Taxi to the Darkside : APPALLING

reply to post by spyder207

I tire of all the constant complaining about our military by those that are not, have not and will not serve. Focus your attention on the disease not the symptoms.

Did you even bother to watch the video, or are you just another ignorant propagandist who has come in here to stink up this thread with rhetoric trying to derail the discussion?

The ones who are "complaining" about the injustice, are the troops who carried out the orders!

EDIT to add: Your comment reeks of ignorance. You have no idea who here has served, has not served, or would be willing to serve. My brother is in Baghdad at this very moment, as if that was really any of your business.



[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by spyder207

 

The ones who are "complaining" about the injustice, are the troops who carried out the orders!
[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

First off, lay off the whole "you are ignorant" charade - especially to someone who is trying to give your narrow vision of reality some appropriate perspective. It has become a tradition here at ATS to call everyone ignorant if they don't see your point or agree with you. You've been pulled into the trend - probably unconscious of the whole communal process, which is not surprising, considering. It makes one look like a silly fool. On that note, I figure you'll do it in the future.

Ok, so why does it matter if the troops who did the torturing are now complaining about it?

Why, they don't like the fact that to attempt to extract important information, they had to torture someone?

Who in their right mind would? Well, there are plenty of people.

In the end, they are the ones that did it. You can't just blame it on the leadership like you seem to be doing.

Sure, they feel bad. Maybe they feel bad because they didn't want to do it in the first place, but gave in. Maybe they feel guilty about it and want to place blame on the leadership so that the whole world feels sorry for the poor poor soldier who tortures people. They feel like they screwed up so much that they now have to tell the whole world as to to shift the blame from their own hands to that of the leadership.

"The voices told me to do it" Sure... sure, they did. Great excuse.

Torture and war are ageless. This is not a case of "Look what we are turning into," but a case of, "Look at what we have always been." We are in an age of media, smuggled video evidence and lack of testicular fortitude juxtaposed with anti-US propaganda and conspiracy; all of this nasty stuff is being brought to the public. You can concentrate on the US, but it is entirely in vein. You can bring a 10,000 year old practice to the public, but it's not going to change anything. It's always going to be done as long as there is war.

DC-"If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of a person's child, there's no law that can sop that? That's what you wrote in the August 2002 memo"

JY-"I think it depends on why the president thinks he needs to do that"

So, by Yoo's logic it's OK as long as the President thinks he needs to do that.
You have got to be kidding me. This is truly appalling.

Is that the most abstract form of torture he could come up with to get an illogical emotional reaction out of his audience?

I wonder if the President would authorize the creation of a tornado? Or maybe using zombies to kill a village. Well, if that's what the god damn commander in chief thinks needs to be done then he will authorize it, and someone on the end of the chain of command will do it - and then some of the mentally disturbed will whine about carrying it out to gain some sympathy from the public so they don't feel as bad about der wittle selves because they didn't have the fortitude to say, "# this #."

You can place your blame on whoever the hell you want in that chain of command, but there is only one person there that "crushed the testicles," for whatever reason.

You know, this is typical of the whole conspiracy mentality: "I'm the victim." It is apparent that you identify with the role of torturer as victim here and not torturee with your skewed worldview.

EDIT to add: Your comment reeks of ignorance. You have no idea who here has served, has not served, or would be willing to serve. My brother is in Baghdad at this very moment, as if that was really any of your business.

Wow. I guess that makes you a war vet.

So hypothetically speaking, if your BROTHER IN BAGHDAD came home and told you that he tortured a few prisoners until they died, what would you say?

"Oh, you poor baby. You poor poor victim of the military! How dare they make you do such horrible things! You are the victim here, and they are the evil evil monsters!"

or

"WHAT THE # WERE YOU THINKING YOU IDIOT! YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO GO WITH YOUR CONVICTIONS?"

You probably wouldn't do either because they are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Funny enough, the 1st appears to be your stance as it relates to people whom you do not know.

I've got a better one. Play this honestly now.

Who do you like better? the POW or your brother? Choose only one.

Assume your brother was just killed by a rebel assault, or maybe just hit by a random RPG attack. Assume that foreknowledge of this attack could have been coerced out of a POW (has a wife and 4 children) by sticking needles in his eyes and breaking both of his knee caps. Maybe they found the guys 10 year old son and crushed his testicles. The guy that was supposed to do it stood up to his convictions and said he wouldn't do it, so it took 10 minutes to get another guy in there that would. By the time the information was retrieved from the subject, your brother and his entire squad was dead. Disintigrated. You won't be hearing from him again, much less seeing him. Nor will any of the people who knew the rest of troops in his squad. If only the first guy had the gumption, your brother and his entire squad would be safe.

