I blame religion.

The United States is advancing its own political agenda based on what Constantine wrote a few hundred years ago. If it weren't for what Constantine wrote a couple of hundred years ago none of this were to happen, the new testimant wouldn't have created the religion Christianity, Arabs and Jews would be able to live in peace, and also, people would have been able to understand each other. Instead Constantine wrote a doctrine for political gain and wrote his own version of the new testimant

It also includes proofs about the New Testament was written in the 3rd century by Constantine and his church by their own words. It wasn't written by Jesus and his original Disciples.

Source: www.answering-christianity.com...

So therefore, Christians cannot argue about religion and prove their religion to be true because an emperor wrote it. Back then, people thought of emperors as "gods" so therefore what they said went, and he wrote a book, called the new testimant, and wanted his say. So therefore, they abided by his laws and he made it for political gain and to expand the holy roman emperor.

If you want to argue all you want about the truths of Christianity go ahead, but it was made by someone else, and people are blindingly believing in Christianity, even though it was not called Christianity, even when the person called "jesus" was alive. It was called Christianity around the time Constantine was in power.

All this person "jesus" wanted to do was make a branch of Judiasm, but they didn't listen, and hundreds of years later they used it as an excuse to drastically rewrite the history of the world and make a new religion to expand their interests throughout the world and make excuses for world tragedies. (I.e- hitler's genocide of the jews, The crusades, and the expansion of the Spaniards and the English, and the manifest destiny to conquer surrounding lands around the original 13 colonies).

However, we can learn from this, because the religion of Christianity brought upon the Dark ages of Europe, and people knew nothing but what the bible told them back then. People can certainly learn from their mistakes.

Do I hate christianity? No, I dislike all religions, they were all made as a system of control, and it isn't just Christianity.

Constantine didn't live a couple hundred years ago, he lived almost 1700 years ago. Constantine oversaw the the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

I personally have no respect for Constantine or what he did to the teachings of Jesus Christ, but that is a whole other subject.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Christianity existed long before Constantine converted and decided to make it the Church of Rome. Even without Constantine we would still have Byzantium and the gnostic Christianities.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Christianity existed long before Constantine converted and decided to make it the Church of Rome. Even without Constantine we would still have Byzantium and the gnostic Christianities.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

It wasn't called Christianity before Constantine wrote the new testimant, before Constantine wrote the new testament what it was called was Judiasm. Lots of people thought that Christ was the new messiah because he said he was the son of god so they dedicated a work to him and said that because he sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind, that everyone was saved. It doesn't really reflect on peoples beliefs back then and he made a lot of people believe in him by doing that so I don't know if the descriptions by Constantine are accurate or not.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Even without Constantine we would still have Byzantium and the gnostic Christianities.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

What, Constantine is one of the main persecuters of Gnosticism!! Constantitne had absolutely nothing but abhorrence for Gnosticism,which is one of the reasons that I have no use for him.

I think it all depends on what books you read and how you interprete those events. For me the start of the Christian belief system is much earlier than the founding of the Roman Church which is what Constantine's conversion represents. Have you not heard of the Constantine Schism? Both the Jews and the Christians are believed to share common ancenstry with the Zoroastrian faith. The carriers of Christianity and Judiasm settled in anatolia and it can be no coincidence that the Gnostic wisdom of Sofia can be found in the name of what is believed to be one of the earliest existing Christian churches Agia Sophia. And similarly in the naming of the Valley and city of Sofia in Bulgaria. Have you heard of the Bogomils and Cathars?

Of course Constantine hated the gnostics, this goes without saying, but I do not see how that implies that the gnostics could not be christian.

Christianity, Orthodoxy, can be traced back to AD59 in India by some accounts and the coptics AD42. Now in both cases these churches were said to have been started by the apostles Thomas and John respectively, so I would say that could qualify them as christian. Constantine was born in 280AD. In my opinion that disqualifies him from founding christianity.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Of course Constantine hated the gnostics, this goes without saying, but I do not see how that implies that the gnostics could not be christian.

Oh,oh,I get what you are saying. The Gnostics, at least in my opinion, were Christian. they were the original Christians, in my opinion. I misunderstood you somewhere. Sorry.

I take it you believe that the Council of Nicaea wrote the Bible.
Sorry, that is not true, but rather gained much popularity due to the movie and book “The Da Vinci Code”. The Council of Nicaea was concerned with eliminating the heresy of Arianism and creating the Nicaean Creed. This is the reason why the Nicaean Creed is very specific on this point:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

As the argument of Arianism was that Christ was not the same as God, but was a created being.

