aerosol attack chemtrail evidence

Oh I think they did look at it, but then chose to disregard it because it doesnt fit into their chemtrail conspiracy.

the average altitude for a commercial flight is 35,000 to 39,000

Actually jets usually cruise from 25000 feet all the way upto 45000 feet.

commercial airliners MUST keep a certain distance from each other, should they be commercial they are FAR to close

Have you heard of diferant altitudes? Last time I checked they need atleast 1000 feet of vertical seperation between planes

these planes are approaching each other at an angle, they are not vertical.

what evidence supports ice crystals lingering and appearing like chemtrails/contrails? i have looked and cannot find any.

They are vertically seperated by atleast 1000 feet, though they may not look like it as they are very high up.

Do you think these are about to colide?
www.airliners.net...

Also what evidence DOESN'T support normal Contrails from persistant? Meteorology? No.

...a contrail is formed from the heat from the jet engine, and only leaves a trail for a few SECONDS

Well maybe if you looked up and new some Meteorology you would know that CONtrails can last a very very long time....

Did An Airline Mechanic Stumble Upon The Truth?
(Note - We cannot confirm the following statement but the implications are enormous, and we expect there will be serious efforts to investigate and evaluate these allegations quickly. -ed.)....

www.ufos-aliens.co.uk...

That could of been written in 5 minutes by any idiot wishing to create a hoax.

REAL PROOF OF CHEMTRAILS ANYONE? WHY CANNOT CONTRAILS PERSIST?

If ice crystals can only last a short time, then how do we get snowfall?

ok ......i cant believe this entire thread is the same old stuff brought up yet again !!!!!!.


for those people who dont understand the physics involved in formation of contrails including persistant ones here is a study undertaken by DERA (defence evaluation and research agency) for the Dept of Enviroment Transport and the Regions here in the UK, it was completed in Sept 2000.

www.ozone-sec.ch.cam.ac.uk...

PLEASE take the time to read this as it explains how and why contrails sometimes spread out and sometimes dont.

here is a snippet:

Contrail persistance is primarily linked to synoptic conditions that support vertical motions of air,such as frontal zones connected with the warm sectoer of lows,jet streams that carry moist air across stable highs , and flows induced by mountain waves.Under these conditions the relative humidity may exceed ice saturation,promoting growth of the contrail crystals. Contrail ice crystal spreading may be induced by vertical wind shear,especially in contrails with a large vertical extent caused by updrafts driven by radiative heating.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ok and for those people who dont realise there are roads in the sky that jets stick to ,here are some maps of jetways over the UK.

www....(nolink)/?1wtzggzjq3m
www....(nolink)/?1wtzggzjq3m

www....(nolink)/?8mmndionogh
www....(nolink)/?8mmndionogh


hope this helps , if anyone wants more info let me know as we are currently conducting new research based on the 2000 study but more in depth analysis of the effects on regional and global climate.

snoopyuk

Just as an exercise, let's assume that chemtrails actually do exist, and working from that assumption, let's see who has to be part of the conspiracy.

Assuming that your spray solution doesn't weigh any more than water, and that your chemtrail-laying aircraft has about the same capacity as a Cessna 188 (a popular agricultural sprayer), you're talking about 2,336 lbs just for the solution. That's over a ton of disposable weight. A Boeing 757 (freight variant) has a maximum takeoff weight of 255,000 lbs, so the spray solution alone represents almost 1% of the total max weight for the plane. That's a lot of 'after market' bling to hang on a commercial jet, so we have to assume that the designers at Boeing are part of the conspiracy, along with designers at Lockheed.

The assembly-line workers have to be part of the conspiracy too, since a spray rig is a fairly obvious thing to build, and somebody's going to ask questions.

The maintenance crews have to be in on the deal, because *somebody* has to fix the equipment.

The cockpit crews have to be in on it as well...I can guarantee you that they're going to notice the changes in trim when a plane gets that much lighter. In fact, *every* cockpit crew of *every( airliner is going to have to be part of the conspiracy...otherwise, they'd be asking questions over very public airwaves about why Delta 225 is suddenly throwing smoke from the wings.

