handgun?

WTF!!!! What's with all the Dirty Harry hand-cannons? Didn't the guy ask for a concealed carry weapon? And who the f*ck is Elephant hunting around here?

It's funny, every single time someone asks for advice on a protection piece everyone starts throwing out all of these exotic hand-cannons, foreign made specialty pieces etc... Like most of you even have any of these

Why are there only a hand full of people able to recommend a sound piece that accomplishes the stated goals? I read about 6 in this whole thread.

I'm no gun "Expert" and I hardly give a crap about any of those exotic or specialty pieces. When considering a firearm or sidearm I look for a few things - reliability being chief among them and ease of procuring ammo being the other. Next would be matching the piece to the task. Like I said before, too many people appear to be hunting bull moose or elephant - or maybe just trying to impress people - I don't know As far as capacity - a real marksman could get the job done in two shots so I'm unsure why people are looking for 12+ mag capacities... Are you all that bad at hitting your targets - plus that's alot of weight and bulk to to have to hide.

For my money there is no better CCW than the .40S&W round. A perfect fit between the hyper-velocity 9mm and the hand-cannon .45. It's got plenty of speed for accuracy and plenty of stopping power - both desireable traits for a CCW.

For my CCW I carry a Sig P239in a .40S&W round. I prefer the Federal Hydroshock +P. This is the same piece carried by the Dept. of Homeland Security, Secret Service, FBI and other agencies. The reason... RELIABILITY and ACCURACY and CONCEALABILITY... the top three things you should desire in a CCW.

Glocks are also very good pieces however I just have an inherent problem with plastic firearms - it's a personal thing - but shouldn't stop you from evaluating one.

I think you'll love the .40 - it's got manageable recoil, incredible accuracy and stopping power, is affordable and easily found and totally appropriate for a CCW piece. Hope this helps you out.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Love the SIG.

Ditto. I tried Glock but imho the SIG is a better gun.

Originally posted by kozmo
WTF!!!!

What's with all the Dirty Harry hand-cannons?

Didn't the guy ask for a concealed carry weapon? And who the f*ck is Elephant hunting around here?

Hahahaha, I thought the same exact thing. I was thinking maybe the mini-glock .40 or 9mm, the Smith and Wesson .40 subcompact, maybe even a little Makarov 9mm. I scroll down to find...


"COLT 1911, .45, with tactical rail, combat grips, and laser sights!!"

Whoa, whoa, whoa... A little .40 cal will do just fine. In any street situation, you probably won't even have to fire it, regardless of it's caliber. People know those bullets are going to hurt regardless if it's .50 cal Israeli DE or a .22 deringer. Not bad to have a Mac-10 with a few 30 round clips in the closet for home protection, though, either...

Originally posted by kozmo
As far as capacity - a real marksman could get the job done in two shots so I'm unsure why people are looking for 12+ mag capacities... Are you all that bad at hitting your targets - plus that's alot of weight and bulk to to have to hide.

That is a point of view held by lots of shooters. However you tend to find that the more actual shootings someone's been in, the more ammo they want to carry.

A personal defence shooting is unexpected, fast, scary and fueled mostly by adrenaline. Fine motor skills go out the window and peripheral vision becomes a haze. Targets are usually moving, in partial cover and are at awkward angles. This is completely different from the conditions that we train in, no matter how "realistic" we try to make them. This is an ideal recipe for misses.

Combine this with the fact we're talking about handguns here. No handgun round will guarantee first round stops no matter what anyone says. To guarantee a stop with a handgun, they need to be hit in the spine or brain. Heart and lung shots offer no guarantee of immediate stops. The only other option is multiple centre mass hits to try to incapacitate the target. One or two hits may do it. Then again it may not. I'd rather have a few more rounds on tap just in case.

reply to post by PaddyInf


Paddy - I totally understand what you're saying. That is why a 7 or 8 round mag should be sufficient. It also depends on the round. A 9mm round - absent spine, heart or brain, is likely to pass through the perp and allow them to continue their assault. In fact, I've heard stories of people who had been shot by a 9mm that didn't even know it until after the fact. The velocity was so high and the range so close it literally passed right through them. It's called over-penetration is dangerous to innocent bystanders.