As to Constantine even being a Christian, that is arguable. If he ever truly accepted it at all, it was much, much later in his life, for the majority of his life he remained a Pagan. The oldest version of the New Testiment which has been found to date would be the Muratorian Fragment, which is dated to 170AD, a good 155 years before the Council of Nicaea and 110 years before Constantine was even born.

Quoting a bunch of Gnostic, and incorrect stuff from some crazy anti-christian website is not what I would consider a good source for this type of information. Besides all of this other error, even if Christianity did not exist as such, the Jews would still be fighting with the Muslims, and the Muslims with each other.

Originally posted by defcon5
Quoting a bunch of Gnostic, and incorrect stuff from some crazy anti-christian website is not what I would consider a good source for this type of information. Besides all of this other error, even if Christianity did not exist as such, the Jews would still be fighting with the Muslims, and the Muslims with each other.

So you are equating Gnostics with anti-Christians,eh?

As far as Jews and Mulims fighting, I don't know where you get the idea that I implied that Christianity was at fault for that. The Jews and Muslims have been fighting since the inception of Islam and even before there was conflict between Jews and Arabs, so, you are right that Christianity has little to do with it.

No, Constantine didn't "write the bible," where idid I imply that he did? But, to say that he did not play a role in deciding what was to be the Canon of Christianity is a fallacy.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I misunderstood you somewhere. Sorry.

No problem I could have been clearer.

All the best

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
So you are equating Gnostics with anti-Christians,eh?

Do Gnostics accept the divinity of Christ? Do they accept the fundamental teaching in redemption through the death of Christ on the Cross for the forgiveness of sin? If the answer to these two questions is no, then they do not fit the description of Christian in the traditional sense. Hence the fact they are called Gnostics, and not Christians or Gnostic Christians.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
As far as Jews and Mulims fighting, I don't know where you get the idea that I implied that Christianity was at fault for that.
No, Constantine didn't "write the bible," where idid I imply that he did?

I believe I was referring to the OP, not to you.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
But, to say that he did not play a role in deciding what was to be the Canon of Christianity is a fallacy.

Folks such as Irenaeus were far more instrumental in choosing the cannon. Most were officially canonized after his reign, but as I stated above there were other instances of the Bible in various forms around. Show me one book which was added or canonized by Constantine?

Originally posted by defcon5
Do Gnostics accept the divinity of Christ? Do they accept the fundamental teaching in redemption through the death of Christ on the Cross for the forgiveness of sin? If the answer to these two questions is no,

I think you are alluding to pagan gnostics rather than Christian Gnostics, there is a difference.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I think you are alluding to pagan gnostics rather than Christian Gnostics, there is a difference.

Alternatively, are you referring to the Orthodox Church? The Orthodox Church most likely holds the claim to being to Oldest of all the Christian Churches. All the other current sects of Christianity can trace their roots back to the Orthodox Church at some point in history, as they came from schisms from the Roman Catholic Church, which schism’ed from the Orthodoxy during the Great Schism.

[edit on 5/13/2007 by defcon5]

I didn't say that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine, but that it wasn't called Christianity before then. Because someone follows a set of rules for their religion differently than others do doesn't mean that they were following a different religion. Plus, they didn't call it Christianity then, and Christ was born Jewish. So therefore, he wanted it to be a Jewish religion, but they later called it Christianity, he did not want anything from his teachings and what he got changed the human race. Additionally, if Christ ever existed, he must have been moved by something which caused him to spread his teachings everywhere. It was kind of like how Luther made the protestant religion and now more and more people are Protestants instead of Catholics, like how before the person Christ, if he existed, wanted people to break away from the traditional orthadox views of Judiasm, and to write the new testament, the newer version of it.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I didn't say that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine, but that it wasn't called Christianity before then.

Actually Christians were first called Christians before Constantine.

Acts 11:26 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Originally posted by arius

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I didn't say that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine, but that it wasn't called Christianity before then.

Actually Christians were first called Christians before Constantine.

Acts 11:26 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

You missed the point of what I said. I was saying that the new testament being written didn't create Christianity, and that these Christian sects weren't called sects before, and were really part of Judiasm back then. They weren't called Christians until years later when they found a name for it.

As Maverick is quoting from a Gnostic source, and Speaker is telling us how Gnosticism was the original Church, I would like to mention something else about Gnosticism and the early Church.

Irenaeus, who I mentioned before received his training from Polycarp, who received his religious training from John the Apostle, who received his training from Jesus Christ himself. So I think we can conclude that Irenaeus knew far better then we do, thousands of years later, what the intended message of Christ was. Considering that he had this training, what was the most famous of Irenaeus’ writings?

On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis, also known as “Against Heresies”.