The air traffic controllers are part of the cover-up, too...there's no way they're going to not notice all those odd flight patterns, grids, ovals, and Eqyptian Heiroglyphics traced out by chemtrail-spraying planes.

Most of the FAA would have to be in on things, but they're part of The Gub'mint, so that's not a surprise.

At least one chemical company would have to be in on this too, since somebody has to actually make and transport whatever is being sprayed.

At a conservative estimate, we're well over the 100,000 people mark so far, and they're all keeping the secret. That's about 99,999 more people than can normally keep a secret.

Moving along, let's even assume that this vast web of secrecy actually exists, and look at what's being sprayed, and why it's being sprayed. Most of the chemtrail believers I hear / read think that the spraying is either some form of population control (either in the literal sense of reducing population, or in the more esoteric sense of controlling the minds / actions of the population) or some form of atmospheric modification. Oddly enough, the altitudes used by commercial jets don't sit well with either notion. 25,000 - 45,000 feet is FAR too high to perform effective ground spraying. Your spray will be too diffuse, and far too prone to blow off target. There's a *reason* crop dusters fly low, folks, and it's not adrenaline. It's also too low to have a very serious impact on the atmosphere. It's below most of the ozone layer, it's below most of the mass of the atmosphere, which means it's not an effective zone to attempt climate modification.

In short, Chemtrails require (at least as far as I can tell) too many people and too much effort for a very inefficient method of doing anything.

And just because every conspiracy thread these days needs a nifty photo...




CHEMTRAILS OVER GERMANY!!

For all you well paid deflectors and dismissers explain to me that if CHEMTRAILS don't exist why are school children being taught about them?


www.willthomas.net...


You may have to consult a supervisor to come up with the appropriate spin. Good luck!

Well paid? You must have consulted the conspiracy reply handbook to come up with that one. Its pretty old, find a new comeback.

To say that children are being taught about chemtrails is a quite the stretch, its already been covered in a previous thread.

Dont be such a sheep for whatever you read on some chemtrail site.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Yeah, I love that story. It makes great bedtime reading. You HONESTLY believe that they're going to use COMMERCIAL planes to spray things? There are hundreds of military planes they would be using if they were doing this on any kind of scale. Military planes wouldn't be sitting in the open where anyone could see the spraying equipment while sitting in the terminal waiting to board.

if it is their desire for secrecy, then yes they would use planes that look commercial airliners

Originally posted by PisTonZOR

the average altitude for a commercial flight is 35,000 to 39,000

Actually jets usually cruise from 25000 feet all the way upto 45000 feet.

commercial airliners MUST keep a certain distance from each other, should they be commercial they are FAR to close

Have you heard of diferant altitudes? Last time I checked they need atleast 1000 feet of vertical seperation between planes

these planes are approaching each other at an angle, they are not vertical.

what evidence supports ice crystals lingering and appearing like chemtrails/contrails? i have looked and cannot find any.

They are vertically seperated by atleast 1000 feet, though they may not look like it as they are very high up.

Do you think these are about to colide?
www.airliners.net...

Also what evidence DOESN'T support normal Contrails from persistant? Meteorology? No.

...a contrail is formed from the heat from the jet engine, and only leaves a trail for a few SECONDS

Well maybe if you looked up and new some Meteorology you would know that CONtrails can last a very very long time....

Did An Airline Mechanic Stumble Upon The Truth?
(Note - We cannot confirm the following statement but the implications are enormous, and we expect there will be serious efforts to investigate and evaluate these allegations quickly. -ed.)....

www.ufos-aliens.co.uk...

That could of been written in 5 minutes by any idiot wishing to create a hoax.