That's why I pack Federal HydroShocks +P. It's a jacketed hollow-point plus penetrator. One shot at critical mass will pick someone up off the ground and set them down on their back - HARD! The frags will scramble flesh in an instant. May not kill 'em in one shot - but that's why I said 2 shots; the second finishes them off if necessary. Normally though, 1 hit is deadly enough to end the conflict on the spot.

People don't need 10, 12 or 15 shot mags. This isn't the OK Corral for Pete's sake. Responsible gun owners who carry CCW aren't going to go shooting the freaking place up! Just the act of thinking cooly and calmly enough to pull your piece likely means that your cool and calm enough to drop the BAM-BAM double tap down on the perp.

Oh yeah, last thing - the other thing I love about my sig is it's dual action - no safety! No levers or buttons to fumble-f*ck with while in crisis. 1 long pull on the trigger does it all - after that short pulls will continue dropping rounds!

Originally posted by kozmo
Paddy - I totally understand what you're saying. That is why a 7 or 8 round mag should be sufficient. It also depends on the round. A 9mm round - absent spine, heart or brain, is likely to pass through the perp and allow them to continue their assault. In fact, I've heard stories of people who had been shot by a 9mm that didn't even know it until after the fact. The velocity was so high and the range so close it literally passed right through them. It's called over-penetration is dangerous to innocent bystanders.

I've heard the same stories mate. The thing is most of these stories are many years old and relate to ball ammo. This is indeed a problem with ball, but modern bullet designs are better at dissipating their energy than they used to be. More often than not, the modern 9mm will stop in the target. In fact the high velocity of 9mm lends itself well to modern ammo, as most bullets rely on high velocities to expand reliably.

Fact of the matter is that there are stories of people being shot with 7.62 NATO rounds and not realising it, and no-one would suggest that this is a poor man-stopper. Some people can run on pure adrenaline for a several minutes, even with multiple potentially fatal hits from any pistol round unless a vital (read CNS) hit is scored. Then again some people just drop the second they're hit, no matter where. There are just too many variables.

My past experiences of concealed carry required me to potentially engage multiple targets quickly. Hence my penchant for high capacity weapons. I would fully advocate a revolver if you shoot it better and it fulfills your needs.

Horses for courses, me thinks.

reply to post by PaddyInf


Well if a .45 +P hollow point doesn't put a fist size hole through the bad guy, or knock off a limb , it will almost definitely knock the bad guy on his arse!

reply to post by kozmo


There are some real hand cannon revolvers out there. But I'm still happy with my choice knowing the round is going to put Mr. bad guy down for the count. You can never go wrong with extra ammo either. Better safe than sorry. My 4" is a little on the large size for conceal, the shorter version is perfect. I wanted a compromise between the 5" and 3".

My Springfield XD .45 was only $535.00 USA Dollars last year. Includes two mags, holster, speed loader, hard case, and it was after tax.

You can double that easily with some of the guns mentioned on here.

reply to post by kozmo


I practice that "double tap" quite a bit. Two quick pulls, first aimed at mid section and with reaction to recoil the second is on the head. Nailing the coffin shut with the second shot even if they are pumped up on adrenaline.

reply to post by on_yur_6


True about cost... My Sig ran about $900 with accessories... 4 clips, case, cleaning kit, clip holster. Expensive but worth every penny in my estimation. Never have I fired a handgun with such balance and control yet possess stop pure stopping power.

Yes... double-tap is the ONLY way to train for concealed carry. People need to understand that if you are intending CCW, you must understand that a time might present itself for you to not only draw the weapon, but fire it. Let me say this... if you draw that weapon you had damned well better be ready to either kill someone or be killed. He who hesitates is DEAD!

