No Sex Before Marriage

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Freenrgy2

 

Freenrgy, you are being beyond rude to Whammy and you are still derailing the thread. First of all, that link was a whole lot of nothing. Sorry.

I was in no way beyond rude and I bet you didn't read one page. It's hard for Christians to read scripture the way it was actually written. It's so contrary to what Christendom teaches that it must be wrong. Too bad, you might have actually learned some real scriptural truths.

Second, I can somewhat see how the debate of free will vs. predestination could come into play if we were discussing salvation. That would be a fascinating debate.

You are the one who espoused free will with regards to this topic. Go back and read what you wrote:

If you want to have premarital sex then that is your right. If you want to practice abstinence then that is your right. If you want to practice heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual sex then that is your right. However, do those things out of your own free will and don't try to 'rewrite' or reinterpret the Bible in an effort to justify your lifestyle. The Bible says what it says on such things and that is that.

So, how does one do these things out of their own FREE WILL. Do you see the tie in now? And you specifically relate FREE WILL as a Biblical principal.

However, what does free will really have to do with this debate about premarital sex? Nothing. What you're basically trying to imply concerning free will and this debate, whether you are doing it intentionally or not, is that we can't help ourselves if we have premarital sex because it's all predetermined. No. No. No. You are doing the exact thing I mentioned in my first reply to this thread only you are being more crafty. And that is, you are trying to justify the sin by thinking it's not our fault if we have premarital sex.

Do you get off putting words into my mouth. Where have i justified ANYTHING!! I am not saying that it is pre-determined. That, apparently, is how you interpret what I said. Gee, didn't you mention mis-interpretting earlier?

Then, you asked me previously to cite scriptures backing up the doctrine of free will although in the same comment you said the Bible we have today was manipulated by men. So, I asked a very valid question: Why are you asking me to cite scripture you already believe is erroneous? Bigwhammy then answered your question citing scripture but what did you say? That all he was doing was citing the Bible put together by the church. Then link him to a website that... [drumroll]... cites scripture to back up your view.

You are beyond the pale. I wrote VERY clearly that I DO NOT believe the scriptures to be erroneous. Again, you are putting words into my mouth. I stated that I wholy believe that the original Greek and Hebrew as inspired. But where did the Bible come from? I stated that the Bible was put together by men and later interpreted. This, like it or not, has led to much doctrinal debate. And again, for the THIRD TIME. You were the one who FIRST offered to show me scripture. I merely asked you to show me in scripture just ONE verse that states that man has a WILL free from external causes; a WILL that is truly free. How you or anyone can take this and twist it to state that I am justifying sex outside of marriage is truly mind-boggling.

And, the sciptures he gave in NO WAY relate to FREE WILL. This is a myth created by the church. The site I linked to SCRIPTURALLY argues against this myth. The scriptures beyond a shadow of a doubt do not teach that man has a FREE WILL.

Now either make a new thread about free will or at the very least explain how free will ties into the subject of premarital sex as if we're a world full of zombie sex addicts that have no control over what we do with our bodies. I'm not buying that.

Again, totally misleading and intentionally putting words in my mouth.

You're then trying to throw a cog into the works by talking about 'causes.' That still is completely irrelevant. If somebody finds a briefcase full of money, they don't have to take it. If someone is attracted to another person, they don't have to have sex with them. Sin is a choice and temptation is a battle.

You got part of it right. Sin, IS a CHOICE. I dare you to think of any choice you make that isn't in some way a result of a CAUSE. Do you believe that God created everything? Do you believe that he CAUSED everything around you to exist? Do you think HE stopped CAUSING and just turned us loose?

Lastly, the question of this thread is this: Premarital Sex. Is it right or is it wrong? The question is not whether or not we have any control over it.

Wrong, the question of this thread as put forth by the OP is and I quote:

Is it the word of God or a way of controlling or manipulating the general population? By means most likely carried out by the state also accomodated by state sponsored non-profit organizations.
Does scripture really support this religious doctrine?
Is it not a tool re-inforced by religion but in fact used by the state in some significant manner? Is it not being taught somehow in our public education?
I always turn to Romans 13 for blatant misrepresentations of the Bible and go from there.
What do you guys and girls think? What is marriage all about?