Sgt. Dead B. Dirt - Wife and 3 children
Cpl. Blood N. Bones - Girlfriend who he was engaged to
Cpl. Thanks 4. Nothing - Wife and 2 sons
LCpl. Your A. BadBrother - You know
PFC. Damn U. Jerk - Girlfriend and two step children
PVT. Go 2. Hell - Nobody
PVT. You R. Next - Girlfriend
PVT. Coming 4. You - Newlywed wife.

Remember, you have to play it honestly. You can't say "Oh no, that wouldn't happen," as it's not part of the game. Let's see if you can even manage that.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
EDIT to add: Your comment reeks of ignorance. You have no idea who here has served, has not served, or would be willing to serve. My brother is in Baghdad at this very moment, as if that was really any of your business.

[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

Ignorance? And you feel that your brother being in Baghdad covers you? Where is your contribution besides stirring up crap here on the internet?

BTW I can tell who here has served; typically you can tell when you read their posts, reading yours quickly illustrated my point.

Enjoy your freedom while it lasts and hope that someone will follow the right orders when the time comes to continue protecting that freedom for you since you will be here, too busy complaining on the internet about them.

Originally posted by jackinthebox

Did you even bother to watch the video, or are you just another ignorant propagandist who has come in here to stink up this thread with rhetoric trying to derail the discussion?

The ones who are "complaining" about the injustice, are the troops who carried out the orders!


[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

The ones complaining about it, lets see, I count you and the ex soldiers who were called back to discuss their courtmarshall. I don't remember anyone complaining when they came home. They only speak out now because they have been exposed and like someone else feel they should blame everyone else for their problems.

People can be arrested, held, tortured, and executed without so much as a trial, and the information incriminating those responsible can be systematically erased.

The administrators of this country are criminals, and we're living in the dystopian future.

I made a thread about it some time ago:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Got some upset comment there...hehe...
Still consider myself to be right though.
Prove the oppsite.

This was a totally out of control situation that was fueled by the ignorance of much of top leadership and the desire of success no matter what it would take for middle leadership. A very inhuman situation that though brought to light doesn’t lessen just how wrong it was.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by Xtrozero]

I find it funny that people support severe forms of torture when its been proven time and time again that the information that is extracted is often not reliable. the issue being ofcourse, is that there is a 50/50 chance that the person is giving you what you want to hear, out of fear and desperation for the torture to stop, but infact not hold any reliable information to give you, so made fabrications in the process.

A good cop bad cop situation works much better, aswell as deal offering.

I just think maybe its a time we grow up as a species, and set a good example for the others in the world by saying "hey, yeah, okay we've done this for centuries, but there are better ways, that are more civil and more mature."

Those that support any form of torture, are supporting immature infantile responses to resistance. You know, like when a older brother punches, hurts, torments, whatever a younger brother to get what he wants. Adolescent immaturity.

Google Video Link

I honestly don't see how anyone can defend what has happened here. Did everyone watch the entire 1 hour and 18 minutes of the documentary?

The Pakistani who turned in Daliwar was later arrested by the US forces as one who actually rocketed the US base and he was rounding up innocent people and then turning them in for a bounty to take the blame off of him! Also, Daliwar's 3 passengers were sent on to Guantanamo for over a year when it was known they were innocent. They were obviously the ones who did not rocket the US base.

The chain of command is what makes the military work in the manner it does. If you don't think these orders came from the top, then there is something wrong with the chain of command. Cheney visited Bagram several times, he had to know these techniques were being used.

What I find even more disturbing is that we may have invaded Iraq because of an interrogation of an "Al Queda higher up" who was probably tortured in to saying Al Queda was in Iraq. If someone was waterboarding, kneeing you, forcing you to stay up for 20 hours a day, wouldn't you tell them what they want to hear in order to make them stop?

Colin Powell, again in the documentary, said that intelligence report he relayed to the public was the most embarrassing day of his life.

Edit to add: I'm sure I will be labeled as one who hasn't served, which is true. I am truly grateful to our soldiers who protect our freedom and die for that freedom on a daily basis.

Is it necessary to knee someone who was innocent enough times until the muscles in their legs were "pulpified" for freedom?

