I blame religion.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Of course, here's also this "dark ages", the ones they want to teach about in school

In, reality, I don't see Christianinty as the cause of the dark ages.

Yes, in response to what you said I was talking about something else. The Dark ages produced no literary works of their time and ended up getting out of that drowt (sp) by producing the renaissance, I am saying that the dark ages were a time when they focused fundementally only on religion and that's what you learn in school. They didn't think what people told them to be true if the Church didn't tell them it already.


Mod Edit: Trim Those Quotes

[edit on 14-5-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I didn't say that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine,

Yes you did, almost word for word…

Who cares about external sources? Those texts were made to fit the times that advanced and then as time advanced they completely changed the story about how he created the Christian religion. They fitted text in order to resume worship. They also made evangalicalists teach people to worship people and that the text could fit all of the times. Those texts mean nothing because the stories behind that have been fabricated and been changed throughout time.


Mod Edit: Trim Those Quotes

[edit on 14-5-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Those texts were made to fit the times that advanced and then as time advanced they completely changed the story about how he created the Christian religion. They fitted text in order to resume worship. They also made evangalicalists teach people to worship people and that the text could fit all of the times. Those texts mean nothing because the stories behind that have been fabricated and been changed throughout time.

Absolutely the most incorrect thing I believe I have ever read on this website. Are you just making this up as you go, to play devils advocate, and run up a big thread here? The whole significance of them finding scrolls such as those of Qumran or the Muratorian Fragment, are that they show us exactly how closely the scripture has remained to its original message. The Church has not changed anything in those texts and this can be proven.

Also, since the Roman Catholic Church was abusing the interpretation of the texts during Luther’s day, they obviously did not have to ability to change what was in the texts. If they had that ability, then they would have beat Luther in court and he would have been sentenced to death by the inquisition. In addition, the reason that the Church kept the texts in Latin so long as they did, was so the common person could not see how broadly they were stretching their interpretations. Again if they had the ability to change the content of the texts, they would have done that rather then keep the book away from the public at large.

Your theory has more holes then Cheese Cloth, I am afraid to say.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Who cares about external sources?

I am mainly quoting from historical sources, not religious ones, so they are about as valid as you can get. I am sorry if it shoots holes in your “I hate Christianity” agenda, and theory.

BTW you should not re-quote the whole post of others, it eats up server space and tends to bring down the wrath of the mods.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Defcon, in regards to gnosticism, you are taking a pretty fundamentalist mentality. You seem to imply that anything that does not fall directly in line with what the CHURCH says is wrong. I disagree.

How is showing you that someone who was second generation trained in the scripture, from Christ himself, and fought against the Gnosis, having a fundamentalist mentality? I am sorry if it scrapes against your beliefs, but it’s a fact, like it or not. Gnosis was a cult that sprung up within some sects of Christianity AFTER the church already existed, and it has no grounds in the Message of Christ. It is therefore NOT Christian.

I am mainly quoting from historical sources, not religious ones, so they are about as valid as you can get. I am sorry if it shoots holes in your “I hate Christianity” agenda, and theory.

Hmm... so you're claiming that I am trying to "run" a thread when I am merely stating what I believe in, that's where you are wrong. If you truly cared about your religion of Christianity you would see that people believe in two things, that the person of Christ, believed that he was the Son of God, but there were also people who never believed that he meant to create another religion.

I am arguing this on a neutral standpoint. It did bring about the dark ages in the middle ages because they were too focused on religious stuff and they ended a 500 year drought with the renaissance, if you're so oblivious to history, maybe you should read a history book and see how roman emperors used Christianity as an excuse to invade foreign territories.

Plus-- there is NO PROOF, NO PROOF THAT IT WAS CALLED CHRISTIANITY BACK THEN, if a religion was born 80 years after the birth of its savior, don't you think that the date was exagerrated to be of a later date than you think it started?

Plus-- many of the texts of Christianity say that December 25 is Christ's birthday, if that is so, how do they know his birthday a few hundred years later?

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRISTIANITY DID NOT EXIST BEFORE CONSTANTINE, JUST WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT IT WAS NOT WHAT CHIRSTIANITY is called today.

Plus, I am saying that a lot of the texts on the internet are false, and I do not believe anything on the net, so please use sources from real books. The internet can create lots of hoaxes, so please don't use internet sources with me.

Besides, you said that he said he was fulfilling the prophecy, however, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

I did not say that the Christian religion didn't exist, all I said was that it didn't exist in the form it is in today. Just stop scewing my wording.

SpeakerofTruth re posted on 13-5-2007 @ 04:21 PM (ID:3189829, Post Number: 3,089,939).

All due respect to your thoughts before the above post.
Christian, Jews and Muslims don't matter anymore I feel.
Some thing's going to happen and the twisted Murderers are not going to care who is who, ie religion. It's a different world now and all power from the main players has to consider ( though they are already) execute the pwr as a mater of survival. Hopefully the possible plan can be on hold until after the next US Presidential Election?

