"The Black Man, Is Crazy!"

Originally posted by truthseeka
CSIfan, it's good to see you actually doing something to help people in the hood. Improving computer literacy, as it were, is always a good thing for the hood; I've been involved in this type of thing with adults, but not to where I'm actually getting computers to people. Bravo.

Thanks, Truth, I just came in from throwing a "Thank God School is Over, and Summer is Here-Party" for the neighborhood kids. They had a ball!
I'm considering expanding my activity here because I am not satisfied with their reading skills.

I notice that SatansQue has a bit of a following here. Bad logic be damned...as long as it sounds good, I guess...

Really! If a clown on any board wanted to "BE BIG", all he has to do is start a "black people bashing" discussion. Americans traditionally love this, it's a Great American Pastime! But when you start figuring out how to bash yourself, you really should see a therapist. Yeah, I really respect a crazy black guy who doesn't want to be called black! NOT!

Originally posted by karby
why is it any of your business what people choose to call themselves?

Now you have hit GOLD!

That is the most important comment in this entire thread!
You get a STAR! And a BIG HUG! XOXOXO


Regardless of the reasoning behind it, why call one's self "Satansque" and criticize others who call themselves Black? Seems a little bit of the "pot calling the kettle Black!" heh heh...

[edit on 27-6-2007 by CSIfan]

[edit on 27-6-2007 by CSIfan]

Originally posted by CSIfan
If a clown on any board wanted to "BE BIG", all he has to do is start a "black people bashing" discussion.

You know what's really interesting? The constant "bashing" of the OP simply because he wants to talk about something that just might be important. It's a sensitive subject, yes, but being in such denial doesn't allow for you to consider that he just might have a point. He might be talking about something that really matters to those kids you help. It may not matter to you, being a self-assured adult who has been through nearly a lifetime, but to assume that it doesn't make a difference to anyone you care about is really quite closed-minded. You jump to the defensive (and then offensive and then back again), when really, there may be something of substance here. You might just want to take a listen.

The OP isn't the only person who has this opinion. There are other people (of all colors) who think this is something to look at. I suppose you think they're all just wrong and wrapped up in the Cosby-esque frenzy.

But it's "your people" who are hurting over this. And as long as you deny it, you can give them all the computers they can carry but they won't really feel good about themselves and live up to their full potential as self-actualizing, self-loving, contributing US citizens.

It seems it's more important to deny and attack (to fight) than to consider that someone else beside yourself may actually know something.

Shades of Black. The Hangups, the Hurt, the Healing

We both grew up in the same household, where we learned firsthand about the beauty and richness of Black folks. Black pride and Black self-love were bedrock values in our family. We were taught that the best things in life were Black and African--from the way I looked, to the way we worshipped. So why would "Black girl" yelled across a schoolyard become fighting words for me?

The fact was, in the outside world, Black was nowhere near as beautiful as it was at home. Not for a dark-skinned girl like me. And the sad thing was that the outside world that hated my dark skin wasn't filled with racist White people. It was populated entirely with Black faces. Young children's faces, to be exact, most of them not too far from my own deep shade. Blackie, Darky and African Booty-scratcher were the monikers given me by the kids in my all-Black elementary and mixed junior-high schools. Despite the messages of self-love that were passed on to me at home, I was really learning to hate myself at school. There, through the jeers and taunts of little Black children, I was introduced to the depths of Black self-hatred.

This is a real thing. There's something about judging one's self by the COLOR of their skin (not their race, culture or heritage but COLOR) that is throwing a wrench in the works here. It's hurting people for huge chunks of their lives.

Dark and Light Healing:

Now my skin is my favorite accessory, my wardrobe, mainly browns in every variation. I even sunbathe when I plan to wear evening white; the contrast is head-turning. Who needs jewelry when your body is living art? I've finally reclaimed, at great cost, the treasure that had been absconded with. I've figured out that beauty is not a skin tone. It's not a hair type. It's you.