The question of control is not whether WE have control but rather is the CHURCH controlling and manipulating the population with this teaching.

And going along with blatant misrepresentations (especially from church leaders) is the false teaching that man has a free will.

It simply blows my mind how someone tries to skirt around the issue any way they can in an effort to free themselves of guilt or personal responsibility. If you want to sleep around- go for it. That is your choice. However, do not manipulate what the Bible says to justify the sin. Period.

I didn't skirt around anything. I'm happily married and don't believe sleeping around is o.k. However, if I were to make a CHOICE and SIN, then I would do so not because I have a free will but because something CAUSED me to make that choice. Who made the CAUSE. GOD. Did HE make me SIN. No. I made the CHOICE to go against what HE WILLED in ME to do. Do you see how simple it is? Where's justification for going around SINNING in any of this?

I am a Christian, but I am sick and tired of those who come into these threads stating that they are a Christian, lecturing the rest of us on what the Bible says, but then can't prove what they are saying. I guess we are to just take your word for it.

Then someone asks you to prove what you are saying, since you said the Bible does indeed say it and you ATTACK them and PUT WORDS INTO THEIR MOUTH, while distorting the truth. The good thing is that all of these posts are here for all to read and they can see for themselves what I actually did and did not say.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

Just for the record, I do not consider anything that has to do with rape, domestic violence, divorce, parental custody and rights, child support or social security to be taking away from this conversation as long as it is represented in a respectable manner. It is all relative.

Freenrgy2s position is that because God is sovereign - then he might as well sin all he wants because no matter what he does it is Gods will. So anything goes right Freenergy? Again sounds like a big excuse a kid would make up.

What would the words "self control" mean if there was no such thing as free will?

1 Timothy 3
2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate,self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

On sex Paul taught married couples...

5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

So if we had no free will. Why would Satan tempt us? Why would God judge us, if he knew we could not make decisions? Of course we make decisions. God allows us to make mistakes, that's how we learn the best. I suggest freenergy tell the next cop that pulls him for speeding that it wasn't his fault - Gods will made him do it

On the OP this verse sums it up on waiting for marriage...
(again notice "control themselves" implying free will)

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion [literally, "be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust)" - see Strong's Greek Dictionary]." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)

[edit on 5/22/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. I said NO such thing and believe NO such thing. If you are as smart in theology as you think you are, I dare you to go to the link I provided as it answers all of these very common questions that people have when the notion that free will doesn't exist is mentioned. However, if you actually believe that not having a free will means that I justify SINNING, then this is a perfect example of why some of what is taught from today's pulpits is completely wrong and completely against what scripture teaches.

But you, sir, are bordering on slander if you continue to attribute ideals and beliefs to me which I have made it clear that I do not hold.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

reply to post by Freenrgy2


Please explain WHAT you believe about free-will....
and the thread topic.
I am genuinely interested.

Bigwhammy has quoted some of the passages.
Your opinion?

The Bible doesn't come from JUST one source.

The New Testament MAINLY comes from two.
The Latin Vulgate or
The Byzantine Manuscripts

Early New Testament Manuscripts

The davinci code is not a good source for Bible history....

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by Freenrgy2

 

Please explain WHAT you believe about free-will....
and the thread topic.
I am genuinely interested.

Bigwhammy has quoted some of the passages.
Your opinion?

Nothing wrong with what he quoted. They are perfect scriptures for self-control. But, they have nothing to do with so-called "free will". What do I believe? I believe that there is no such thing as "free will". I believe that we make choices and that these choices are never, ever entirely free to make; that choices are ALWAYS caused.

The discussion about "free-will" came about after another poster stated that if someone were to have sex outside of marriage that they should do so because of their own free will and not to re-interpret the Bible to justify their actions. I simple stated that there was no such thing. If you chose to sleep with someone outside of marriage then you made choice and were caused to make that choice. You didn't make that decision because of some myth called "free-will".

A few posts back, I included a link to a site where there is an excellent explanation of why I believe free will to be a myth. It would take far too long to explain here why. I can't explain in a post what Christendom has been teaching for years. I brought this up because this is a concept almost universally believed by all religions and/or persons. But, it is a belief that has no foundation in scripture and is uterly and completely false.