REAL PROOF OF CHEMTRAILS ANYONE? WHY CANNOT CONTRAILS PERSIST?

well, instead of stating that everyone needs to show evidence, and when shown state its false, why dont you post some links against chemtrails, and we wont be so ignorant as to jump to the conclusion that they are false

those airliners do not look like they are about to collide, i understand the possible illusion for the video i posted, however, should they not be horizontally close, i have only seen red arrows come that close to each other.

you discredit someone by saying if they knew anything about meteorology they would know contrails can exist for long periods of time, prove that this happens frequently, and that means prove it from other sources.

If they only LOOK like commercial planes WHY would they let CIVILIAN workers that weren't part of the giant conspiracy work on them? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We've had planes sit there for hours waiting for the specialist to show up when we had guys that used to work on that part sitting right there by the plane. You don't just grab someone that used to do something and tell them to fix it.

As for horizontal separation, that's only necessary at THE SAME ALTITUDE. The REASON for vertical separation is so that they can fly right over the top of each other at a safe distance. Otherwise we'd have huge holes in the sky where no planes could fly. And horizontal separation is only 0.5 miles. A half a mile when looking up at planes that high is like two inches from the ground.

If the airplanes in the 'close approach' discussion are the pair that fly that "X" pattern, they aren't terribly close, even discounting vertical seperation. They *are* probably closer than the FAA 'flight box' requirement, but the 'boxes' get smaller in certain areas (around airports, for example). If you've only seen the Red Arrows fly that close, take a quick drive to your local major airport and look at the spacing just after takeoff and / or on final. I know the narrator says they're 'pretty close', but watch closely (no pun intended)...better yet, take a watch and time the crossing. BTW, if you've seen the Red Arrows, congratulations...those guys are *seriously* good

As for proof of persistant contrails that aren't chemtrails, take a look at my somewhat long post in this thread...you'll see a link to an image, and my admittedly sarcastic comment 'Chemtrails over Germany'. B-17 and B-24 raids over Europe would create contrail patterns that lasted for hours after the raids ended. You might also do a google search on "St. Paul's Contrails"...you can find some really impressive shots of contrails over St. Paul's in London that lasted long after the dogfights ended. If you want more rigorous proof than photos, then you're going to have to sit through meterology discussions, and perhaps a discussion of why a high-bypass turbofan engine makes a much larger and more persistant trail than older jets do.

Sites against contrails? Should I really bother, or will you just tell me that they're "disinfo", and / or "part of the conspiracy" ? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, I suppose. How's this?

Chemtrails Debunked

Links there to several sites 'against' chemtrails, with sources ranging from pilots to meterologists.

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer
Just as an exercise, let's assume that chemtrails actually do exist, and working from that assumption, let's see who has to be part of the conspiracy.

Assuming that your spray solution doesn't weigh any more than water, and that your chemtrail-laying aircraft has about the same capacity as a Cessna 188 (a popular agricultural sprayer), you're talking about 2,336 lbs just for the solution. That's over a ton of disposable weight. A Boeing 757 (freight variant) has a maximum takeoff weight of 255,000 lbs, so the spray solution alone represents almost 1% of the total max weight for the plane. That's a lot of 'after market' bling to hang on a commercial jet, so we have to assume that the designers at Boeing are part of the conspiracy, along with designers at Lockheed.

The assembly-line workers have to be part of the conspiracy too, since a spray rig is a fairly obvious thing to build, and somebody's going to ask questions.

The maintenance crews have to be in on the deal, because *somebody* has to fix the equipment.

The cockpit crews have to be in on it as well...I can guarantee you that they're going to notice the changes in trim when a plane gets that much lighter. In fact, *every* cockpit crew of *every( airliner is going to have to be part of the conspiracy...otherwise, they'd be asking questions over very public airwaves about why Delta 225 is suddenly throwing smoke from the wings.

The air traffic controllers are part of the cover-up, too...there's no way they're going to not notice all those odd flight patterns, grids, ovals, and Eqyptian Heiroglyphics traced out by chemtrail-spraying planes.

Most of the FAA would have to be in on things, but they're part of The Gub'mint, so that's not a surprise.

At least one chemical company would have to be in on this too, since somebody has to actually make and transport whatever is being sprayed.

