FBI 'Deputizing' Businesses and granting them 'shoot to kill' rights!

reply to post by merryxmas


Perhaps instead of attempting to shield ourselves with our innocence, we should instead make an informed assault within the framework of the governing structure that is encroaching.

One of the best positions i have seen is frm J.S. Mill in 1869:

WHAT, then, is the rightful limit to the sovereignty of the individual over himself? Where does the authority of society begin? How much of human life should be assigned to individuality, and how much to society? 1
Each will receive its proper share, if each has that which more particularly concerns it. To individuality should belong the part of life in which it is chiefly the individual that is interested; to society, the part which chiefly interests society. 2
Though society is not founded on a contract, and though no good purpose is answered by inventing a contract in order to deduce social obligations from it, every one who receives the protection of society owes a return for the benefit, and the fact of living in society renders it indispensable that each should be bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards the rest. This conduct consists first, in not injuring the interests of one another; or rather certain interests, which, either by express legal provision or by tacit understanding, ought to be considered as rights; and secondly, in each person's bearing his share (to be fixed on some equitable principle) of the labours and sacrifices incurred for defending the society or its members from injury and molestation. These conditions society is justified in enforcing at all costs to those who endeavour to withhold fulfilment. Nor is this all that society may do. The acts of an individual may be hurtful to others, or wanting in due consideration for their welfare, without going the length of violating any of their constituted rights. The offender may then be justly punished by opinion, though not by law. As soon as any part of a person's conduct affects prejudicially the interests of others, society has jurisdiction over it, and the question whether the general welfare will or will not be promoted by interfering with it, becomes open to discussion. But there is no room for entertaining any such question when a person's conduct affects the interests of no persons besides himself, or needs not affect them unless they like (all the persons concerned being of full age, and the ordinary amount of understanding). In all such cases there should be perfect freedom, legal and social, to do the action and stand the consequences.

Here is the link for the full text:www.bartleby.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.bartleby.com...

We can not both refuse to participate in and benefit without compensation to that republic we choose.

[edit on 8-2-2008 by kerontehe]

It sounds like a good idea to me.

Frankly I don't trust the site from which this story is taken, so their view of the program is immaterial.

The official site of the program describes a working relationship between those who are in businesses that maintain our nation's infrastructure and who are in a position to observe suspicious activity and the FBI.

www.infragard.net...

This is a large scale professional neighborhood watch.

If we are serious about protecting ourselves from terrorism, a problem that will never go away, we need this kind of interaction between law enforcement and the private sector.

There are few circumstances that I can imagine where abuse is not possible. Certainly, there is the potential for abuse in this program, but that is not sufficient cause to trash the program.

I like the idea and the more corporate citizens who are involved, the less the likelihood of abuse.

We are all in this together.

[edit on 2008/2/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I like the idea and the more corporate citizens who are involved, the less the likelihood of abuse.

[edit on 2008/2/8 by GradyPhilpott]

yes because the corporations and their employees are known for their morals and lack of greed

and because terrorists threats are about as likely as you getting hit by lightning-twice in the same day

unless of course you consider american citizens that have become homeless or unemployed and trying to survive a terrorist, in which case we will probably need "protection" from them



[edit on 8-2-2008 by cpdaman]

If you are truly an "innocent", how can this hurt you.

Getting shot hurts anyone.

The thing we need to consider is why this group is given such authority.

Why?

Seems to me if a Governments becomes (or plans to become) Tyrannical, and wants authority to kill the opposition, in this case the populace who stands in their way of total domination. The populace is who it would hurt is what it seems to me... BUT, thats only *if* our Government was to become so Tyrannical (9/11 anyone?!) to the point where they would *want* to throw the Country into a chaotic state of martial law, and move towards a new world order. Detaining the citizens so they cannot fight agaisnt this move for globalization (hell not even fight, but want to live as a free citizen), seems like a fair way to accomplish such a goal. Hell, if those deputized gun carrying "mofo's" have the right to "shoot to kill", I imagine they would use that privilage on those dissenters or those who resist such a state of chaos.