After much struggle, I now know definitively that my mother loves me just as I am. But those years when I wasn't so sure remind me of all that we collectively sacrifice to the race and color wars. I also now hold the consciousness that sometimes I will be treated better than people I love because of the lightness of my skin, but this makes the person doing the privileging the perpetrator of pain, not me. This understanding both soothes and propels me. Because of it, I am even more vigilant in my insistence that all people be treated equally, and that beauty comes in every shade, including my own.

Originally posted by karby
why is it any of your business what people choose to call themselves?

To me, it's not so much about what a person calls themselves, it's about the DIVIDE between "black" and "white". Polar opposites. Identifying with one or the other is BOUND to have subconscious repercussions of division. of course, if one wants to feed the division, they're going to choose to identify with one of the extremes. If they want collaboration, they're going to at least recognize and consider the continuous spectrum of shades from the darkest African to the lightest Swede.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Really! If a clown on any board wanted to "BE BIG", all he has to do is start a "black people bashing" discussion. Americans traditionally love this, it's a Great American Pastime! But when you start figuring out how to bash yourself, you really should see a therapist. Yeah, I really respect a crazy black guy who doesn't want to be called black! NOT!

Yup. The last part had me laughing, but you forgot the part where this guy calls EVERYONE who uses black as a self-descriptor crazy. Pretty ironic.

But, like I said, some posters like his message. How one thinks SatansQue's bad logic is important is beyond me. Maybe you can explain it to me...

Oh yeah, don't forget to pass this on to the people as you dish out computers. Hell, you might consider scrapping the computer thing altogether; after all, it can't be as important as what you call yourself. Wouldn't you agree that not calling yourself black will take you much farther than computer literacy?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But it's "your people" who are hurting over this. And as long as you deny it, you can give them all the computers they can carry but they won't really feel good about themselves and live up to their full potential as self-actualizing, self-loving, contributing US citizens.

Did you really say that?

Honestly, BH, this is a topic I would never bring up with the children or the young adults. It's just hogwash, too crappy to even verbalize...honestly.

We talk about, well...here are my two favorite "lectures"

-In violin class I speak frequently about how beautiful music can relax a person, bring people together, transcend all color and geographical lines, and brings a person closer to God.

-Just in passing, I sometimes ask young people what they have accomplished today...I have a quick lecture I frequently give them about how all the cool guys standing around wasting their time always end up in trouble when they grow up, but the guys in little league, scouts, clubs and library and museum lovers always grow up to lead productive lives. I ask them to end each day assessing their activities for the day and think what could have made that day more productive.

We never talk about what color anyone is, we are all colors!

This Tuesday in violin class, I taught them two new words, "choreographer" and "metronome". We spoke a little bit about
George Balanchine, the famous. and greatest choreographer of ballet.

These are the types of discussions that will help young people think, focus, and learn. We don't have time to discuss the lunacy of what you speak of.

I have lived through many movements and eras. I enjoyed Beatlemania, I was a Flower Child, a young Black Panther, a Vietnam War Protester...and I enjoyed being a part of the collective thought of each of these groups.

I was in my 20's working as a clerk in the early 70's when an old white woman asked me loudly "what do you people like being called?" I made everyone laugh by saying my name, that's what I like being called!

Personally I don't have time to dwell on what people call me, nor will I teach any child to worry about silly stuff like that. Today I may be Black, African American, Afro American, Nubian...whatever. Doesn't change anything at all.

I worry how I am treated. Not what I am called.

I have volunteers, wonderful people, who are African, Black, Scottish, Jewish, Hispanic. Anyone who wants to help, whose heart is in the right place, that's what I like.

No one calls anyone black, white or anything. Just people. No silly conversations about what color anyone wants to be called.

Now, now, CSIfan...

The children will never amount to anything as long as they are "black." No matter how many violin lessons you teach them, or new words, or how many computers you put out there, they will still amount to nothing. Absolutely nothing.

They will always be bad, evil people, no matter what you do to help them, as they are "black."

Black, black, blackety black black black.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Now, now, CSIfan...

The children will never amount to anything as long as they are "black." No matter how many violin lessons you teach them, or new words, or how many computers you put out there, they will still amount to nothing. Absolutely nothing.

