Boeing formally offers F/A-18 for indian MMRCA

www.defense-aerospace.com...

ST. LOUIS --- The Boeing Company today delivered a detailed, 7,000-page proposal offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Indian Air Force as part of India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

"Our proposal team worked diligently to fully understand and meet the requirements set out by the Indian Ministry of Defense (MOD). We are offering India the best-value, most advanced and proven multirole combat fighter in production today," said Jim Albaugh, president and CEO, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems (IDS).

So boeing offering there `best` aircraft officially , now will lockmart `up the ante` with the F35? or stick to there offering of yet another F16 variant? - SAAB will enter the mix with the Gripen DEMO , launched yesterday,france will put up the rafale which will be offered with the thales RBE2 aesa set , typhoon with ceaser (aesa front end of captor) and of course the mig35 again with its own aesa set

but - have boeing shot themselves allready? the proposals had to be in over 6 weeks ago - and will theres be thrown out for being late?

Boeing already has a disadvantage in that their aircraft doesn't quite fit with the role that the IAF want. In effect, it's the opposite problem of Gripen. F-16I, MiG-35, and Eurofighter are all relatively light aircraft and reasonably compact. The Super Hornet is by far the largest of the offered aircraft, and the Gripen the smallest. The Gripen encroaches on the territory of the Tejas under development by HAL. The Super Hornet isn't quite as concrete a trespass on capabilities the IAF already has (provided by Su-30 MKI), but it's definitely approaching it. The idea here is that they need a medium-sized aircraft to fit between Tejas and the MKIs, and Super Hornet is a little too large for the current status quo, IMHO.

It could turn out, though.

good point actually - australia are buying the SH to go head to head with indonisia`s SU30`s - so , in all honesty the SH can be discounted on that ground allready, and really , the typhoon is close on that as well, and likely rafale , which leaves gripen , F16 and mig35. the indian`s do like there mirage though.

[edit on 24/4/08 by Harlequin]

Oh we love our mirages!

Trust me, if the French had offered the Mirage 2K9 instead of the Rafale, there would have been any competition in the first place.

The F-16 and the MiG 35 seem like frontrunners to me. Maybe the Gripen too.

reply to post by Daedalus3


Yeah, the French pulled the 2000-5 offer. I agree with you to large extent. IAF would probably be better served by purchasing a cheaper fighter like the MiG-29OVT or Grippen in sufficient numbers while they wait for their 5th gen a/c they are developing with Russia. The MiG-29OVT offers some benefits with commonality the other options don't have. Also, Russia is going to export anything the Indians can pay for with hard currency.
If you can't get a reasonable deal on them, I'd shift my attention to the Grippen. Then the F-16.
Then you have the Tejas LCA that they are going to want to purchase atleast a few of to encourage domestic industry. I believe they are going to want a few of the LCA for the naval force as well.

If they think they need something more capable in addition to the lighter fighters while the wait for the 5th gen a/c, then they might as well buy a few more Su-30's as opposed to introducing a new type like the SH, Rafale or Eurofighter. If Dassault is over the barrel and offers you a great deal on the Rafale just to get an initial export customer, I'd listen.


Just my two pennies...

The Typhoon would be very close capacity wise to a SU30mki....

I would go either for the Rafale, Mig35 or the Griphen.

Mig35 would be the most capable most likely.

Rafale between the Mig35 and the Griphen.

Griphen would be a nice cheap small aircraf.

reply to post by tomcat ha


Rafale would probably be more capable all around than the -35 (or -29OVT or whatever Mikoyan is calling it these days), but the price tag is much steeper. And the fact you have MiG-29's already in service helps ease transition and logistics issues.
I don't think they want to spend that much money on what is looking more and more like an interim type.

Originally posted by Harlequin
... now will lockmart `up the ante` with the F35? or stick to there offering of yet another F16 variant?

Actually, in July of 2007 Lockheed did offer the F-35 to India as well as offering them the F-16 Block 50.

I'm not sure what became of that offering (Daedalus3 or Stealth Spy may know) but India is really looking to enhance their aerospace industry and their best deal scenario is one in which they are allowed to build the aircraft under contract.

The Russians are more agreeable to this sort of thing - there is absolutely no way the US would let the assembly of the F-35 take place outside of the US.

I would guess that at some time the IAF will be interested in taking Lockheed up on their deal.

reply to post by intelgurl


I remember talk, but didn't remember a formal offer. I had assumed we decided not to export the technology to India. Thank you again for the tidbits.

[edit on 25-4-2008 by _Del_]

The winner of this competition will be the one that offers the best industrial offsets to the Indians regardless of fit.

The Rafale is out unless the French government makes it so cheap they cannot refuse.

Offsets. Its all about offsets. Im also thinking any offering without AESA is out too.

Originally posted by _Del_
I remember talk, but didn't remember a formal offer. I had assumed we decided not to export the technology to India. Thank you again for the tidbits.

The actual details of the offering were that if India bought the F-16IN then Lockheed would open the door to India on the F-35 when it becomes available. This was initially an F-16 Block 50-60 but in January of this year Lockheed attempted to further sweeten the deal with an advanced F-16 Block 70.
I recall seeing pictures of a presentation to India by Lockheed that had IAF insignia on models of the F-35, seems like those pics were posted here on ATS last summer maybe...

Originally posted by FredT
Offsets. Its all about offsets. Im also thinking any offering without AESA is out too.

The Block 70 F-16 being offered as of January has AN/APG-80 AESA on it, the Super Hornet being offered has the APG-79 AESA on it.