At a conservative estimate, we're well over the 100,000 people mark so far, and they're all keeping the secret. That's about 99,999 more people than can normally keep a secret.

Moving along, let's even assume that this vast web of secrecy actually exists, and look at what's being sprayed, and why it's being sprayed. Most of the chemtrail believers I hear / read think that the spraying is either some form of population control (either in the literal sense of reducing population, or in the more esoteric sense of controlling the minds / actions of the population) or some form of atmospheric modification. Oddly enough, the altitudes used by commercial jets don't sit well with either notion. 25,000 - 45,000 feet is FAR too high to perform effective ground spraying. Your spray will be too diffuse, and far too prone to blow off target. There's a *reason* crop dusters fly low, folks, and it's not adrenaline. It's also too low to have a very serious impact on the atmosphere. It's below most of the ozone layer, it's below most of the mass of the atmosphere, which means it's not an effective zone to attempt climate modification.

In short, Chemtrails require (at least as far as I can tell) too many people and too much effort for a very inefficient method of doing anything.

And just because every conspiracy thread these days needs a nifty photo...

That is the most sense I have heard in the last 24 hours...

Originally posted by firepilot
If ice crystals can only last a short time, then how do we get snowfall?

Did you know that all precipitation starts off as snow? Rain is just snow that has melted on the way down

And as far as ice crystals only lasting a short time goes - how come cirrus clouds don;t all dissipate in a matter of minutes? Contrails are simply manmade cirrus clouds. The addition of moisture from a jet engine passing through super-cooled air is all it takes to form them. The problem is how to avoid forming them ....

Firepilot,
The text book does exist from Centre Point Learning, the chapter description from the article is correct as well. See for yourself!

www.cplearning.com...


I was wrong to suggest that you're well paid, it's government work so the pay would only be marginal.

Chemtrails huh?

I really don't know. My girlfriend's dad works for Bombardier, BUILDING airplanes. I'm fairly certain he'd know something about this but he doesn't.

I disagree with saying all rain has to start off as snow. You can have rain from stratus clouds that do not go up high enough to reach the freezing levels.

Did you happen to catch "The science of Superstorms" there on the BBC. I have a question on the part 2 of it if you saw it. I am referring to the documentary, not the drama part.

Clicked on that link, did not see anything that supposedly proves your huge chemtrail spray program.

How would some textbook author and publishing house be involved in your spray program anyways. Do you think all of the textbook publishers are part of your conspiracy too?

No chemmies can explain why ice can not exist in very cold and thin air. There are no detailed photos of any such chemplanes, and certainly not pics of any at an airport.

firepilot, The textbook exists...the chapter exists. What part of children being taught about modification do you not get?

Can any would be debunker come up with any photographic evidence of contrails lingering and expanding like they supposedly do today. You would think that since the mid 60's and beyond there would have been ample evidence of occurring regularly and not just in the past 5-6 years. So that gives you roughly 35 years of jet aviation to come up with something. There, served up on a platter. Good luck!

I guess it's ok for the people that believe in chemtrails to post stories like the supposed mechanics as proof, but not for us to post stories from WWII that talk about contrails spreading out.

Will reports from 1945 do? Or do you only want from the last 35 years? I hate to break it to you but persistent contrails have been around since WWII. The first noticed contrails were from the 1920s.

Formed at 12,000 and the weather caught us. Couldn't climb fast enough to keep out of it. So we took off on our own to avoid any planes in the clouds. Six of our wing men went home when they became separated from us. We left England on our own and headed across France for Strassbourg. The contrails were dense, persistent - really hard to even see our own squadron.

www.geocities.com...

Yes, we certainly did. Contrails were so thick that they became clouds. We often said that we created weather over Europe. They would persist for many hours, maybe days. We flew a different route coming back than going in partly to avoid the contrail clouds that we created. There are some pictures of contrails on my web site - none of these are shown to be very heavy but there were time when we were near the end of the bomber stream and the contrails were so dense that it was no dfferent than flying in clouds. A thousand or more
planes (4000 internal combustion engines) can make a lot of contrail at 25000 feet or more.