And, I do not believe that not having a "free will" is any excuse to go around sinning and partying like there's no tomorrow and I sure don't use this to justify any wrongdoing. Sin is still sin. Other posters haven't a clue. They are so enveloped in what Christendom has taught that they can't begin to comprehend how we can not have free will, yet still make a choice to sin. In fact, they resort to downright distorting of the truth and putting words in peoples mouths as to somehow justify their position.

And, yes, pre-marital sex is just as much a sin as extra-marital sex.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

I'm seriously starting to question the intentions of the Mad Hatter antics being displayed on this thread if it is truly that difficult to understand what I said that caused the derailment about free will.: It is our free will [read: choice, decision, option, etc.] to either have premarital sex or abstain. Who could have possibly foreseen the derailment such a simple and very [what I thought would be] obvious statement would have caused?

Unless it is rape, then I would say it is our own free will to have sex or not. It's such a simple concept I'm beginning to feel silly for having indulged in this side debate about free will and how it pertains to the topic (it doesn't) for as long as I have. Just because a cog is thrown into the works about 'causes,' the fact remains the same: CHOICE.

We're not sex zombies. So yes: free will. Choice. Decision. Option. Phrase it however you like.

Geeze.

reply to post by 12.21.12


Oh, I fully understand. The point I am making is basically what you said: This thread is about premarital sex and the possible conspiracy surrounding it whether it be from religion or the state. This thread is not about free will. That is what I was telling the other person.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I'm seriously starting to question the intentions of the Mad Hatter antics being displayed on this thread if it is truly that difficult to understand what I said that caused the derailment about free will.: It is our free will [read: choice, decision, option, etc.] to either have premarital sex or abstain. Who could have possibly foreseen the derailment such a simple and very [what I thought would be] obvious statement would have caused?

Unless it is rape, then I would say it is our own free will to have sex or not. It's such a simple concept I'm beginning to feel silly for having indulged in this side debate about free will and how it pertains to the topic (it doesn't) for as long as I have. Just because a cog is thrown into the works about 'causes,' the fact remains the same: CHOICE.

We're not sex zombies. So yes: free will. Choice. Decision. Option. Phrase it however you like.

Geeze.

There are no antics except for what you and Whammy are doing and that is publically stating that I must be justifying pre-marital sex, simply because I do not believe in free will.

The entire question about free will came about from YOUR post. Nobody said (I sure didn't) that we are sex zombies. That has nothing to do with free will, unless you are of the opinion that it must mean that anything goes. And if anything goes, then why even care what the church teaches?

You need to think about this for a few hundred hours. If nothing causes, inspires, makes, forces, urges, tempts, etc., your choices, then YOU CAN'T EVEN MAKE A CHOICE. But, if something causes, then your choice, decision, option, preference, etc. is not and will never be free.

Incidently, I created a thread on the myth of free will as there is no point in continuing the topic here.

New Thread Here


[edit on 22-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
I was in no way beyond rude and I bet you didn't read one page.

1). Yes you were rude and you are continuing to be rude. You are being rude to anyone who is disagreeing with you. I am very honest about being biased in favor of Christians on ATS and will almost always walk away from an argument I find myself in with another Christian. However, you are being rude so now we are arguing. No worries, though. Christians are family and even families argue from time to time.

2). Yes I did- which is why I was able to point out your logical flaw further below in my comment. So, please let's not make false accusations. I read your article so please don't tell me I did not.

You are the one who espoused free will with regards to this topic.

I most absolutely did. Why? Because it is our free will [read: our conscious choice] whether or not we want to partake in such activities, to sin, and to give in to our temptations. We are not compelled to engage in sexual acts and we have the ability to say 'no' regardless of how much we may not want to. That is free will. Sorry you don't agree. This has got to be one of the silliest debates I have been involved in on this forum.

So, how does one do these things out of their own FREE WILL. Do you see the tie in now? And you specifically relate FREE WILL as a Biblical principal.