Respectfully,
Dallas

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Just stop scewing my wording.

I don’t believe that I am intentionally doing anything to your wording, I am writing this to the best of my understanding of what you have written.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
so you're claiming that I am trying to "run" a thread when I am merely stating what I believe in, that's where you are wrong.

However when you put something here in writing thats incorrect, and the error is pointed out to you, then you change the wording and say you meant something else, that smells of a style of debate tactic used to win even after what was stated is proved to be wrong.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
f you truly cared about your religion of Christianity you would see that people believe in two things, that the person of Christ, believed that he was the Son of God, but there were also people who never believed that he meant to create another religion.

This is partly correct and partly incorrect. While Christ’s original intended target audience was in fact the Jews, he knew that was not going to happen on a large scale and his main target audience would end up being goyhim’s (gentiles). As I have shown above he was to be the stone that the builders rejected, meaning he would never be fully accepted by the majority of his own people.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
It did bring about the dark ages in the middle ages because they were too focused on religious stuff and they ended a 500 year drought with the renaissance,

I was not involved in your debate of the dark ages, that was another poster.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
if you're so oblivious to history,

While I may not be a history major, I am fairly well versed in history, especially church history.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
maybe you should read a history book and see how roman emperors used Christianity as an excuse to invade foreign territories.

This was strictly the Roman Catholic Church who was responsible for this. This is part of the reason why I am not a Roman Catholic, why I have posted on this board many times that the RCC did terrible damage to Christianity, and why I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Fourth Beast in Daniel, the First Beast in Revelations, and the Whore of Babylon. Other Christian sects certainly did not engage in this type of behavior. As the Crusades did not begin until 1095, after the Great Schism, the Orthodox Church was certainly not a part of went on there, and the Orthodox Church has the oldest claim to Christianity of any of the other Churches. Constantine’s wars were in Europe: Gaul, the Rhine, and the UK, certainly not in the Middle East, maybe you should read a history book yourself.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Plus-- there is NO PROOF, NO PROOF THAT IT WAS CALLED CHRISTIANITY BACK THEN, if a religion was born 80 years after the birth of its savior, don't you think that the date was exagerrated to be of a later date than you think it started?

As you will not accept the text of the actual Bible, perhaps you’ll accept a third party source: Flavius Josephus…

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63

Written in 93AD, 187 years before Constantine lived, and you can go buy a copy of this text at any local bookstore. It’s the book which the story of Masada is recorded as well. His “Antiquities of the Jews” is an excellent source to better understand the books of the Old Testament written by Moses. Very well written, very well explained, and filled with additional insights, i give it:

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Plus-- many of the texts of Christianity say that December 25 is Christ's birthday, if that is so, how do they know his birthday a few hundred years later?

There is not a single text, which mentions December 25 as the birth of Christ. Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, which was celebrated by feasts, festivals, and orgies. It has been banned many times throughout history, and was not allowed in the US by the original protestant settlers. I don’t have the exact dates, but much later in history it was turned into the birth of Christ, and canonized as such by the Roman Catholic Church. It still was not accepted in the US until much later.

The fact of the matter is, that it’s widely known to be only a tradition, and not a factual birth date. The Shepard’s did not tend their flocks of sheep, in the fields, in December, in the Middle East, but rather in the spring or fall. I thought everyone already knew this, its nothing new.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
NEVER SAID THAT CHRISTIANITY DID NOT EXIST BEFORE CONSTANTINE, JUST WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT IT WAS NOT WHAT CHIRSTIANITY is called today.

As both Flavius Josephus, who was present at the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem, and Luke companion of Paul the writer of Acts of the Apostles, have both stated, you are incorrect in this assessment. BTW, bit of a flash back to one of my earlier posts, Acts was actually one of the first books chosen by Irenaeus.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Plus, I am saying that a lot of the texts on the internet are false, and I do not believe anything on the net, so please use sources from real books.

Sorry, I was not able to bring my entire library of books into work with me here tonight, so you’ll have to live with online sources. Besides, the sources I have chosen have been of much higher caliber then the one you posted in the OP. Again, I am sorry this is not working out your way, but to place unreasonable constraints on others, which even you yourself did not follow, is dirty pool. However, I really don’t need to use sources.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Besides, you said that he said he was fulfilling the prophecy, however, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

I am not sure what your saying sometimes. It seems like as you are shown points are incorrect you change them and say you really meant this or that instead.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I did not say that the Christian religion didn't exist, all I said was that it didn't exist in the form it is in today.

The message of it is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Now some groups may interpret things slightly differently then others, but the message remains intact.

Maverickhunter,

Defcon5 has it pretty much outlined. THis is the Church history of which also I know.