[edit on 3-16-2008 by nyarlathotep]

reply to post by Mr. Ree

First off, lay off the whole "you are ignorant" charade - especially to someone who is trying to give your narrow vision of reality some appropriate perspective.

You don't like what I write? Put me on the ignore list. Have a complaint? Tell a mod. Want to defend ignorance? Do it somewhere else.

In the end, they are the ones that did it. You can't just blame it on the leadership like you seem to be doing

Did you bother to watch the movie? Or are you just here to stink up this thread with ignorance as well?

You know, this is typical of the whole conspiracy mentality...

Nice sweeping generalization there. Way to show your debate skills champ.

Wow. I guess that makes you a war vet.

The details of my service cannot be discussed.

So hypothetically speaking, if your BROTHER IN BAGHDAD came home and told you that he tortured a few prisoners until they died, what would you say?

I didn't say anything, because I know the deal.

Who do you like better?

It's not about who to like better, it's about being better.

Assume that foreknowledge of this attack could have been coerced out of a POW (has a wife and 4 children) by sticking needles in his eyes and breaking both of his knee caps.

You are assuming that accurate information can be extracted through torture.

If only the first guy had the gumption, your brother and his entire squad would be safe.

Again, an unsubstantiated assumption. Successful interrogation is based on mental skill, not physical force. If you aren't smart enough to extract accurate information without the use of force, you have no business carrying out an interrogation.

reply to post by spyder207

They only speak out now because they have been exposed and like someone else feel they should blame everyone else for their problems.

If that is your opinion then obviously you have no first-hand knowledge or experience with this subject.

EDIT to add: And I love how you try to make it look like these former soldiers are the bad guys for telling the truth. I guess torturing people is okay, unless you talk about it with the media.

[edit on 3/17/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by spyder207

Ignorance? And you feel that your brother being in Baghdad covers you? Where is your contribution besides stirring up crap here on the internet?

I mention my brother, to illustrate that I have direct concern regarding this subject, at this very moment. My own contributions are irrelevant and will not be discussed.

As far as my activity here, keep in mind that I did not make this video.

BTW I can tell who here has served; typically you can tell when you read their posts, reading yours quickly illustrated my point.

Are you claiming super-powers now, or just making the ignorant presumption that if one is against torture then they have never served?

reply to post by spyder207


We should be most critical of our actions and our own military infractions above all others. We are the superpower who had voluntarily leaped into this war headfirst. We are absolutely responsible for this whole fiasco in the first place. Being the aggressor, we must be very critical of every action we make as a country and of our own countrymen. Because there is a war going on doesn't mean "anything" goes and we can impose our will on anyone we see fit, especially with zero evidence backing such claims. This does not include siding with our countrymen when they are in the wrong. Last time I checked bad and good, right or wrong isn't dictated by what country you were born in. Also, this isn't the first person to die in our internment camps, and more than likely not the last one. Siding with your country by proxy has to be one of the single most idiotic things a true "countryman" can do.

Little guy > bud?

This kind of reporting reminds me of the ALF videos i watched a few years back, but without pictures.

It doesn't take a genius to realise that the things reported on are just the tip of the iceberg.

Truly sickening.

Originally posted by spyder207
Ignorance? And you feel that your brother being in Baghdad covers you? Where is your contribution besides stirring up crap here on the internet?

BTW I can tell who here has served; typically you can tell when you read their posts, reading yours quickly illustrated my point.

Enjoy your freedom while it lasts and hope that someone will follow the right orders when the time comes to continue protecting that freedom for you since you will be here, too busy complaining on the internet about them.

You don't have to serve in any form of military to be a "patriot." Anybody, and I mean anybody who follows and abides the doctrine set before us by our forefathers is subtly, yet absolutely and ultimately "patriotic." You're confusing patriotism and nationalism.

Do you think the troops who are being thrown at Afghanistan and Iraq are preserving our freedoms here in the United States, or are they securing the freedoms of countries abroad? Perhaps securing and upholding profit shares between the few who are buying in on the Iraqi cash cow?

Your argument about biting one's tongue because they haven't served is weak and nil. A cop out to say the least. You don't know any one of our contributions to our fellow citizens or country. You're no one to make the call on who can speak out against what and why they're doing it. That's why we have the first amendment right that was instilled by past patriots, some who served and those who were harsh critics. That's what makes this country beautiful and stable.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]

reply to post by Mr. Ree


I found this poster that I think sums up your view on the subject.