The purpose of Against Heresies was to refute the teachings of various Gnostic groups; apparently, several Greek merchants had begun an oratorial campaign praising the pursuit of "gnosis" in Irenaeus' bishopric. Another popular theory states that a group of Gnostics known as the Valentinians remained part of the early Christian church, taking part in regular church celebrations despite their radical differences. It is also said that Gnostics would secretly meet outside of regular church activity where they would discuss their "secret knowledge" and scripture that pertains to it. As bishop, Irenaeus felt obligated to keep a close eye on the Valentinians and to safeguard the church from them. In order to fulfil this duty, Irenaeus educated himself and became well informed of Gnostic doctrines and traditions.[4] This eventually led to the compilation of his treatise.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
However, we can learn from this, because the religion of Christianity brought upon the Dark ages of Europe, and people knew nothing but what the bible told them back then. People can certainly learn from their mistakes.

I doubt that.

The Dark Ages were, in fact, dark.
curious.astro.cornell.edu...

It is true that there was a steep drop in the population of Europe in the mid-6th century, a timeframe that coincides with what is commonly referred to as "the Dark Ages" (a period of time spanning several centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, from which there are few historical records of events in Europe). Most of this was due to a plague that is widely believed to be an earlier occurence of the Bubonic plague that struck Europe again in the 14th century, but there's also some evidence that there was some global cooling going on at that time. This would have led to lower crop yields, and caused the population to drop further.

gchbryant.tripod.com...

"The Sun...seems to have lost its wonted light, and appears of a bluish colour. We marvel to see no shadows of our bodies at noon, to feel the mighty vigour of the Sun's heat wasted into feebleness, and the phenomena which accompany an eclipse prolonged through almost a whole year. We have had a summer without heat. The crops have been chilled by north winds, [and] the rain is denied."

And, lastly, my personal favorite reason for the "dark ages"
perdurabo10.tripod.com...


Of course, here's also this "dark ages", the ones they want to teach about in school
In, reality, I don't see Christianinty as the cause of the dark ages.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I didn't say that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine,

Yes you did, almost word for word…

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
If it weren't for what Constantine wrote a couple of hundred years ago none of this were to happen, the new testimant wouldn't have created the religion Christianity, Arabs and Jews would be able to live in peace, and also, people would have been able to understand each other. Instead Constantine wrote a doctrine for political gain and wrote his own version of the new testimant

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Plus, they didn't call it Christianity then, and Christ was born Jewish. So therefore, he wanted it to be a Jewish religion, but they later called it Christianity, he did not want anything from his teachings and what he got changed the human race.

It was predicted well before the time of Christ that he would be “the stone the builders rejected”, thus he knew full well that most Jews would not accept Christianity. Some did, and some still do to this day. The ones who do are known as the “first fruits” in Revelations, the 144,000. The rest were to be Gentiles who accepted the message of Christ. This was why the second temple was destroyed, it was a sign from God that it was the end of the “Age of the Jews” and the beginning of the “Age of the Church”, again prophesized before Christ was ever born.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Additionally, if Christ ever existed, he must have been moved by something which caused him to spread his teachings everywhere.

Christ knew his mission obviously from a very early age, as we see him debating with Rabbi’s in the scripture by age 12.

Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
It was kind of like how Luther made the protestant religion and now more and more people are Protestants instead of Catholics,

Luther’s intention was not to cause a schism in the Church, but to reform the Church. This is why it’s called the Protestant Reformation. It was Rome, who refused to admit their inaccurate teaching of the time, which they knew was wrong, and caused the Schism. Luther was exonerated in a court of law in Germany, called the Diet of Worms, which stated he was correct in his teaching and was not to be turned over to the inquisition.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
wanted people to break away from the traditional orthadox views of Judiasm, and to write the new testament, the newer version of it.

Christ did not come to change the Jewish law, or make a new one, but to fulfill it. He stated this himself.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
I was saying that the new testament being written didn't create Christianity, and that these Christian sects weren't called sects before, and were really part of Judiasm back then. They weren't called Christians until years later when they found a name for it

The original Apostles were Jewish as well as many of the original followers, but a non-Jew (Goyim) can never fully become a Jew unless born one, so it was also intended to be a religion for the Gentiles. As I said above it was known that many of the Jews would reject the Messiah when he arrived as it had been previously prophesied.

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

As mentioned by Arius they were called Christians well before the Church gave us that name, as mentioned its in the Book of Acts, the actual term used is:

Χριστιανός
Christianos
khris-tee-an-os'
From G5547; a Christian, that is, follower of Christ: - Christian

Defcon, in regards to gnosticism, you are taking a pretty fundamentalist mentality. You seem to imply that anything that does not fall directly in line with what the CHURCH says is wrong. I disagree.