I am having a very hard time taking you seriously at this point. You're seriously asking me how we engage in sexual acts out of free will? Unless it is rape, then it is sex out of free will. Pretty simple.

Do you get off putting words into my mouth. Where have i justified ANYTHING!! I am not saying that it is pre-determined. That, apparently, is how you interpret what I said. Gee, didn't you mention mis-interpretting earlier?

Because in the long standing debate of 'free will,' its opposite is predestination. And whether or not you are willing to admit it, the article you provided and accused me of never having read mentions predestination even when it comes to sin. I do believe in predestination and election to an extent. However, when it comes to choosing whether or not to have premarital sex, that is our choice (with the obvious exception of rape).

You're trying to make a very complicated issue on a subject that has led to intense debate among theologians for centuries on a broad scale (free will) and are trying to relate it to such a simple yet acute scale: free will when it comes to the sin of premarital sex. So yes, you started this tangent by making an issue out of it. I stand by my original comment about it being our choice regarding what we do with our own bodies.

You are beyond the pale.

I'll change out my self-tanner immediately. Thanks for the beauty tips.

I wrote VERY clearly that I DO NOT believe the scriptures to be erroneous.

I agree that you did. And you also keep saying that the scriptures people are quoting in this thread have been created by the church. What I am saying is this: that is a contradiction. That is my point. I understand fully what you said but this leads us to our next point...

Again, you are putting words into my mouth. I stated that I wholy believe that the original Greek and Hebrew as inspired. But where did the Bible come from? I stated that the Bible was put together by men and later interpreted.

And on this I will completely agree with you and have said the same thing before on this very website many times. I definitely believe they are inerrant in their original form and will have some imperfections once translated into another language just like any literary work translated into another language will have. However, you keep asking for scriptures. Being that I cannot speak Greek, what will it take to satisfy you if you do not care for English? Whammy already provided examples for you and you said those were passages written by the church (I'm guessing because they were in English and come from the Bible after being canonized, hence the 'church'). Now you're trying to skirt around what he offered by providing a plethora of new excuses.

This, like it or not, has led to much doctrinal debate. And again, for the THIRD TIME. You were the one who FIRST offered to show me scripture. I merely asked you to show me in scripture just ONE verse that states that man has a WILL free from external causes; a WILL that is truly free. How you or anyone can take this and twist it to state that I am justifying sex outside of marriage is truly mind-boggling.

I'll trump your 'third time' because this is now my 'fourth time' I have asked you to make a new thread instead of derailing this one. I detest going on a scripture hunts for someone that I know isn't going to listen to me anyways and the irritation is only compounded when that request is coming from a Christian who should already know exactly what I am talking about.

Whammy already answered you twice but you are redirecting and throwing cogs into the works. But since you insist, here we go. Oh, and lets make it Hebrew and Greek, I suppose:

טו וְאִם רַע בְּעֵינֵיכֶם לַעֲבֹד אֶת-יְהוָה, בַּחֲרוּ לָכֶם הַיּוֹם אֶת-מִי תַעֲבֹדוּן--אִם אֶת-אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר-עָבְדוּ אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר בעבר (מֵעֵבֶר) הַנָּהָר, וְאִם אֶת-אֱלֹהֵי הָאֱמֹרִי אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם יֹשְׁבִים בְּאַרְצָם; וְאָנֹכִי וּבֵיתִי, נַעֲבֹד אֶת-יְהוָה. [פ]

www.mechon-mamre.org...

That is telling us to choose who we will serve. Sounds like we have to make a conscious decision to choose God. Will you choose God or will you choose another 'system?' Will you choose obedience or will you choose sin? Choice. Free will.

And now a little closer to the topic about free will and sin instead of free will and salvation. This one is Greek although the characters are not transfering over correctly:

upotaghte oun tw qew: antisthte de tw diabolw, kai feuxetai af umwn

www.greekbible.com...

That is telling us to resist sin. It is within our power to resist sin and flee from temptation. Our free will, choice, decision, option, to do so.

And, the sciptures he gave in NO WAY relate to FREE WILL.

His scriptures were right on the money and he made the distinction between God's sovereign will and His perfect will. I'm sorry but your capitalization of words is not going to make him wrong and you right.