They will always be bad, evil people, no matter what you do to help them, as they are "black."

Black, black, blackety black black black.

Son, ain't this something?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I guess some folks WANT to be seen SEPARATELY as a 'white person' or WANT to be seen SEPARATELY as a 'black person'.... instead of just as a person.

FF, it's not about people wanting to be seen separately. I'm a woman, and people see me as a woman. Am I doing a disservice to myself by identifying as a woman? Obviously not: it is what it is. Wouldn't it seem weird if I told people not to describe me as a woman?

To me, being black is the same. It is what it is. You don't have to talk about it all day, or dwell on it, but it does affect one's interaction with the world, the same way womanhood does.

The purpose of this site IS to talk.

I've been saying the same thing csifan's been saying, so I feel like I can respond, even though you weren't speaking to me. You're right, this is a discussion board, but OTOH, if you're opining on how disgusted you are with the black community, and you identify with it yourself, the first question in my mind is: What are you doing to help?

Originally posted by karby
you are taking a word... entirely too literally...when people say they are 'black', they are describing, in the simplest terms, their ancestry, or the amount of melanin present in their skin, not the state of their souls.

You're right, of course, but allow me to add that, everyone else knows what we mean.

Originally posted by truthseeka
You say that words are NOT subject to change. The English language says otherwise. Care to explain why people nowadays don't connect "faggot" to bundled sticks? Or "holocaust" to a big fire? How about "gay" to a happy state of mind?

I said the same thing, but he never responded.

HarlemHottie, I know this is kind of late, but thanks for your posts here.

I haven't been on much lately (real-life stuff), but I really couldn't let this one go without commenting.

Originally posted by dbates
I have enough native American blood to get a tribal number but I don't go around calling myself "red man". I just say I'm an American. The color of my skin has nothing to do with who I am.

Did you grow up on a reservation? (I ask because it's well-known that people who grow up in ethnic enclaves tend to have stronger ethnic identities.)

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The constant "bashing" of the OP simply because he wants to talk about something that just might be important. It's a sensitive subject, yes, but being in such denial doesn't allow for you to consider that he just might have a point.

"Constant 'bashing'"?? He started a controversial thread and, according to my reading, lots more people have agreed with him that not. His point, imo, is overly- semantic and well into the realm of the ridiculous. It is not a good point. Actual "black" people have told him that it is not a good point. Thinking of myself as "black" does not make me lazy, stupid, or violent. How many times do I have to say it until people realize how silly it sounds?

This is a real thing. There's something about judging one's self by the COLOR of their skin (not their race, culture or heritage but COLOR) that is throwing a wrench in the works here. It's hurting people for huge chunks of their lives.

You're conflating two different issues.

First, every non-white group that has ever come into contact with whites/Europeans has a 'color problem,' as evidenced by the East Indian girl in your source. That is but another unfortunate result of colonization. It is not related to what they call themselves.

Second, from what I understand of the period, black Americans took on the label in the early(?) 1970's, as a rebuke to those who would make it negative, much like the "n-word" today. The OP seems to base much of his argument ("black"=bad) on statistics showing a rise in black-on-black murder during the same period, while simultaneously ignoring the advent of crack, the Drug War, and increases in violent crime all around. It's simply a poor argument.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Now, now, CSIfan...

The children will never amount to anything as long as they are "black." No matter how many violin lessons you teach them, or new words, or how many computers you put out there, they will still amount to nothing. Absolutely nothing.

They will always be bad, evil people, no matter what you do to help them, as they are "black."

Black, black, blackety black black black.

Son, ain't this something?

No wait, ain't this nothing?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
if you're opining on how disgusted you are with the black community,

I have no idea what you mean HH. Are you directing that at me?

I gave CSI Fan a for her great post and for DOING something. So where in that post to her did you see me 'disgusted with the black community'??

and you identify with it yourself,

Again, I have no idea what you mean HH. I dont' identify with much of anyone or anything (except America in general). So you've lost me here.

