It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


FOIA: Army CIC UFO Files Various Subjects Including "Horten Brothers - Flying Wing"

page: 1
<<   2 >>

log in


posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 09:40 AM
Army CIC UFO Files
This is a file consisting of investigations, reports, on various things including the Denmark UFO, German rocket development and the Horton Brothers Tailless aircraft.

Document date: 1111-11-11
Department: Army CIC
Author: Various
Document type: File
pages: 339


Archivist's Notes: This file is very diverse with a concentration of efforts in finding the Horten Brothers who were developing the flying wing for Germany during WWII, the search appeared frantic, a race so to speak, with the hopes of denying the Horten knowledge from falling into Soviet hands. There are reports of investigation, letters, including the Bernardy letter, speaking of spirits telling of the destruction of the US, A guide called the Air Intelligence Guide for Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft, discussing the likelihood of Soviet using this new technology with nuclear powered propulsion, Soviet experiments in the arctic with the intention of opening a gap in the atmosphere to allow the use of the sun's rays as a weapon. This file also contains some photos which are hard to interpret, sketches of the Horten wing designs, and a sketch of a gyroscope flying saucer with some tech notes, most of the file is legible but there is plenty of pages which will yield little information. An interesting file from the Counter Intelligence Corps.

posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 12:46 PM
This is an interesting assortment of documents relating to the period right after WWII. A rush was on by the U.S. forces to obtain any German technological information ahead of both the Soviets and Allied nations. Anything and everything was considered, though special attention for a major portion of the documents deals with the Horton Brothers.

There is a wealth of names and leads, and any researcher will need to spend days just noting names and locations of witnesses. There is far too much to summarize, as there is a massive amount of data to be sifted through, much of it seemingly contradictory.

While there should be items of real value, there is a caveat on my part about all of this. Mostly what is presented is interviews (interrogations) of Germans by an occupying army. These witnesses want to appear helpful and cooperative, and yet if they really only had rumors, then they used that, so the factual data is sparse.

In point of fact, there are reported rumors here that the Hortons went the UK, to France where they were last known to be working in some complex, to the U.S., and even to be turning out planes for the Russians. There is a great deal of confusion, and a reader gets the feeling that at times these witnesses were telling whatever they thought the U.S. interrogators wanted to hear.

Very near the beginning of these documents is one unusual report of a UFO from Denmark, with little explanation. However, there seems to be photos of some object. These photos (I doubt they are drawings) are shown next to a ruler, which indicates that this object was in the possession of the military photographers.

The size, judging by the ruler, would mean that it was only a mere inches long. It is a teardrop shape, with a rough surface and an irregular head. The photos are not very good, by todays standards. This was deemed important enough to have had photos taken from many angles and views, as if it were the focus of an in depth study.

What struck me as remarkable is that there are modern photos that match these to a very great degree. Not only do these newer photos exist, but they too are said to be part of a spacecraft. There is even a current discussion of the newer objects here on ATS at this time.

Is there a connection? I certainly have no idea at this point, but it does raise a lot of questions in my mind.

posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 07:38 PM
This post is in reference to the Soviet Arctic Circle Experiments in the Arctic Circle, beginning on page 303, though I am focusing on the investigation document on pages 313-314 dated 18Jul47.

This doc discusses the possibility of the Soviets conducting electrical experiments with the goal of opening a gap in the atmosphere, allowing the full UV rays to penetrate and focusing this energy to create enough power to burn with heat more intense than a regular fire.

Another interesting portion of this report is that an "atmospheric opening" could cause a visible residual effect which could be a cause of some of the UFO sightings.

Being a novice and having general knowledge of the UFO phenomena, this is a very interesting document, though it does seem to me, something of sci-fi genre. It also has a HAARP ring? to it since it deals with manipulation of the atmosphere.

What has definitely been found out concerning this information? Has this been researched further? What were the Soviet's doing in the Arctic in 1947?

These questions may already have answers, I just offer them up for consideration.

posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 09:16 PM
the beginning portion of this document explains about what sounds like "Foo"fighters from WWII, could this be true? (pages 4-9 are the photo's, pages 27-29 are the explanation, which is followed by the original letter, the reference is dated September 11, 1952) it is intriguing to say the least, and with the Photos that resemble the Object referenced it makes one wonder if the Third Reich did have UFO's of some sort, and what if any technology we did get.
The information provided in these documents could become a lifetime project for research

posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 09:29 PM
Flying Saucer from Denmark

As described by others this document is full of several files and they are extremely interesting so I decided to give more detail and break them up into different posts. The document was a consolidation FOIA release on everything the Army had under the file name of “Flying Saucer” and released in 1998. This information comes from the CIC, or Counter Intelligence Corp, which was the main intelligence gathering agency after WW2, so these are all older files from the mid to late Fourties.