This is a myth created by the church. The site I linked to SCRIPTURALLY argues against this myth. The scriptures beyond a shadow of a doubt do not teach that man has a FREE WILL.

You mean scriptures spliced together from 'the church?'

You got part of it right. Sin, IS a CHOICE. I dare you to think of any choice you make that isn't in some way a result of a CAUSE. Do you believe that God created everything? Do you believe that he CAUSED everything around you to exist? Do you think HE stopped CAUSING and just turned us loose?

THEN WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? That is exactly what I am saying: Sin is a choice.

Wrong, the question of this thread as put forth by the OP is and I quote...

Already explained by me above but what is the core message in what you just quoted? That the topic is about premarital sex and control by the establishment, whether it be religious or political- not the doctrine and theological debate on free will.

I am a Christian, but I am sick and tired of those who come into these threads stating that they are a Christian, lecturing the rest of us on what the Bible says, but then can't prove what they are saying. I guess we are to just take your word for it.

The feeling is more than mutual. And you have been provided scripture to back up what we are saying but you are skirting around it regardless. I'm sorry you are upset with us for disagreeing with you but that is the way it goes. You took us off on a tangent concerning a debate that has raged on with theologians for centuries. It would be like me taking everyone off on a tangent in this thread about the rapture- we're simply not going to come to an agreement because it is such a heated topic among Christians.

Anyways, it seems you are getting very flustered so maybe we can both step back and take a breather.

Originally posted by AshleyD
1). Yes you were rude and you are continuing to be rude.

What? Did I call anyone juvenille? Did I practically slander someone by putting words into their mouth? I simple reiterated my belief.

I most absolutely did. Why? Because it is our free will [read: our conscious choice] whether or not we want to partake in such activities

Making a choice is not free will. I'm sure you read that in the link I provided.

I am having a very hard time taking you seriously at this point. You're seriously asking me how we engage in sexual acts out of free will? Unless it is rape, then it is sex out of free will. Pretty simple.

This is not what I stated. The point was the choice you make was not because of free will but because something that caused you to make that choice. You are taking this completely out of context.

You're trying to make a very complicated issue on a subject that has led to intense debate among theologians for centuries on a broad scale (free will) and are trying to relate it to such a simple yet acute scale: free will when it comes to the sin of premarital sex. So yes, you started this tangent by making an issue out of it. I stand by my original comment about it being our choice regarding what we do with our own bodies.

I'm only relating this to making a choice. And, yes, it is difficult to understand. That's why God considers the wisdom of this world to be foolish.

"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).

And you also keep saying that the scriptures people are quoting in this thread have been created by the church. What I am saying is this: that is a contradiction. That is my point. I understand fully what you said but this leads us to our next point...

Wrongo. I said the Bible was put together by man and is subject to interpretation, some of which is wrong. Is God wrong? No. Is man's interpretation wrong? Some of it is.

And on this I will completely agree with you and have said the same thing before on this very website many times. I definitely believe they are inerrant in their original form and will have some imperfections once translated into another language just like any literary work translated into another language will have. However, you keep asking for scriptures. Being that I cannot speak Greek, what will it take to satisfy you if you do not care for English? Whammy already provided examples for you and you said those were passages written by the church (I'm guessing because they were in English and come from the Bible after being canonized, hence the 'church'). Now you're trying to skirt around what he offered by providing a plethora of new excuses.

While the scriptures whammy provided were nice, they did not prove the existence of free will in man. There is no such scriptural proof. I provided no excuses and provided a link that explains my belief. What more can I do?

I'll trump your 'third time' because this is now my 'fourth time' I have asked you to make a new thread instead of derailing this one. I detest going on a scripture hunts for someone that I know isn't going to listen to me anyways and the irritation is only compounded when that request is coming from a Christian who should already know exactly what I am talking about.

I created a new thread....see my above post. Scripture hunt? Why even suggest you can find scripture to back up what you believe if you won't do it when asked. Is that how Christians are supposed to be? All talk, no proof? How do you know I wouldn't listen?