I mean, I don't want any of this to be real or true, but when you continue to see things like Telco Immunity Vote, certain aspects of the Patriot Act, the term "enemy combatants" applying to "anyone", it kind of makes you wonder why the focus is on controlling the public in a state of distress rather than fighting actual terrorists.
Unless of course there is no terrorist attack and what's being done is an "inside job" on the Governments behalf, and the terror inflicted upon our Country serves the will of that moving towards a global government, or if not that, "security" so they can have total and legal surveillance over their people under the guise of national security. These thoughts seems to support the idea that they are indeed, Tyrannical to some degree (lets hope for the lesser).

Didn't I see this in a movie somewhere?

Remember, Remember the 5th Of November!


V

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
Since I live in a constitutional republic not a democracy my rights are guaranteed even as a minority.
reluctantpawn

So minorities have never had their rights compromised by any government or corporate department? hummmmmm

Originally posted by reluctantpawn

Even if I do not avail myself of the system that doesn't mean that the system needs to be rendered moot. We have a government that was set up with checks and balances so that no one group or individual could gain control. We have laws and rights that should not be bypassed. According to the U.S. Constitution no man or corporation has any more rights than any other. Justice should be blind as portrayed. Corporate law enforcement is not therefore legal.
reluctantpawn

Problem with having checks and balances where the checker is following the same rules and moralities as the offender - there is no problems is there.

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
According to the U.S. Constitution no man or corporation has any more rights than any other.
reluctantpawn

As your president would say

Originally said by GW BUSH
“It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
Corporate law enforcement is not therefore legal.
reluctantpawn

They are not enforcing the law currently they are merely reporting it so perfect legal - once the rules change they will be able to enforce the law.

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
It is one thing to protect your vested interest. It is another to go out and look for potential problems. Since I am rather independent by this adjunct it would be O.K. for me to go out and shoot potential looters outside of my property or corporate entity merely for the sake of my future security.
respectfully
reluctantpawn

That is the law currently in some states and it could even be your car in a public place that you are feeling afraid and therefore shooting to kill is ok. .


Basically as long as you have enough of a recognisable pull to protect yourself you should be ok. Regardless off any crime you do or donot commit.
BUT if you are unfortunate you could be deemed guilty of many many charges included a threat to national security that no one is allowed to know about.

Originally posted by Quazga
I'm a member of InfraGuard. This is not as whacked out as the link might lead you to believe. This is about government by the people.

Of course I want law enforcement in the hands of the people. Otherwise, what else is there? Power hungry LEOs?

How about 23,682 members of Infragard.

I don't like this- the FBI can't do its job? Perhaps they should quit while their still behind.

Inner instinct tells me there is more to this Infragard & I don't trust this group. Supposed duties are to protect the infratructure... Of what the Government?

Wonder how many other 'weird' government related groups they are?

Infragard Code of Ethics (DECIPHERED USING BS DETECTOR 2.0 )

As an InfraGard member it is my responsibility to:

• Promote the protection and advancement of the critical infrastructure of the United States of America. (HELP BRING CITIZENRY UNDER CONTROL)

• Cooperate with others in the interchange of knowledge and ideas for mutual protection. (SPY ON YOUR NEIGHBOR AND SHARE WITH THE GOVERNMENT)

• Support the education of members and the general public in a diligent, loyal, honest manner, and not knowingly be a part of any illegal or improper activities. (HELP SPREAD PROPAGANDA)

• Serve in the interests of InfraGard and the general public in a diligent, loyal, and honest manner, and will not knowingly be a party to any illegal or improper activities. (SWEAR LOYALTY TO YOUR OVERLORDS)

• Maintain confidentiality, and prevent the use for competitive advantage at the expense of other members, of information obtained in the course of my involvement with InfraGard, which includes but is not limited to: (KEEP INFRAGARD SECRET FROM NON MEMBERS)

o Information concerning the business of a fellow member or company. (WE PROTECT "OUR OWN"

o Information identified as proprietary, confidential or sensitive. (YOU CAN KEEP A SECRET CANT YOU?)