On second thought - wait .. never mind .. this thread has become not much more than a bash-fest. I'm seeing one line bash responses (against T&C) and just ridicule instead of discussion of the topic. I was reading (not posting) with interest ... and I appreciate your response to the wanting to be separate issue .... but I don't want to get dragged into this mess. A U2U response from you would be fine. Thanks.

[edit on 6/29/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I gave your mother (CSI Fan) a

for her great post and for DOING something. So where in that post to her did you see me 'disgusted with the black community'??

Thank you so very much for your recognition of my efforts. I truly appreciate it.

On second thought - wait .. never mind .. this thread has become not much more than a bash-fest. I'm seeing one line bash responses (against T&C) and just ridicule instead of discussion of the topic. I was reading (not posting) with interest ... and I appreciate your response to the wanting to be separate issue .... but I don't want to get dragged into this mess. A U2U response from you would be fine. Thanks.

I agree with you there, FF, this is a mess.
Yes, IMO the original post was "an accident waiting to happen".
Under the veil of a discussion about whether someone calls themselves black, or whatever, how could anyone deliberately inject such cruel things about children and others?

And, I was so shocked to see that others agreed.

Live and learn, I guess...

Originally posted by CSIfan
Honestly, BH, this is a topic I would never bring up with the children or the young adults. It's just hogwash, too crappy to even verbalize...honestly.

OK. I'm not saying it's your job or responsibility to bring it up with them. I understand that it's your opinion that it's a worthless subject.

I think 'what I am' or how I identify myself in my mind is an interesting and important subject. I have discussed this subject with my nieces around certain words and they seemed to get something out of it. So did I. I understood them better.

But I guess that's just hogwash.

I think your lectures are great. If you see this as a "crappy" line of thinking, don't pursue it. It's not your job anyway. I would think parents or family would discuss it with their kids.

I made everyone laugh by saying my name, that's what I like being called!

Great answer! There was a time in my life when I questioned whether I wanted to be a woman first or a human being first. I honestly didn't know which I identified with more. It's not what other people call me that matters (as I have said before), it's how I think of myself that's important to me in this context.

No silly conversations about what color anyone wants to be called.

Malign the idea as much as you want. Call it silly, crappy, hogwash, lunacy... You're very good at that, by the way. The fact remains that many people do have issues around how they identify themselves (not what other people call them). But you just go on thinking that it doesn't matter at all. Because I'm sure it doesn't matter to you.

Thanks, truthseeka for putting more words into my mouth that I didn't say. I knew you couldn't ignore me if you tried.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I'm a woman, and people see me as a woman. Am I doing a disservice to myself by identifying as a woman? Obviously not: it is what it is.

There seems to be a giant misunderstanding here. There's a difference between what other people call me and how I think of myself.

Let's look at some quotes from the original post:

Originally posted by SatansQue
But the root of this hatred, I believe, is inherent in the very words "Black" people use to describe themselves, and their culture.
...
"I am black" this is a small part of what that person is saying about his/herself,”
...
Because I never referred to myself as black.

Emphasis added.

What I took from the OP was the important issue here is not what other people call me, but how I refer to myself. How I identify myself. What I think of myself. That's what's important. NOT what other people call me or think of me.

Of course people see you as a woman and you think of yourself as a woman.

Wouldn't it seem weird if I told people not to describe me as a woman?

Yes. But it wouldn't be weird if you told other people that you don't think of yourself as a bitch. A word that has so many negative connotations in our language. The word "black" is associated with many negative things. I think that's all the OP is saying.

If you can manage NOT to have negative associations to the word, then great! Call yourself black. But I don't know that everyone can. Especially when you think about the baby dolls those little girls chose as the good baby and the bad baby.

This is my point in this thread.

You're right, this is a discussion board, but OTOH, if you're opining on how disgusted you are with the black community... What are you doing to help?

Cannot talking be helping? Doesn't the fact that we talk about this and communicate so well (you and I do, at least) indicate that we're doing something? If only to understand each other better and educate each other about how we think... to help see things from another perspective? Isn't that really an ultimate goal?