Whammy already answered you twice but you are redirecting and throwing cogs into the works. But since you insist, here we go. Oh, and lets make it Hebrew and Greek, I suppose:

טו וְאִם רַע בְּעֵינֵיכֶם לַעֲבֹד אֶת-יְהוָה, בַּחֲרוּ לָכֶם הַיּוֹם אֶת-מִי תַעֲבֹדוּן--אִם אֶת-אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר-עָבְדוּ אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר בעבר (מֵעֵבֶר) הַנָּהָר, וְאִם אֶת-אֱלֹהֵי הָאֱמֹרִי אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם יֹשְׁבִים בְּאַרְצָם; וְאָנֹכִי וּבֵיתִי, נַעֲבֹד אֶת-יְהוָה. [פ]

www.mechon-mamre.org...

Right....you got me.

That is telling us to choose who we will serve. Sounds like we have to make a conscious decision to choose God. Will you choose God or will you choose another 'system?' Will you choose obedience or will you choose sin? Choice. Free will.

NOPE.

And now a little closer to the topic about free will and sin instead of free will and salvation. This one is Greek although the characters are not transfering over correctly:

upotaghte oun tw qew: antisthte de tw diabolw, kai feuxetai af umwn

www.greekbible.com...

That is telling us to resist sin. It is within our power to resist sin and flee from temptation. Our free will, choice, decision, option, to do so.

NOPE.

You mean scriptures spliced together from 'the church?'

No, scripture the way it is truly meant to be read and understood. Nothing there is unsupported by scripture.

reply to post by JesterMan


that was awesome

reply to post by Mad_Hatter

ummmmmm everything you said i agree with it's just that if you don't receive the son(Jesus) who was sacrificed for your sins then you can't receive the father for it is through the son that you'll will receive recognition from the father!!!!!

reply to post by Freenrgy2


I thought this thread was about premarital sex, the only reason I could imagine anyone making a big issue out of their lack of free will would be as an excuse. If you were not trying to argue that , then I must have misunderstood you. So I apologize for that much, but you seemed to be very unnecessarily aggressive toward Ashley when I stepped into this thread.

originally posted by Freenrgy2
Nothing wrong with what he quoted. They are perfect scriptures for self-control. But, they have nothing to do with so-called "free will". What do I believe? I believe that there is no such thing as "free will". I believe that we make choices and that these choices are never, ever entirely free to make; that choices are ALWAYS caused.

We act against the direction of cause all the time.

If you had no free will self control would not be possible. Think about that. The thing that makes human beings unique is we can choose things, even unexpected things. This is what gives the Darwinists fits. According to Darwinism we should always act to our own advantage - for the continuation of our genes through offspring.

People are not slaves to causes and conditions. We think we are but that is a lie of the evil one. Jesus taught us this. When he was in the desert and starving the Devil tempted him to make bread to feed his hunger. Jesus said " Man does not live on bread alone." People can do incredible things like non violent protests such as hunger strikes.

People have a way of rising above their flesh and doing self sacrificing things. Like giving their life to save others. Or quiting a promising career to be a missionary. Or giving away their riches to charity. I believe we can and do rise above causes and conditions. That is Gods challenge to us as believers - in fact.

Let me ask you this as well Freenergy, if we really have no free will then -

Why was the cross necessary at all?










[edit on 5/22/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Decided to post.

This more of less sums it up:

You asked me "For what did Christ suffer and die?" You are inferring from your email that He died to save us FROM HELL. Here are a few of the reasons that Jesus Christ DIED:

"While we were yet sinners, Christ DIED FOR US" (Rom. 5:8 & I Thes. 5:10).

"For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if One died for ALL, then were all dead: and that He DIED FOR ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him WHICH DIED FOR THEM, and rose again" (II Thes. 5:14-15).

"Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3).

"For to this end Christ BOTH DIED, AND ROSE, AND REVIVED [lived again], that He might be Lord both of the DEAD AND LIVING" (Rom. 14:9).

"For in that He died, HE DIED UNTO SIN" (Rom. 6:10).

"Christ DIED FOR THE UNGODLY" (Rom. 5:6).

"But God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were YET SINNERS, Christ DIED FOR US" (Rom. 5:8).