The first file CIC 202085, is labeled “Flying Saucer from Denmark”, and is some photographs of a metallic looking object or objects. What makes it special is that it looks amazingly close to a similar object that Bob White claims to have recovered from a UFO, which was a teardrop shape comprised mostly of aluminum and has very strange characteristics. See the link below for more information.

Unfortunately, there is no other information on the object in the document including what it is made of or how it was recovered. One thing is for sure; the government had it at one time, and maybe still does. In the first discussion linked below, there was a man that claimed to have worked on the object in the document years ago.

The next file number is CIC 198239 starting on page 14, and looks to be some listing of sightings under the title “Flying Saucer”. There isn’t any more information other than dates and locations.

There is a report on page 28 from someone claiming that his invention was the cause of all the flying saucer reports. The invention generated what he called “globular lightning”, but he was unable to demonstrate it because he was in jail.

Next post will cover the files on the Horten Brothers.

Related Discussions:
Recovered Piece Of UFO! Is This Irrefutable Evidence Of Alien Presence?
Man claims metal fragment came from UFO!

[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]

[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]

posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 09:55 PM
Horten Brothers and the Flying Wing

The document then goes into the Horten Brothers starting on page 43, saying they have been located and interrogated. The files are in the reverse order according to the dates, so later reports expressed that they were still looking for them and asking other German engineers of their whereabouts after the war.

The fear was that a Flying Wing aircraft had been developed by the Horten Brothers and was possibly the reason for the flying saucer sightings, and worse yet that the Russians possibly had a working design from plans recovered at the end of the war. There are other files of other individuals like Wendel Fritz and Walter Ziegler that were interviewed because of possible connections to working on the Flying Wing airplane and whether they knew if the Russians were also working on a version of it.

Starting on page 62 is a translated document on the use of flaps on the wings of aircraft, with diagrams that very much resemble those on modern airliners.

Page 69 shows a very rough diagram of the Flying Wing aircraft, followed by more translated text of the flight characteristics.

File number 198239 started on page 80, which contains information on Ernst Heinkel of Heinkel Aircraft that also worked with Willy Messerschmidt.

Page 84 started a file on Egwin Leiber, another German Engineer.

Page 94 was a letter referring to “Operation Harass”, and the subjects were the Horton Brothers, but I didn’t see any other reference to it on other reports.

Other previous diagrams show the crescent wing design very similar to the modern B2 Bomber, but I like this diagram from page 96, of the parabolic version of the Flying Wing aircraft with rocket propulsion.

A report starting on page 126 summarized that the Germans had not built any flying saucer craft, but that the Horten Brothers were working on a parabolic flying wing design. The report said that models had been built and gives the progress that had been made on the design.

Another report on page 129 said the Horten Brothers were last known to be in Goettingen, Germany, which was in the British zone in the Fall of 1946 and there were rumors of them being kidnapped by the Russians. Again, these reports were in reverse order.

That is the bulk on the Horten Brothers, but there is more to come.

Related Articles:
Wikipedia Article on the Horten Brothers

[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]

posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 08:57 PM
The Study of Flying Saucers by Air Material Command

The next section is still related to the Horten Brothers and is of several directives to locate and question German aircraft engineers and find out if any of the projects could explain the sightings of flying saucers. They are from Air Material Command and specifically state that they believe that something is being seen in the skies, which obviously would be seen as a threat. This is expressed in several letters, one dated October 1947 on page 144, had this interesting paragraph.

“2. For your information, the Air Material Command at WRIGHT FIELD is making a study of this subject and is constructing models to be tested in a wind tunnel. As a guide in constructing the models, descriptions from [various ?] persons who claimed to have sighted these objects were used. The Air Material Command is of the opinion that some sort of object, such as the flying saucer, did exist.”

Similar letters also name the Horten Brothers as subjects to be located and questioned, which obviously led to the previous reports.

On page 148 is a must see. Under the title “Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft”, there is a list of flight characteristics as observed from credible witnesses. There is too much to reproduce, but the highlights are that they reflect light, with no sound, oval or disc shaped, have the ability to disappear and reappear, fly at high speeds and altitudes, fly in tight formation when more than one is present and have actions that indicate manual or remote control.