To put meaningful, educational discussion (which is what most of us are having) in the same category as dozing on the couch or doing nothing, is just incorrect, in my opinion. And to assume that because we're talking about it means we're not doing something is presumptuous and insulting to a degree.

And just so you know, I do stuff. I don't have to justify or catalog it to you or anyone else for approval. I have been very generous in my lifetime with my time and money to those in need and less fortunate. I used to be one. So to have that questioned kind of raises my hackles.


"Constant 'bashing'"?? He started a controversial thread and, according to my reading, lots more people have agreed with him that not.


Yeah, I was addressing those who were bashing, not those agreeing.

His point, imo, is overly- semantic and well into the realm of the ridiculous. It is not a good point. Actual "black" people have told him that it is not a good point.

Well, he is "black" and some who agree with him are "black", so is it possible that, while it may sound ridiculous to you, it has real meaning and worth to others? You're not suggesting that all black people have to agree on this point are you? Can it be meaningful to some and not to others?

Why make him (and me) out to be ridiculous, silly, crappy, whatever because it doesn't apply to you? Can't you just understand that while the word "black" may not carry negative connotations with you, it just might with other black people???

Identifying myself as a "white" person, some of the images that come into my mind are "pasty", "Congress", "skinhead", "redneck" (sorry, honey), "Britney", "elite"... Even though I know who I am, and I am not these things these words and thoughts come up. Is it so hard to imagine that thinking of one's self as "black" might conjure images of "criminal", "ho", "lazy" and others?

Thinking of myself as "black" does not make me lazy, stupid, or violent. How many times do I have to say it until people realize how silly it sounds?

No one is targeting you. No one is insisting that you think this way. And even if they are, they're probably wrong. But I have a strong suspicion that a lot of "black" people do. Even if it's so deep in their subconscious that they're not consciously aware of it.

It's simply a poor argument.

Well, your opinion means a lot to me and I understand where you're coming from. But I'm just not so sure it's a poor argument. I know it doesn't apply to you, but I'm not sure that everyone was raised as you were, instilled with certain self-assurance and feeling of pride and self-confidence in who you are. In fact, I'm pretty sure that a lot of "black" kids are raised to hate themselves.

And I think it's real important to talk about it.

[edit on 29-6-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

So, to recap...

Nothing but speculation about how calling oneself black affects them, with no stat analysis of the black population, based largely upon bad logic by the OP.

And there's wonder why some posters think this is trash...

I'd say more accurately... to recap...

Personal experience is once again being shunned and diminished in favor of some kind of "scholarly PROOF" that the OP's thoughts are valid. His thoughts and opinions are valid, even if 100% of the population doesn't agree or have the same experience as he does.

And you keep using the term "bad logic" but I must have missed where you explained just how his feelings and thoughts (and those of several other posters) are "bad logic".

And I don't wonder why some think it's trash. You disagree, it (supposedly) doesn't apply to you, so you think it's trash. You speak for the entire race. That's pretty clear.

This kind of thinking is so indicative of the mindset of especially this country today. If you disagree with my opinion, you're wrong, Your opinion is ridiculous, silly, crappy, hogwash, lunacy... trash. You're either with us or against us. You're on my team or the other team. If you have a problem with calling yourself "black", you must want to be "white".

No wonder there's so much division, even in the races. :shk:

There's a post a couple pages back where I explained the bad logic in the OP, especially absolute statements about black people.

I have never met a black American who didn't refer to themselves as black. So, between that and the OP, I can say that this is trash. And obviously, more posters agree with the OP; they are not black Americans. Big surprise.

But I have talked about how identifying one's self as "white" can have (and does have, for me) some of the same implications.

But I don't suppose that counts?

This is another situation where we can't have a race discussion because you take everything as an attack, and feel some need to attack back, when really, some of us are trying to come to a greater understanding.

It's almost like you like the division. Like you don't want to work to get rid of it unless everyone thinks like you and agrees with you.