You will look in vain for a Scripture that says Jesus died to keep us out of hell--there is no such Scripture.

And the reasons for Christ "suffering" are also the reasons why He died:

"For asmuch then as Christ HAS SUFFERED FOR US" (I Pet. 4:1).

"Christ also SUFFERED FOR US, leaving us an example ['yet learned He OBEDIENCE by the things which HE SUFFERED' Heb. 5:8], that ye should follow His steps [of SUFFERING]" (I Pet. 2:21).

Likewise, you will look in vain to find a Scripture that tells us Jesus suffered so that we will not need to suffer in some fabled terrorist hellhole of fire.

These reasons why Jesus DIED are all in according with the very purpose for which the Father commissioned Jesus TO DIE:

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father SENT THE SON [commissioned Him] TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14).

Only blasphemers insist that Jesus will UTTERLY FAIL at the very job His Father commissioned Him to do. And that He will NOT INDEED, be the "SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD," but possibly only a tiny fraction of it. Rather than the Father seeking out THE ONE LOST SHEEP AND SAVING IT, heretics rather suggest that the Father saves the ONE SHEEP and LOOSES THE NINETY AND NINE TO HELL AND SATAN!!!

Hence,:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we TRUST in the Living God, Who is THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially [do you read the word 'EXCLUSIVELY' there?], SPECIALLY of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10).

You don't really have a God that you "TRUST IN" Who will be "THE SAVIOUR OF A-L-L MEN," do you? No, of course you don't, or you wouldn't teach the unscriptural heresy that you do.

May God grant you eyes to see, ears to ear, and a compassionate heart for all mankind.

Sincerely,

Ray

Well, if it was a tactic to control the population... it hasn't been working for centuries...

reply to post by Freenrgy2


I call having a choice on whether I reply to you or not my "free will". Perhaps God destined it at the dawn of time - thats his business - but that is not needed for me as part of my decision making process. If your not defending your own actions, it sounds like a largely purposeless position.

So if you believe you have a choice on whether or not you engage in premartial sex (which you agree is wrong?), Then how was your point about free will even relevant?


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A final note on the actual topic:


I think the Bible is quite clear that sex is supposed to be a Holy act between a man and wife. People have trivialized it to the point of slaughtering billions of unborn children just to satisfy our desires as a sex crazed culture. That is a good example why it was meant to be special and set aside...

reply to post by andre18


Andre18..... abortion does make everyone's face 'turn red' as it is murder.
The taking of any life is murder and so where is the line drawn ?
If a woman decides to have her unborn child killed because she can't keep her pants on and be responsible with using condoms and the pill, then is it right she murders her own child, as it is murder.

I would think the law is an ass, because if it is illegal to go and gun down some mafia boss who is evil, because it's murder, and then allows a mother to have her own child killed, well there seems something very wrong here indeed.

Of course if we make it legal to also go out and have a 'free for all' by taking revenge on killers, and other evil people, then we could see society run amock and return to barbarous days... with people fighting and killing eahc other and all being just 'normal'.

Sure we can't legalise revenge murders, and it's all wrong, as we have no right to take a life, or esle we wouldn't have such laws to enforce this law.
So why make the most innocent be killed by their own mother, and doctors who have signed the 'hypocratic oath' to protect and save life, be those who carry out the 'executions'....?

Even religious prophecies in many religious books talk of a time when mothers will kill their own children and speaks of a 'sacrifice' to the anti-christ...

The Bible indeed has many quotes on 'fornication' etc, as it does damage the person's character and mind in more ways than can be seen on the surface. I also am an expert on the occult and black magick....i do not practice the black arts but have researched all theology and occultic teachings to see what is going on, and sex is also considered of great importance in the occult.

In Black magick, it is used for energy, and to release a power used in ritual magick, aswell as perversions and sexual activity being a source of pleasure for demons who will feed off such evils and so grant a ritual magician his bidding through their pact.

Also some magicians claim that being virginal is important to retain one's innocence and purity in making magick work best, and claim the power of this 'life force' is retained and gives a virgin much imagination in creativity and also in powers. In black magick also the sacrifice of a child or virgin is one which releases the most energy as they are pure and so this is also to do with one being pure and virtuous by not having had sex.