You like so many others use the Roman Catholic Church and the stranglehold that the RCC has on the world to illustrate all of Christianity and religion. THat the RCC automatically by default is all of Christianity. This is not true and never was true. It is still not true today.

What Defcon 5 points out and you seem wont to miss about history is that The people of God always in this world were a minority people and still are a minority people.
The Hebrews of the Olde Testament were a minority people surrounded by nations which did not like them. They were never the majority ...ever.
They were ,however, ..eventually infiltrated and even took on the beliefs and practices of the nations surrounding them. The very thing they were told not to do in thier instructions from God to Moses.

One of these things not to do is not to celebrate birthdays..this is a day of self glorification. This is considered very bad practice in both Christianity and the Law of Moses...you see no such instruction to do so. You do however see this practice among the pagans. Birthidays are a pagan custom ..it was never a Christian custom.

This takes care of Christmas...in toto.

There are Beleivers out here who do not celebrate birthdays or Christmas. I am one of them. Once I learned and Believed that this history and traditon were contrary to what is Truth...I gave all this up. It greatly simplifys my life.

I live very close to Colonial Williamsburg and the Jamestown settlement of 1607 fame.
It is quite obvious, though they are wont to historically cover this up, that the early colonialists did not celebrate christmas and knew it was pagan in origins.
Our phoney news and information media today are wont to conceal this by transmitting informations that "This is how we think the early colonialists decorated thier homes for christmas."
Astonishing how little thinking is going on out there even by college trained peoples.

All days are the same to me...all days belong to my Lord.

Those points on which you are wont to dwell are moot to me. They simply dont apply. I know others who do this very same thing....not practicing the traditions of this world.

Most organized churchs do not teach this history as it would stifle church attendence. I believe this is something that should be taught to people. It wouldnt make much difference to most but there would be a minority who would be able to grasp the significance of this. Once again ..this is not to the majoritiy of the people out here but the minority who are Believers.

To Believe....to be Living.

Not just to be alive..but to be Living..in Life..with a capital L.

What you actually have out here Maverickhunter is alot of churchs who have been seduced into the appearence of being Christian when in fact and practice they are not ..just as was the pattern with the Hebrews of Ancient times.

This does not mean that Gods people are not out here..they are.

This is one of the sins of Israel. It is also the reason the candlestick was removed from them resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem of which Defcon 5 quotes from the book of the Antiquities of the Jews and the Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus. I have this book in my private collection. It is a very fascinating account of the destruction of Jerusalem by the General Titus in 70 AD.
This too is a very covered up piece of history to most peoples today. They know little or nothing about it.

The RCC does not automatically represent Christianity by default I notice this very fingerprint in Time magazine when speaking of Christianity..they automatically use the RCC to speak for all Christians...they dont speak for me.

THe RCC was not the only church historically carrying on in this manner....the Anglican Church was also killing Christians and others not of thier approval. You can find this fingerprint in a little known book on this history called

Foxes Book of Martyrs. John Foxe

This is one source for tracing the history of the Christian Church...by the trail of those who persecuted her.

Something else historically for you to consider...in the Pagan nations..especially those highly orgainzed...they kept large surviving records of thier conquests and persecutions of other nations.

This is not a fingerprint of Christian Churchs. They have no such instruction. Thier buisness is the flock and the history of the flock
They keep only such records as concerns the flock.
Births , Baptisms,Marriages, children born , and deaths. These are recorded in church records and family bibles.

There are no such instructions to record conquerings and dealings with governments to go out and conquer. This is not Christianity ...it is politics. And politics of this type has its origins in Paganism..where the church and state are united.
By the way..this also means that under this united fingerprint..the politicians are also part of the religion..and practicing this religion. They are part of the priesthood. WE dont often think of professional politicans as a priesthood but they certianly are. You can tell this clearly by the devoutness and zealousness of many fo the political partys. It is a religon and they will sleep with anyone to get and maintain such power.

YOu do understand that such sexual mischief is also a fingerprint of Paganism...yes?? You find this fingerprint among many throughout Pagan history if you know where and how to look.

Just a few pointers about what is missing from much of our view and knowlege of history.

Keep up the Faith and the good work Defcon 5.
May the God of our fathers watch over you and your house.

Thanks,
Orangetom

You blame religion for all the bad stuff huh? What about greed, corruption, and politics? Religion has been used as justification for the actions people have taken, but the underlying cause, the true reason, is always greed.

BTW, Jews and Muslims would still fight if Christianity had never existed and the Holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity.

and Constantine did not write the new testament; he oversaw its compilation. All the priests got together and argued and altered books and eventually came up with a standardization of what should and shouldn't be in the Bible.

Don't blame religion, blame humans.

reply to post by avingard


just a question for you: why did hitler talk so much about jesus? why did the nazis have "god is with us" on their belt buckles?

oh, and another thing... why not blame inherently violent, exclusionary, repressive, and oppressive belief systems?

Religion is a Prison for the Seekers of Wisdom