• Abide by the National and Local Chapter InfraGard Bylaws. (LOCATIONS OF "CAMPS" WILL BE DIFFERENT STATE BY STATE, KNOW YOUR AREAS "RE-EDUCATION" CAMPS LAWS"

• Protect and respect the privacy rights, civil rights, and physical and intellectual property rights of others. (A LIST OF THE "OTHERS" WILL BE GIVEN TO YOU WHEN MARTIAL LAW IS ENACTED)

So, let me get this straight. There are people who actually believe that non-professional corporate mercenaries are needed to protect the nation's infrastructure? Why did we bother to allow the formation of the Gestapo, oops, I mean Department of Homeland Security? Isn't that their job?

We hire thousands of new cops every year and it does nothing to prevent crime.

The terrorist threat is not from a foreign power, they are worried that the people are going to wake up and realize very soon what has actually happened. The people will be the terrorists, when they can no longer afford to eat.

I keep getting flashes remembering the Ahnold movie The Running Man

www.youtube.com... t&p=768CE80172D5FECA&index=2
www.youtube.com... t&p=768CE80172D5FECA&index=0
www.youtube.com... t&p=26D4C9DEDE07E03F&index=0

reply to post by jackinthebox


I can personally attest that some of them are very professional.

Even better than corporate mercs - go with the best - private contractors.

Ultimately, it is our own individual responsibility to protect ourselves, don't you think?



[edit on 8-2-2008 by kerontehe]

reply to post by kerontehe


I have worked as a private contractor. There's a world of difference between an individual protecting themselves, and a contractor who is well paid (or sometimes not so well paid) to do what is instructed. There is little incentive or obligation for the private contractor to be concerned with people's rights.

[edit on 2/8/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by jackinthebox


Exactly. That is the whole point. Sometimes you DO get what you pay for.

I also worked as a private contractor for over 11 years.

Any potential confrontation where you have human facing human, the only assurance you have for attention to individual rights is the moral judgement of the individuals involved.

Safer to invoke their self interest than their altruism.

First of all, this article should be taken with a grain of salt. Unless there is proof that a bunch of CEO's are going to run around capping citizens, I wouldn't be too concerned. Second, I checked into the actual Group, and the application process is more strict that most would imagine. You have to pass a full Federal Background Check before being allowed into the Organization. In other words, I wouldn't worry about a homicidal maniac obtaining a legal permit to carry out their insanity. I understand possible concerns, but it isn't a free for all join-up posse.

reply to post by kerontehe

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


I have some concern over about the individuals involved, sure. But not much really. After all, these private contractors could just as easily become cops, wether thet're "good" or "bad."

The difference is that the police still get payed in tax dollars. Private contractors do not. The leaders in police departments still have to answer to the taxpayers. Private contractors only answer to their handlers. It's hard enough to sue a cop for violating your human rights. Good luck going up against an international conglomerate.

Greetings. I'm Alan Clegg. I also go by the nickname Knobee.

I'm also an InfraGard member. I have been for several years, and actually serve on the board of the Eastern Carolina InfraGard chapter.

For the record, I'd like to tell everyone that the crap that has come out of "The Progressive" over the last week is amazing.

InfraGard members are not, and never has been "deputized" by anyone. We certainly don't have "shoot to kill" orders.

I've blogged and linked a number of articles regarding this on my own website which you can find at alan.clegg.com...

Lots of questions have been asked about the "secrecy" of the organization. There is no secrecy. Go to www.infragard.net... and take a look. Find your local chapter and feel free to show up at a meeting. See just how secret we are.

Note that one of the large wins of InfraGard is the ability to use the FBI as a collector and “scrubber” of data.

Consider this scenario: a financial institution has an incident that they deal with internally (a hacker using a formerly unknown exploit, etc). They don’t want to deal with law enforcement directly because of issues with public relations, stock holders, etc.

