are i.e catholic ones , ever seen a lesser known piece called the magic flute, the teachingsof crowley etc.

You seem like a good man but do know the foundation on which your society was based?

The symbolism, tree of life, magial hebrew numbers, Ioam etc.

Originally posted by mage
It seems to me that most masons are completely ignorant of any of the meanings of the spiritual and magical rituals they conduct.

They speak thewords,wear the clothes and tie pins etc.

The ones I have had dealings with are for the most part terrible snobs whose sole goal in life is one up manship and to be that little bit better than their peers.

The secret part of the rituals, passwords, handshakes just adds to that appeal for them.

I do not however belive them all too be bad I have one good friend whose is a mason because his whole male family is and AK on this board did give me some helpful advice recently.

But as for the rest well, I would not say it is a secret society more a society with secretive egotistical people.

Before you ask I have been asked to join I have declinced on several occasions as it clashes with other beliefs I have.

I've quoted in entirety for the sake of future reference, and to prevent the "editing" of history.

Masons are not ignorant of the ritual they conduct, they are NOT magical, and I dare say your interpretation of "spiritual" and that of ours (a stretch on my part) is something altogether different.

There is envy in your next three passages, a desire to have that which you do not, you feel left out?

I'm heartened that you "belive" that some Masons are good, perhaps with time and maturity a more enlightened viewpoint can be attained.

Your resentment is showing again, flailing away, your infantile barbs are of no consequence to the Brethren here, or in your life, look inward (a polite way to say: grow up).

As to your assertion of being invited "several" times I can only assume that you live in the U.K. where this practice is allowed, however, I doubt that after you "declinced " the first time that subsequent inquiries were made (L, MA, perhaps you can elaborate on this process). Fortunately in the U.S. we have eschewed such a technique for enhancing our membership, for obviously the Brethren can make mistakes as to who is worthy, and well qualified.