It is also another reason many black magicians and occultist have admitted to working in abortion clinics as they claim to recite spells during abortions as they wish to utilise the killings of the innocent for their black magick rituals.
The amount of bloodshed regarding unborn children is staggeringly disgraceful which made me almost vomit when hearing the statistics.

Black magicians will be rubbing their hands to know such a evil is occuring in this world today, aswell as all the illicit perverse sexual energy released which demons can feed on and magicians can use and direct power from in their black magick rituals.

If you believe me to be lying, please so some reserach.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
What? Did I call anyone juvenille? Did I practically slander someone by putting words into their mouth? I simple reiterated my belief.

I'm sorry but, yes. You were aggressive, rude, and condescending. It takes a lot of guts for me to call another Christian out on their behavior and it is only done after much hesitation on my part. But that is the vibe that was coming from you. Your comments speak for themselves. I'm not worried about it, though. I'm a big girl.

Making a choice is not free will. I'm sure you read that in the link I provided.

If you say so, I guess. Essentially what you are implying is, "Having options decided by choice is not free due to causes." We will have to agree to disagree on that.

And I will ignore the rest of this 'free will' debate and take it onto the thread you just created. I do appreciate you making it.

NOPE.

NOPE.

Awesome debate skills.

No, scripture the way it is truly meant to be read and understood. Nothing there is unsupported by scripture.

Alrighty then. So when we quote scripture it is something that was 'spliced together by the church' or 'a faulty translation/interpretation.' But when you quote Scripture it is the infallible Word of God. Okily Dokily then.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I thought this thread was about premarital sex, the only reason I could imagine anyone making a big issue out of their lack of free will would be as an excuse.

That's the way it came across to me, too. The very, very in depth debate of free will vs. predestination really has nothing to do with this topic so if someone brings it up in this thread and makes such an issue out of it, it is only natural to assume they did it because:

1) They wanted to use it as an attempt to justify the sin [example: It's not my fault I'm sleeping around. God has it set up via causes and I have no free will].

2) That member has a passion for the topic and wanted to squeeze the debate into the thread any way possible in order to talk about something they feel strongly about.



Ok, off to the other thread.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I'm sorry but, yes. You were aggressive, rude, and condescending. It takes a lot of guts for me to call another Christian out on their behavior and it is only done after much hesitation on my part. But that is the vibe that was coming from you. Your comments speak for themselves. I'm not worried about it, though. I'm a big girl.

Mods. I ask that you review all of my posts in this thread and tell me whether or not I was rude to said poster. I've gone back and re-read everything I wrote and can't see where I was blatantly rude. The only terminology I can see that is remotely close is insinuating whammy was "puffed up." The rest of my posts were trying to reiterate my point and defend myself from blatant lies and slanderous remarks as to my beliefs.

Alrighty then. So when we quote scripture it is something that was 'spliced together by the church' or 'a faulty translation/interpretation.' But when you quote Scripture it is the infallible Word of God. Okily Dokily then.

Wow. I never used the phrase 'spliced together by the church'. You don't like what I write, so you try to publically discredit me with blatant lies? I said that it was man who put together the Bible and that man has interpreted it. Some of it they got wrong...it is not what is meant in the original Greek and Hebrew.

What I will also say is that the individual's site that I reference has put in more time and effort than I have researching the original texts. I don't believe he is a prophet but a teacher of the Word. He's a retired roofer. But, Jesus was a carpenter, Simon a fisherman, Matthew a tax collector, Luke a physician.

That's the way it came across to me, too. The very, very in depth debate of free will vs. predestination really has nothing to do with this topic so if someone brings it up in this thread and makes such an issue out of it, it is only natural to assume they did it because:

1) They wanted to use it as an attempt to justify the sin [example: It's not my fault I'm sleeping around. God has it set up via causes and I have no free will].

2) That member has a passion for the topic and wanted to squeeze the debate into the thread any way possible in order to talk about something they feel strongly about.

If I find myself guilty about any of this it would be point #2. My only point in my post was taking exception with your comment that we chose out of our own free will to have pre-marital sex when there is no such thing. That is all.