InfraGard allows information on the case to be given to the FBI and “sanitized”, removing all information that points back to the specific organization from which it was generated. The sanitized report, containing enough information for other organizations to close down the vulnerability is distributed to the InfraGard finance sector.

It’s not about tattling on John who was outside smoking a joint during lunch.

I used to wonder how these amazingly stupid conspiracy theories got started.. now I'm in the middle of one and know how... irresponsible reporting and pure, flat-out lies.

My honest opinion about that "business owner" that told the "reporter" that they were given shoot-to-kill orders is that he was at a bar using it as a pickup line: "Hey, you wanna know a secret? I'm a gubmit spy! Kinda like 007. I can shoot to kill. Yeah.. and you got on some nice shoes"

reply to post by Knobee


How high are you in your information ranks? like any other private institution they work mostly on day to day basic from the top to the bottom.

We most remember that many of the infrastructure in our nation have more foreign interest invested that our own national one..

Originally posted by marg6043

How high are you in your information ranks? like any other private institution they work mostly on day to day basic from the top to the bottom.

High enough to know that the article was pure Barbra Streisand.

I'm high enough in the information ranks to know that when martial law is declared you will be [REDACTED]

Seriously though, I've run for the InfraGard National Board twice (actually withdrew before the election this time due to non-related issues).

The organization is about information sharing among providers of the infrastructure that you folks use on a day-to-day basis, not on shooting you, keeping you in detention camps, or whatever else you might want to imagine...

Amazingly, I'd think that people would appreciate that this organization exists OUTSIDE of the government (and is open to people attending meetings, etc), but it seems that we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Be well.

Originally posted by DimensionalDetective

FBI 'Deputizing' Businesses and granting them 'shoot to kill' rights!

www.progressive.org

Today, more than 23,000 representatives of private industry are working quietly with the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. The members of this rapidly growing group, called InfraGard, receive secret warnings of terrorist threats before the public does—and, at least on one occasion, before elected officials. In return, they provide information to the government, which alarms the ACLU. But there may be more to it than that. One business executive, who showed me his InfraGard card, told me they have permission to “shoot to kill” in the event of martial law.
InfraGard is “a child of the FBI,” says Michael Hershman, the chairman of the advisory board of the InfraGard National Members Alliance and CEO of the Fairfax Group, an international consulting firm.

InfraGard started in Cleveland back in 1996, when the private sector there cooperated with the FBI to investigate cyber threats.

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 7-2-2008 by DimensionalDetective]

Anything that alarms the ACLU, is probably a good thing.

Originally posted by kozmo
WTF is the matter with people!?!? If I read "If you are innocent you have nothing to worry about" one more time I'm gonna PUKE

I've ascertained that people who rely on the old, "IF your innocent..." rubbish have NO knowledge of history. The Poles, the Jews and countless Germans were innocent as well and they had PLENTY to worry about, now didn't they!? Can't any of you advocating for this see the parallels? If not, you really need to purchase a few history books and get to education yourselves!

We are sliding into a state controlled dictatorship where individual freedoms are being sacrificed at the alter of state control all in the name of "safety" - and you fail to recognize the dangers that this poses to our individual liberty?

It is so painfully sad to read anyone sticking up for this.

Learn about the Stasi, the Brownshirts, the Secret Police etc... these tactics have an unfavorable place in history with respect to the freedom and liberty of citizens.

Did you notice that the Stasi, Brownshirts, and Secret Police all worked for governments or parties with "Socialist" in their names?

reply to post by Knobee


Thanks for the update Knobee. I, for one appreciate that you and other members of Infraguard see it as a positive. I have also been in situations that the general public would think of as conspiracies and I knew quite differently at the time.

While this helps me feel a little more comfortable with the current state of Infraguard, I still have concerns for the potential abuse and don't feel good about the oversight our executive branch would be likely to provide over time, not given their recent record.

This seems to be getting picked up, slowly but surely. Here's an article on it from alternet.org:

www.alternet.org...