An Experiment for Brave Christians

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Getting desperate?
We are after all talking about how you say if we read "The God Delusion" with an open mind blah blah blah. Which is of course mirrors the Christian's statement we should read their bible with a open mind and blah blah blah blah.
Pointing out how the statements mirror each other is hardly trollery. But by all means you feel your right report me and see what the mods say.

[edit on 2-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


this is just about both sides getting a better understanding of each other

What's there to understand, i believe in a God and you don't.

Jesus Christ, live and let live bro.

edit: and go to sleep what are you doing up at 3:00 am?

[edit on 2-4-2008 by thehumbleone]

Some people work the night shift as I do..... and some people stay up to 3:00am as I do so he is probably just living his life in his own time scedule humble one..... nothing wrong with that..

But madness I have a question, and btw guys lets try and lose the cocky tones in here when replying...

Madness the book is called.

" The God delusion "

you see this title itself is unsincere.. The author who (not knowing) if God is real has already made up his mind that he will not give God a chance.. So I ask why should someone read a baised book whos author is already coming from a bias point of view????

And to the guy who said that God reveals it to babes....

It's because childlike people humble themselves out to listen and know how to follow the leader.... and you will notice most people in the NT or alot of them were babes and humble...

anyways God bless you souls, I'm out....

peace.

No Takers So Far?

Can't say I'm surprised.

Dear heaven, what if the arguments actually made sense? What if one were forced to consider that one had been living a wicked lie for years and years -- possibly all one's life -- and had even taught it to one's children?

Imagine having to struggle with the concept of learning to be a good person without the overhanging threat of eternal punishment as an incentive.

Imagine having to rebuild one's world-view from empirical observation and reflection, without having it all set out for you in a book.

Imagine having to re-learn the meaning of life, and discovering that you as an individual do not figure in it.

Actually, like most atheists, I can imagine it, because I went through all of it. And in doing so, I learned that the process is very hard even on a young, confident, freethinking mind. In my opinion, the scripture-bound just wouldn't be up to it.

What a lot of atheists don't understand is that faith does not come just from the bible or from what we are told as children.
Our faith comes from the living relationship we have with God.
When you ask Jesus into your life, and he does. There is no doubt in your mind that he is real. Thats what Christianity is all about, a relationship with God.

The problem being, as atheists don't believe in God, they will never understand where we are coming from.
That also is the reason you have no takers, we know that God is real and no book will ever convince us otherwise.

I hope you now have a little more insight into Christianity and why we can never see eye to eye.
The relationship side of things does not exist on your side of the debate.

Cheers
John.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

secondly, if you read a book of equivalent atheist merit, sure. i'd recommend either the god delusion, god is not great, or breaking the spell.
...however, it's going to be a bit tough to get my hands on a copy of it over here.

As I told you several months ago, I'll buy it and I'll ship it to you if you'll read it. And sure, in return I'd be more than happy to read a book of your choosing, be it The God Delusion, God is Not Great, Breaking The Spell or some other book. I think our takes on the books might make for some interesting commentary here on ATS, as well.

The book does not rely on any single argument, either. It goes into documentary evidence, historical evidence, scientific evidence, psychological evidence, archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophetic evidence, etc. It's not a one trick pony We can continue this discussion via U2U if you're genuinely interested, to work out the details.

As to the thread being off topic, I would have to disagree. It certainly hasn't been going in the direction you'd like it to go, but the discussion has been revolving around the assumptions and the topic you opened with, at least in my opinion. If you disagree, feel free to submit an alert on the thread or a complaint for all of the staff to review. Just remember, on topic does not mean in the direction the original poster wanted the discussion to go, but rather on the subject originally asserted by the original poster.

however, if the argument in the book draws from the bible in any other way than saying "historical evidence says x, so does bible" i'm going to be a bit let down by the circular logic. ...also, if it uses the "fulfilled prophecies" argument, which is also a circular argument, i'll be very sad that you made me read it.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I'll guess I need to read this book to address the issues it brings up. I'll promise to read it as soon as I finish the current book, Twilight in the Desert. I'm sure there's some interesting things to talk about, but you'll have to give me some time to get around to it.