CCW is not meant to be cool or have some token piece to flash about. It is about protection... YOURS. If one cannot bring themselves to kill another human being then one should NEVER pursue a CCW permit and carry. For those of you thinking about it - think very, very, very long and hard about that.

Originally posted by on_yur_6
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

Well if a .45 +P hollow point doesn't put a fist size hole through the bad guy, or knock off a limb

, it will almost definitely knock the bad guy on his arse!

I aggree a .45 +P HP would be at the top end of the "pistol damage" scale and would be a fine choice for a handgun if you can handle it. It has a good reputation as a as a stopper. The thing is it's still a pistol round.

When I was a nurse in Belfast City A&E we used to see people with pistol hits all the time. They ranged from .22LR to .357 Mag to .455 Webly. Not one of them compared to the sort of thing you get from a rifle round (which we also saw plenty of). A pistol hit is still a low velocity hit. They rely on bullet design and shot placement more than anything to drop an opponent. I certainly didn't see any limbs blown off by them despite plenty of 6-pack customers (a type of punishment shooting given by paramilitaries - involved shooting the victim in the knees, ankles and elbows, rendering them permanently disabled).

There are so many colloquial stories floating around concrening stopping power, with little real evidence. Most of the stories are passed around by people who have never seen a gunshot wound. Permanent cavity is the only thing that does damage. Temporary cavity does nothing with a pistol, as the velocity is too low to expand tissue past breaking point. Unless a round hits a vital area, chances are it will not immediately stop an opponent. This is not to say that a single round will not stop someone, but the chance is high that it won't.

In reality, assuming all other factors are equal, the real life damage caused by a pistol bullet between 9mm and .45ACP isn't hugely different. While this isn't a view shared by some shooters, it is what my experience has shown. Hence the old saying "Never bring a pistol to a gun-fight".

Most people who have been in a gunfight will tell you that a multiple centre-mass hits are the most effective way to stop an opponent. You simply can't guarantee a head shot, and to be honest most people can't make one when they are moving, the target is moving and they are being shot at. Safest bet is to aim at the biggest target available, i.e. centre mass. This doesn't necesserily mean centre torso, it means centre of visable target. If this is the head then so be it. If this is the flank then that's where you aim.

Practicing the motions will take you so far and is definately a good idea, but until it's been tried with someone shooting back, it's just too hard to understand. Chances are you will focus on the centre mass, and keep squeezing the trigger until the target goes down. This has been shown to happen more often than not in actual shootings. Another common injury is hand wounds. People who don't focus on the centre mass often focus on the direct threat, i.e. the weapon. This results in hand hits.

In the end you may be one of the lucky few whos' training kicks in. Then again you may not. You'll never know until the first round goes down.

Good shooting to you anyway mate.

Glock 17. That's the gun I recomend. My message is too short so I gotta add ALLLL kinds of letters to it.

You can never have too many bullets! If you must shoot a bad guy then you keep pressing the trigger until he is down.

Never assume that you will have only one attacker and never assume that you will be cool under fire. Adrenalin will make your body do all sort of things and missing the target is one of them.

Roper

reply to post by kozmo


well i can see your point about extra weight etc but lets look at a few things.

is it better to have a lightweight gun that your arms take all the recoil or dont you think that the little extra mass in the pistol to help take the shock would help your aim in a combat situation (and someone jumping you necessitating the drawing of your sidearm is combat whether its in baghdad or detroit)

then take into consideration that im probably not the only one out there who's practiced triple taps...2 in the chest one in the head. hell one of the events for my teams combat pistol competitions WAS a triple tap to the target. so unless we were on the qualification range where ammo was limited to the number of targets for the range, we always triple tapped.

so ammo capacity much like weapon choice is just another personal preference. your choice to take 8rnds is your choice just as 10-12 is my choice. doesnt make me a cowboy man

reply to post by Damocles


Damocles... I hear what you're saying and I'm saying basically the same - comfort is the key factor. Your sidearm is an extension of yourself.