You know what? That's fine. Really. Stay where you are. You're clearly comfortable there. Don't be open to these possibilities. Don't "take the OP seriously". But if you think so little of the idea, why must you crap on everyone who thinks differently about it? Why don't you go find a thread that you can ADD to instead of persisting in trying to make people who don't agree with you wrong?

I understand stating your opinion, but you've been one of the most active people in this thread and you have NOT ONE additive thing to say, except to bolster those who agree with you.

You have no room for the possibility that some black people might have an issue with the word, even though some people posting here are black and agree with the OP. Are you trying to be a total drag and totally disrupt the thought process and chase everyone else away till it's just me and you again?

I just don't get why you cannot let people have their opinions without resorting to childish sniping.

I hope there isn't a young black person out there reading this and identifying with the OP, but feeling ashamed and confused about it, because your persistent shaming and denigration would just solidify his self-hatred.

You clearly aren't seeking the truth. In your view, you've already found it.

This guy called all black people, including myself, crazy. THAT is an attack. He didn't say that the black people who perpetrated violence on Juneteenth were crazy; he said ALL black Americans are crazy. And of course, many agreed with him.

If some black people feel that way, that's all good. But the OP has used bad logic to paint all black people as this way. It doesn't fly, but again, that doesn't matter, so long as there is criticism of black people.

I'm not stopping anyone from having an opinion. And no one is stopping me from thinking this opinion is bunk.



[edit on 29-6-2007 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by truthseeka
This guy called all black people, including myself, crazy.... And of course, many agreed with him.

OK, thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it.

Just so you and everyone are clear, I don't think all black people are crazy.

Thanks for your response.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you can manage NOT to have negative associations to the word, then great!

Call yourself black. But I don't know that everyone can. Especially when you think about the baby dolls those little girls chose as the good baby and the bad baby.

I CAN manage not to have negative associations to the word, because I know the source of the negatives and I reject them as stereotypes invented to justify slavery.

If I could undo the worldwide propaganda campaigns of the Metro/Goldwyn/Mayers of this world and their efforts (1900's) to dehumanize a people (on screen) who were barely a generation from slavery, if I could undo the nasty words in music produced by Zach Horowitz and his ilk, if I could undo the disgusting effect that slavery and poverty has had on my people, including the systematic denial of education for hundreds of years, then the doll experiment could probably have different results.

These are the acts, which if undone, would have prevented the negative feelings described by the OP. The word "black" is only a word.

But, unfortunately, I cannot undo what these animals have done to my people. I can only hope that everyone understands that the depravity that exists in this world does not come from the word "black".

The doll experiment is interesting in that, no matter the background of a child, personal preference will prevail...there are no absolutes, or do you think that little black girls should always choose the black doll? The girls may be black, but they are still people, people with preferences.

Suppose we use the experiment with little white girls and show them two white dolls, one with blonde hair and the other doll with brown hair. Which doll will the little white girls choose and why? What would their choices say about how they react to the images fed to them...and how they feel about themselves?

And just so you know, I do stuff.

I don't have to justify or catalog it to you or anyone else for approval. I have been very generous in my lifetime with my time and money to those in need and less fortunate. I used to be one.

So to have that questioned kind of raises my hackles.

I didn't mean to infer that you didn't help the needy, but do keep in mind that we are all "the needy"...remember Barbara said that "people who need people are the luckiest people in the world"! lol

I am needy in that I need to do what I do. I need to speak of and "catalog" it. It's personal to me. People need to know that there are many people in disadvantaged communities who are working to undo the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the abovelisted culprits. There will take millions of us, probably hundreds of years, to undo what these people have done, not just to black people, but to people all over the world.

Do you ever wonder why African children, children of the continent of diamonds, gold, platinum and many other resources must depend on feeding programs and food drops to survive, and their parents can't buy medicines to save their lives? I wonder sometimes why the middle eastern countries who have oil must constantly fight off invaders who constantly destroy their infrastructures and attempt to appoint puppet dictators?

What color describes the diamond thieves and invaders?

Oh, never mind. It's not worth it.

I get your message. It's nothing new.



[edit on 30-6-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]