We are offering India the best-value, most advanced and proven multirole combat fighter in production today," said Jim Albaugh

I wonder could he say this with a straight face....


I also wonder will Boeing protest when they lose?



For a high-low mix, the Gripen would be ideal... but due to politics, I feel it is more likely to go to the MiG.

The MiG-35 is my personal expectation to win the MMRCA. Firstly, the MiG-35 was specifically designed to complement the heavier Su-30 Flankers. It would make sense, with a Flanker fleet, to go immediately for the intended counterpart. Second, the Indians are already familiar with Russian technology, and, more importantly, already manufacture some of it for the Su-30's. The infrastructure for transition from Russian-provided to Indian-manufactured aircraft, and this is exactly what the Indians want. Third, there won't be any purchases of accompanying technology (as there might be with, say, an F-16 purchase or a Eurofighter purchase) such as missiles, these things are already present due to previous Russian deals.

The F-18, IMHO, is probably the least desirable entry into the MMRCA. It is simply not going to fit the Medium role in the way that an F-16 or Rafale can. It was made for the US Navy, which doesn't currently have the luxury of a designated heavy and light choice (such as the USAF has with the F-15 and F-16, and will have with the F-22 and F-35). It currently relies on one airframe to fulfill a medium-heavy role (I don't personally consider the distinction between the Legacy Hornet and Super Hornet sufficient to be the working medium-heavy relationship), which means that its specifications would have to be at the very top end of those intended for medium-class aircraft. And, with a bit of research, we find that this is true and that the Super Hornet is easily the largest and heaviest aircraft in the competition. This means that it is not quite appropriate for the role in question, and just starts to encroach on the territory of the Su-30 MKI's run by the IAF. Benefits-wise, I just don't see the United States giving anything new and revolutionary to the Indians through technology transfer as, although the Super Hornet has some neat stuff, it isn't like it has a "win button" on it. So, no, I don't expect the Super Bug to pull it off.

That's all the ranting I have time for now.

Any word on the rumor that Robert Gates promised that a 60+ F-18 order would come with a free supercarrier (Kitty Hawk)?

That is a package that would sweeten the deal considerably

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Boeing already has a disadvantage in that their aircraft doesn't quite fit with the role that the IAF want. In effect, it's the opposite problem of Gripen. F-16I, MiG-35, and Eurofighter are all relatively light aircraft and reasonably compact. The Super Hornet is by far the largest of the offered aircraft, and the Gripen the smallest. The Gripen encroaches on the territory of the Tejas under development by HAL. The Super Hornet isn't quite as concrete a trespass on capabilities the IAF already has (provided by Su-30 MKI), but it's definitely approaching it. The idea here is that they need a medium-sized aircraft to fit between Tejas and the MKIs, and Super Hornet is a little too large for the current status quo, IMHO.

It could turn out, though.

Sorry, I have to disagree some of your point.

MRCA stand for multi-role-combat-aircraft. So India didn't want a pure supiority fighter but a fighter with powerful anti-ground capability. So both Eurofighter and F-18E/F are the optimized choise, not only capability they have but also profit their LCA project by F414 or EJ200 refitted on perhaps.

Considering what's MRCA stand for and India has already got Su-30MKI which possess of air-domination, whereas SHE's attack-ground capability is a little bit better than Eurofighter, so undoubted, SH should be a good option.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Oh we love our mirages!

Trust me, if the French had offered the Mirage 2K9 instead of the Rafale, there would have been any competition in the first place.

The F-16 and the MiG 35 seem like frontrunners to me. Maybe the Gripen too.

I knew you were kiding us
France perfer Mirage 4000 aussi, if they provide Mirage 2000 despite any suffix number even to be three-figured, India will ask Mirage 4000 productline to be reopened. So glade to see such beautiful fighter will entry service!

reply to post by intelgurl


India have allways stipulated 50% offsets and local production - so as Fred said , (basically) the F35 won`t happen as they won`t let it be built anywhere but in the US

reply to post by emile


except the competition is the MMRCA - Medium Multi Role Combat Aircratf

www.defenseindustrydaily.com...

as an aside:

www.defensenews.com...

it seems they extened the deadline in feb to the end of april so boeing got the bid in , in time.

i really think cost will be a factor here - typhoon , rafale and SH are all expensive - and 126 airframes for $10bil USD i think won`t happen - look at the AUS deal for boeing prices , there getting 24 for $3bilUSD

so i think its down to MiG-35,Gripen and F16 - in taht order , with France desperate to sell anyone the rafale so might make a loss just to make a big sale (and play on indian love of mirage)

[edit on 26/4/08 by Harlequin]

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by intelgurl

 

India have allways stipulated 50% offsets and local production - so as Fred said , (basically) the F35 won`t happen as they won`t let it be built anywhere but in the US

India's stipulation of local production is met with the potential F-16 purchase, while it is believed that the F-35 is enticement enough without local production. That would give India the boost they are looking for in their aerospace industry in the form of a 4.something gen F-16 plus the added incentive of getting a real 5th Gen fighter without paying development costs.

All that considered, Russia may still have the best financial deal for India.

so the offer is `F16 now built over there and F35 later` - that won`t cut it - they want tech transfer - a dangled F35 but not built there with F16 +aesa won`t be enough ; all the aircraft have aesa and honestly offer the same if not better capabilities

look at the commotion israel have made when they clearly stated they would tear apart the F35`s as much as they wanted and wholesale replace and/or reverse engineer as much as they want and add there own kit; with the US government saying `no` to them i can`t see the indisns getting what thry want - that and they have long memeories regarding the ;last parts supply for us aircratf problems