With respect to weight versus recoil - I can't necessarily agree. It seems from my experience that different guns handle recoil differently. Example: I have a S&W 10mm and a Sig P229 in S&W.40. Both essentially the same size, weight and fires about the same rounds. The S&W jumps all over the freaking place when fired. It is a very sloppy piece. My Sig muzzle-jumps about the same amount as it recoils making recovery much easier for resighting the target. In other words, it is just balanced much better (hence the price tag!).

With respect to CCW - I am lookiing for a balance between concealability, weight and stopping power. For me a .40 is a perfect choice, other prefer bigger and others prefer smaller. Who's right? Everyone!

My only beef is that people provide REALISTIC information to novices who are seeking advice on CCW. Every single thread (You can search them) where someone asks is always the same crap - heavy hand-cannons and exotic foreign made pieces with impossible to find ammo! Hardly sound advice to someone who is starting out - wouldn't you agree?

I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT and its about as good as it gets right now as far as concealment and power as far as I'm concerned. Its not a target gun and you will know it after about two clips at the range because of the red mark this little pistol will leave on your hand but its definitely enough to get the job done in a pinch.

Everyone talking about caliber this, cannon that are forgetting the most important thing. Bullet placement! Sure if you want to pull your piece and close your eyes and squeeze and hope for the best a large caliber will suite you well. Rest assure no matter where you hit your perp you will blow a body part off. But if you practice with your weapon than large calibers and large frames for concealed carry are overkill in my opinion.

The fact remains that my little Kel-Tec 380 will go bang when needed and I guarantee regardless of what anyone says that it will be more than enough to get the job done.

I can carry my P3AT in the front pocket of my swim trunks easily without a print or outline. Its cheap, reliable, and it has a lifetime guarantee. What more could you ask for?

Hope this helps.

I went to buy a brand new Glock19 9mm

Ended up with a 1996 Beretta 92FS Centurion, by far the most accurate handgun ever made. More commonly known as the M9 military issued sidearm.

clip hold 16rds

On a side note, if open carry was legal. I would choose the H&K USP.40
hands down. IMO H&K firearms are by far more Superior to anything on the market. I have owned 3 so far and after trading a used H&K USP for a new Glock .40, I actually could not sleep that night after realizing what I had done.

[edit on 4-12-2007 by Digital_Reality]

reply to post by PaddyInf



No problem handling the recoil. I'm a big guy also why I like the double stack mag on the XD .45 for the larger grip. I've shot one of my old Mosin's 7.62x54 by holding it out in front of me with two hands and recoil didn't budge my arms.

I had a good friend when I was growing up take a .357 Mag to the upper thigh. He was 6'4 and he nearly lost his leg. It completely shattered the bone and the internal tissue damage was horrible. I'm guessing from the bone shattering? Just lucky it didn't hit the main artery. It took him nearly a year to walk halfway normal again.

I am looking for a thin 9mm now to carry. I want something that is extremely concealable, and light but very reliable. At the same time I want the grip long enough to extend below my palm so I can shoot it securely. I know many pistols have extensions available.

reply to post by kozmo


i see what youre saying and cant really disagree. guess where im coming from is just personal experience. i had a bersa .380 that was a really light single stack mag tiny little pistol. it had more recoil than my HK USP40 did.

reply to post by Chicagofreedomfighter


i like the 92 series...i qualified expert with the M9, but i still was more accurate with my USP. so think again its personal preference.

as to the whole concealability issue. my bersa (think ppk if u want a visual reference) was by far more concealable than my USP was, but i never had a problem with the USP either. so again, i think its going to come down to personal preference.

IF size of the frame is the main issue for someone, id go USP compact or Sig P229 personally.
and caliber is strictly what you feel you need to carry. some guys like the .45acp, i prefer a .40s&w and others prefer the 9mm. learn to be accurate and the caliber is almost secondary.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by Damocles]