reply to post by jon1


eh...i tried the whole asking jesus into my life thing several times and i was dead serious about it. there was even one time when it was on top of a hill in a thunderstorm, which i found to be quite dramatic. but there was nothing, i asked with all my heart, mind, and what i thought was my soul for god to enter my life...and nadda, zip, el zilcho

That also is the reason you have no takers, we know that God is real and no book will ever convince us otherwise.

with statements like this, why are the atheists labeled as the arrogant ones?

and honestly, this isn't about convincing. i just want to see your responses to the arguments presented in the book.

reply to post by thehumbleone


well, there's a lot more to it than you believing and me not believing. this is getting to the question of why
why do you believe?
why don't i?

and i've just been having trouble readjusting from spring break time... get to sleep at 5am, wake up at 3pm

reply to post by JesusisTruth


...the title isn't insincere, it's the argument the book is making.
the bible isn't called the "possibly holy bible" because that's not the position they're taking.

double standards....

I will quote the original poster of this thread from another thread where someone made a book recommendation:

can you just highlight the main arguments of the book here since not everyone has the time to read it?

If the book is so great, give us a quickie outline of it. Instead of asking me to go spend money on a book that will insult my beliefs, show me one good reason to even consider reading it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by jon1

 

eh...i tried the whole asking jesus into my life thing several times and i was dead serious about it. there was even one time when it was on top of a hill in a thunderstorm, which i found to be quite dramatic. but there was nothing, i asked with all my heart, mind, and what i thought was my soul for god to enter my life...and nadda, zip, el zilcho

That also is the reason you have no takers, we know that God is real and no book will ever convince us otherwise.

with statements like this, why are the atheists labeled as the arrogant ones?

and honestly, this isn't about convincing. i just want to see your responses to the arguments presented in the book.

My statement that you have quoted is perfectly true. I KNOW God exists, what more can i say.
I would love to explain to you why the book is a load of nonsense as i have heard it all before but, whatever i say will not be believed and you and a few others will have a field day with what i have to say.
Plus it would require to much of my time that i would rather put to something more productive.

Sorry MIMS, no takers here.

reply to post by zombiemann


wow, assumptions much?
granted, i tend to find that theists see any challenge to their ideas as an "insult"

i'm actually asking people to read the book, not saying that it proves anything. i just want to see your reaction, not argue the point of the book. i want to se your responses to specific passages.

and i only asked because i couldn't find a wiki entry for the book

however, there is one for dawkins' book
en.wikipedia.org...

there's a synopsis.

oh..and you wouldn't have to spend a dime, they're sure to have a copy of the book at your local library.

[edit on 4/3/08 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by jon1
My statement that you have quoted is perfectly true. I KNOW God exists, what more can i say.

it's impossible to know the answer to this question. we are all agnostics till death, the only difference is that some claim to know as a justification for their beliefs.

there is no knowing without evidence, there is no evidence that you have.

I would love to explain to you why the book is a load of nonsense as i have heard it all before but, whatever i say will not be believed and you and a few others will have a field day with what i have to say.

see? more assumptions. i'm really doing this just to see the responses and gain a better insight into how those working from a religious standpoint look at the arguments. i can't really do that on my own, so i was hoping that people

Plus it would require to much of my time that i would rather put to something more productive.

Sorry MIMS, no takers here.

sad, i was hoping that sharing your view on the world with a lowly godless heathen like me would be productive.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

it's impossible to know the answer to this question. we are all agnostics till death, the only difference is that some claim to know as a justification for their beliefs.

there is no knowing without evidence, there is no evidence that you have.

Come on MIMS, you know me and the things that i have claimed on these forums.
For me i have all the proof i need but once again it is a personal experience and that has no validation here.
I tell you something though, i would love to meet you face to face and then i would tell you everything.
If you ever win the lottery send me a ticket.

see? more assumptions. i'm really doing this just to see the responses and gain a better insight into how those working from a religious standpoint look at the arguments. i can't really do that on my own, so i was hoping that people

The problem with the answers you will get are that they are based on the supernatural where as you only see things through logic and science.
You won't have a clue what i am talking about or even if you did you would think that i am a few pence short of a pound.
Won't work...