The last description is worth noting. “The craft appears to have the ability to out a clear path through clouds- width estimated to be one-half mile.” Incredibly, this sounds exactly like the recent Chicago O’Hare incident.

Related Discussion:
O'Hare Airport UFO Sighting -- UPDATE: Photos & Analysis

Still not even half way through this document yet.

posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 06:43 AM
Claims of knowledge of Flying Saucers

Next are some interesting files on a few Germans that made some wild claims of having knowledge of the Flying Saucers.

Starting on Page 158 is a translated letter from a German named Guida Bernardy in August of 1947 in which he requested meeting with General Clay. He claimed that Hitler was still alive and directing a project involving a vehicle that could travel long distances and deliver explosives. These vehicles were the flying saucers that were being seen over the United States and Europe. He said sometimes they would be seen as fireballs when made of incorrect materials. They were supposedly designed to deliver the Schitorit Bomb or the German Atomic Bomb, which would have a destructive radius of 800 kM.

Page 172 was a file on another person named Heiss-Adalbert Ahuis, who requested access to the flying disc recovered at Roswell. He said he had read in the German Newspapers about all the Flying Discs and said he had experimented with similar shapes to be used for aircraft.

Page 184 was yet another letter from a German named Dr. T. Kelterborn, claiming he was the inventor of the Flying Saucer apparatus that was being seen in the US.

These claims obviously turned out to be false and are more than likely attempts at trying to gain entry into the US from Germany as so many German scientists did after WW2.

posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 08:58 PM
More on the Horten Brothers and the Flying Wing

There were a few more pages regarding the Horten Brothers Flying Wing aircraft on Page 190 with another translated letter of someone who had worked on models. An unnamed letter stated that a group of people was to be gathered to begin work to develop the aircraft. Several pages of illegible pages followed that were more files on other people involved with the project.

Beginning on page 226 looks to be the actual files on the Horten Brothers along with a history of their whereabouts after the war and how they might gain employment in the US. They appear to be dated around May 1948. The pages are difficult to read and several are illegible. Files on family members and other engineers continue to page 270.

Page 273 a report on Russian airfield construction and aircraft production on new fighter jets. From page 280 to 308 are some additional copies of the same reports from Air Material Command.

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Hal9000]

posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 09:49 PM
Russian Experiments Near Arctic Circle

The Dossier 198230 the Russian Experiments Near Arctic Circle began on Page 309. As JacKatMtn brought up earlier, a letter on Page 313 begins to explain the purpose of the investigation.

“One of the explanations for the “flying saucers” over the US is allegedly given to be due to Russian experiments near the Artic Circle in the area of the island [illegible] (New Land)”

It continues with a description of the experiment as opening a gap in the “electric atmosphere” to let in the ultra-violet rays from the sun in and “by means of instruments and glasses” the rays could be directed and used as a weapon.

According to the report, the electric device used to open the gap could possibly cause a “conglomeration” in the atmospheric layer that would become visible and be mistaken for a flying saucer.

My guess is that this was another claim that turned out to be false. I could be wrong and these may have been real experiments, but without more information it is hard to believe. Some would call this “disinformation” and is purposely put out to either divert attention from something else, or to waste resources investigating false claims. It is an effective tactic in the world of intelligence.

Further reading:

I did find one other reference to this subject posted on Project 1947 website under Ghost Rockets, but have no idea of the source of information.

12 Nov 47 - Frm AFOIR-DD to CG, USAF ATTN: Asst Chief of Staff A-1 SUBJ: Russian Experiments near the Arctic Circle - "With regard to your request in basic communication, the following comments are submitted: The Russian experiments on Nowaja Zemalaja are believed to be experiments in nuclear physics, especially concerned with cosmic rays...The earth's 'electronic atmosphere' (ionosphere) does absorb Actinic Rays (extreme ultra violet light) from the suns radiation. 'Roentgen Rays' (X-Rays) are not believed to be present to any appreciable extent in the sun's output. Focusing these actinic rays by any 'means of instruments and glasses' is not considered likely, as they are absorbed by practically all materials...The 'electronic atmosphere' is conventionally called the 'ionosphere'. Any energy which men might apply to de-ionize a 'gap' in this 'ionosphere' would have to equal or exceed the energy the sun applies to the same area. This energy would be exceedingly high, more than that consumed by a large electrified city...While this report may indicate a serious research project that is worthy of watching, the specific information and its purported explanation of 'saucers' are not considered worthy of any action at this time. FILED UNDER: 373.2 Winter Operations"

posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 10:10 PM
Conclusion of Army CIC UFO FOIA Document

After page 314, the document continues with a hand written copy of the Bernardy letter (see Claims of Knowledge of Flying Saucers) and looks to be longer than what was written previously, but I didn’t bother to check. After that there isn’t anything else of interest all the way to the end on page 339.