My recollection is that the contrails persisted for some time. While I don't recall timing them, I would guess that they could be seen for fifteen minutes or more. At times, Germany appeared to be almost covered by contrails as far as you could see. Essentially creating a cloud layer which could possibly persist for hours I suppose. The bombers' in more or less straight lines, the fighters', usually above us, more random as they criss crossed or circled. A common sight was the escorts dropping their tanks and heading off after the bad guys.

The contrails also tended to create a cloud layer which restricted the visibility of the following aircraft. So, contrails represented a problem to us and were to be avoided if at all possible. The idea of poison clouds is obviously ludicrous to those who have regularly experienced them.

www.goodsky.homestead.com...

Sorry, but they were a little too busy to sit around looking at the contrails and take pictures, but their stories are good enough for me.

Assuming that your spray solution doesn't weigh any more than water, and that your chemtrail-laying aircraft has about the same capacity as a Cessna 188 (a popular agricultural sprayer)

a popular agricultural sprayer? you havent done your homework.

the cessna 188 was first produced in 1966, assuming that a chem-plane would have the same capacity as a 41 year old plane is ridiculous

you're talking about 2,336 lbs just for the solution. That's over a ton of disposable weight. A Boeing 757 (freight variant) has a maximum takeoff weight of 255,000 lbs, so the spray solution alone represents almost 1% of the total max weight for the plane. That's a lot of 'after market' bling to hang on a commercial jet, so we have to assume that the designers at Boeing are part of the conspiracy, along with designers at Lockheed.

hold on, you've just again assumed that boeing planes are being used, there are plenty of other ways the government could make something in secret, lets not assume that boeing must be making the planes. Assuming that it has to be boeing is ridiculous.

The assembly-line workers have to be part of the conspiracy too, since a spray rig is a fairly obvious thing to build, and somebody's going to ask questions.

ofcourse, but did someone not post an alleged story of how someone claimed they had worked on it? it was immeidiately discredited in that it could be a hoax.

The cockpit crews have to be in on it as well...I can guarantee you that they're going to notice the changes in trim when a plane gets that much lighter. In fact, *every* cockpit crew of *every( airliner is going to have to be part of the conspiracy...otherwise, they'd be asking questions over very public airwaves about why Delta 225 is suddenly throwing smoke from the wings.

according to the conspiracy, the planes are either driven by drones, or the pilots are kept very quiet.

At least one chemical company would have to be in on this too, since somebody has to actually make and transport whatever is being sprayed.

yes, but it wouldnt be that hard for the government to make the chemicals and claim it was for something else, would it.

At a conservative estimate, we're well over the 100,000 people mark so far, and they're all keeping the secret. That's about 99,999 more people than can normally keep a secret.

right, so if your theory is correct, everyone who ever worked for HAARP, montauk ect, would ALL come and tell the truth, except 1 person ofcourse.

Moving along, let's even assume that this vast web of secrecy actually exists, and look at what's being sprayed, and why it's being sprayed. Most of the chemtrail believers I hear / read think that the spraying is either some form of population control (either in the literal sense of reducing population, or in the more esoteric sense of controlling the minds / actions of the population) or some form of atmospheric modification. Oddly enough, the altitudes used by commercial jets don't sit well with either notion. 25,000 - 45,000 feet is FAR too high to perform effective ground spraying. Your spray will be too diffuse, and far too prone to blow off target.

ok, but considering that you see chemtrails that span a large amount of area, and that they are being sprayed all the time, each area would recieve an adequete amount of the spray.

In short, Chemtrails require (at least as far as I can tell) too many people and too much effort for a very inefficient method of doing anything.

inefficient? its quite the opposite.

what comes to mind when one sees a foggy haze in the air? a contrail, if chemtrails are real then it would use peoples own perceptions of what they know of aeroplanes exhaust fumes, not that contrails cant persist, but i do believe that it is over exaggerated too the length of time that they persist in warm conditions, carnicom.com/contrails.htm

[edit on 27-4-2007 by 117113]