Originally posted by jon1
What a lot of atheists don't understand is that faith does not come just from the bible or from what we are told as children.
Cheers
John.

Really? It may not be where it comes from but it is most def. one of the places that it starts. Nothing like have an unbiased teaching lesson from ones parents and others to skew the view of the world.

No?

Just like when I was a child and was taught that Columbus discovered America. Years later, come to find out that was not exactly the truth.

I'll stick to raising my kids with an open mind and options. Not fabrications and fables.

reply to post by bobafett1972

I'll stick to raising my kids with an open mind and options. Not fabrications and fables.

Would an open mind mean you'd allow them to pick a theistic belief system?
Or is that part of the fabrications and fables part?
If so your contradict yourself and will not raise them with anything like an open mind and options.
You will raise them to be atheists, pure and simple. And that is your right but don't pretend to be righteous in doing so OR pretend that your doing anything but.

But of course if the above doesn't apply to you then cheers.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Your words, not mine.

Rigtheous? Nah.

I am a contradiction. I admit it.

Thought I may feel something is fabricated and a fable does not mean I do not respect it. Are my kids raised in a christian household? No. But when they have questions, I answer them openly and unbiased. Am I wrong? Just as wrong as my parents were to raise me they way that they did. Which to me translates to no; just doing the best we can with the tools provided.

It will most likely come out all wrong but oh well:

My problems with any organized religion is simply that they do not think and they feel that anyone making remarks that do not agree with theirs makes them anti-christian. I am not anti anything. It is the gospel and it is beyond reproach. Yeah, okay.

It is after, just a book. And there are so many books but not enough time.
I'll stick to being agnostic. I may not have had a choice in being a Christian but I do not hold that against anyone.

My orginal comment was that fact that faith just does not appear out of thin air if one was never exposed to it in the first place.

~B

reply to post by bobafett1972


This conversation made me think of a great quote from "Rant: A oral biography of Buster Casey" by Chuck Psomething-I-can't-spell but it was the guy who wrote "Fight Club".

Each holiday tradition acts as an exercise in cognitive development, a greater challenge for the child. Despite the fact most parents don't recognize this function, they still practice the exercise.

Rant also saw how resolving the illusions is crucial to how the child uses new skills.
A who is never coached with Santa Claus may never develop an ability to imagine. To him, nothing exists except the literal and the tangible.

A child who is disillusioned abruptly by his peers or siblings, being ridiculed for his faith and imagination, may choose never to believe in anything never to believe in anything---tangible or intangible--- again. To never trust or wonder.

But a child who relinquishes the illusions of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Faery, that child may recognize the strength of his own imagination and faith. He will embrace the ability to create his own reality. That child becomes his own authority. He determines the nature of his world. His own vision. And by doing so, by the power of his example, he determines the reality of the other two types: those who can't imagine and those who can't trust.

But I fail to see your point as a answer to my statement.

You are either going to raise them to keep an open mind.
Or you are going to raise them to follow your beliefs.
Seems to me your trying to skirt the fact that your not going to raise them with your beliefs and calling it open minded and "with options". When it is anything but.
Might as well slap a applesauce label on vinegar and insist its applesauce.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


See, now that is why I started with, it will probably come out wrong.
Come over for some coffee and we'll discuss it at length...
~~~

Nothing you said, no offense, makes any sense to me. In your first comment to me, you said the kids will grow up to be atheists. How so? I am not an atheist. I am not preaching that there is no God or Higher being.

I'll just go back to reading and not posting. It has nothing to do with you, not that you should care. Something is always lost in the translation. The inflection is gone and sarcasm comes off all wrong.

but hey, thanks for the Chuck Palanuik quote. He is an excellent writer.

Off topic, off topic, off topic. Are there any more off topics here?

And you aren't trying to sway anyone away from religion? hmmm, not what I'm getting from this thread.