Overall this is one of the more interesting FOIA documents that contains some amazing files, but also contained a lot of uninteresting files as well, but this is how it goes with Government Documents. In this case, there are diamonds in the rough, and needles in the haystack.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 08:38 AM
reply to post by Hal9000

A craft, just like the model you have shown there, flew over Sussex England around six or seven years ago, it was silver metallic in appearance and seamless. As it flew over, it's 'tail' seemed to flip from side to side, it was in broad daylight in the early part of the morning.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 10:51 AM
reply to post by horsegiver

That sounds like an interesting sighting. Did you see it yourself? If so, can you give more details?

The version of the Flying Wing that most people are familiar with is the delta wing which fit the description of the Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting which is obviously why the Horten Brothers became such an interest to the CIC and Air Materiel Command.

The Kenneth Arnold sighting was also the beginning of the UFO wave of the Forties.

Arnold described the objects' shape as reminiscent of crescents or flying wings, or as resembling a flat saucer, and described their erratic motion as resembling a saucer skipped across water; from this, the press quickly coining the new terms "flying saucer" and "flying disk" to describe such objects, many of which were reported within days after Arnold's sighting.

Wikipedia article on Kenneth Arnold

Now compare both of those previous images to the modern B2 Stealth Bomber, which many believe has been the reason for some UFO sightings before it was made public.

I would agree that some sighting are of secret military aircraft, but that can't explain all of them.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 11:27 AM
reply to post by Hal9000
There's not much more to tell really ,yes, I saw it as it flew over our house, my wife saw it too, it was the strange motion of the tail that drew our attention.
Interestingly, quite recently, I saw an item on display, listed as a 'sculpture', I think it was somewhere in New York, however I saved the photo. If you would like to see the photo I can only email it to you as I do not have enough points to allow me to post it on the site.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 12:11 PM
reply to post by Hal9000

I have just found the photo, it can be seen on
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 12:11 PM
reply to post by Hal9000

I have just found the photo, it can be seen on
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 12:23 PM
Hal, an excellent summary. This is indeed a very interesting set of documents.

I am interested now in what exactly became of the Horten Brothers. I'm not as good as many here are at using all of the resources of the internet, but I can't really find anything positive on where they went, or who they worked for later.

It is possible that because there was some fear that the Russians or others would want them, that they were given new identities upon moving to the US, but that is pure speculation.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 02:44 PM
reply to post by horsegiver

I thought you were referring to the parabolic flying wing diagram, and now I see you were referring to the metallic object in my first post. I don't think that was a model, but probably some piece of the UFO or maybe something that discharged from it. Who knows?

So the thing you saw was teardrop in shape and the tail moved? That sounds kind of like a fish swimming in water.

Here is a link to picture of the sculpture you mentioned.

That is interesting and looks like there is a window to look into where steps are leading up to it so people can look in.

Have any idea what is inside of it?

reply to post by NGC2736

According to Wikipedia the brothers split up and never came to the US.

Post World War II

As the war ended, Reimar Horten emigrated to Argentina, where he continued designing and building sailplanes and one twin-engined flying wing transport, which was unsuccessful commercially. Walter remained in Germany after the war and became an officer in the post-war German Air Force Luftwaffe. Reimar died on his ranch in Argentina in 1994, while Walter died in Germany in 1998.

You may find additional information at the bottom of the article under the sited sources.

posted on Dec, 22 2007 @ 02:52 PM
reply to post by Hal9000

Thank you. Because of some abuse, I have been reluctant to use wikipedia lately, and failed to go there as I should have.

posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 04:42 AM
That sculpture is so accurate that it could almost be the actual craft, who would know? Just imagine what fun it would be to put a real UFO on show and pretend that it was a sculpture!
If I can just make clear that, as it flew over, the tail 'flipped' from side to side as it flew over, the craft was rigid and the tail did not 'flex' the whole craft was 'wiggling' and from the rear it gave the impression that the occupant were deliberately drawing attention to themselves by 'waving' their tail.
This is what made me think that the sculptor had seen the real thing beacause he entitled the piece 'Wave UFO'.

top topics

<<   2 >>

log in