U.S. House passes bill requireing troop pullout

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

MidnightDStroyer -

Obviously we don't see eye-to eye on the correct way to address illegal immigration, so can we just agree to disagree and not hold it against each other. Your concerns and opnions are just as valid as mine, but neither of us is in a position to really do anything about it. Whether the use of active-duty troops ever becomes a fact is up to Bush and I have no desire to try and predict what he is going to do next!

On your other point, though, I will agree with you 100%:

The government is also proposing the formation of the North American Union...They've already got the "groundwork" laid for it, all under secrecy so that they can adopt a "no turning back" excuse to the American Public. Don't you see that it's their final solution to all of that "Constitutional nonsense" they've had to put up with from "the plebs" over the past couple of centuries? If that Union ever happens, it will destroy our national sovereignty & the Constitution that created it in the first place.

If the NAU ever becomes reality, it will mean disaster of unparalleled magnatude for the financial state of this country and Canada; the stock market will come close to collapse and the world monetary system will also be badly damaged; that is in addition to wiping out 230+ years of our country's history and destroying our national identity as American's.

No, from what I see of the corruption in government (and there's far too much "synergy" among the government's actions to be anything other than corruption); The People need to secure our own borders, halt the "civilian invasion" & to "provide for the common defense" before it's too late to fix anything that the Tyranical Government have planned for us.

If what you think is true, then the "People" will have to do all of that on their own in direct and maybe violent opposition to our government because the government will never do it on their own unless it is in their percieved, "best interest". So, what you are really talking about is anarchy, right? But, then, you lose control of the situation real quick, IMO, anyway.

Originally posted by StormriderIf what you think is true, then the "People" will have to do all of that on their own in direct and maybe violent opposition to our government because the government will never do it on their own unless it is in their percieved, "best interest". So, what you are really talking about is anarchy, right? But, then, you lose control of the situation real quick, IMO, anyway.

BTW, you got your UMB codes mixed up...

No, I'm not talking about anarchy. The only type of anarchy that has even a shred of hope to work would be a Consensual Anarchy...Basically, it's when everybody worldwide can agree that, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins." Correct me if I'm wrong, but humanity hasn't progressed anywhere near that far yet.

Throughout history, it's been shown that society abhors an anarchy as much as Nature abhors a vaccumn...With the lack of some kind of organization in society, you can bet that there's always someone around who will try to fill that social vaccumn. If you know any kind of Physics at all, it should come as no surprise that, when nature decides to fill a vaccumn, that's when everything really starts to suck!

But, if you really take a look around, at least some of The People are doing something about it. The biggest hurdle is to teach enough people the truth behind the political rehtoric before the government can be brought back into Constitutional limits...I think sites like ATS does a lot to get the information spread around! (Three Amigos, do I get any brownie points for this?...Nah, I didn't think so either )

As written (and if adhered to), the Magna Carta, Articles of Confederation & the Constitution (with it's Bill of Rights) merely describes the peaceful conditions (with the threat of violence if peaceful methods don't work) under which a tyrannical government can be brought to heel...The main problem is that there's too few people right now who actually apply these principles & remain vilgilant against governmental tyranny.

If you really look at those Founding Documents, you're likely to find that everything I suggested above does fall within Constitutional limits!

BTW, I notice you changed your avatar...Something to do with my first quote down below, perhaps?

[edit on 28-4-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
No, I'm not talking about anarchy. The only type of anarchy that has even a shred of hope to work would be a Consensual Anarchy...Basically, it's when everybody worldwide can agree that, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins." Correct me if I'm wrong, but humanity hasn't progressed anywhere near that far yet.

No correction needed. You are absolutely correct.

Throughout history, it's been shown that society abhors an anarchy as much as Nature abhors a vaccumn...With the lack of some kind of organization in society, you can bet that there's always someone around who will try to fill that social vaccumn. If you know any kind of Physics at all, it should come as no surprise that, when nature decides to fill a vaccumn, that's when everything really starts to suck!

Again, you are correct, sir! What is it we disagree on again?

But, if you really take a look around, at least some of The People are doing something about it. The biggest hurdle is to teach enough people the truth behind the political rehtoric before the government can be brought back into Constitutional limits...I think sites like ATS does a lot to get the information spread around! (Three Amigos, do I get any brownie points for this?...Nah, I didn't think so either

)

I think that ATS is a tremendous channel of information; the trouble is that not enough people know about it, yet. That will change and there are other forums and blogs, a lot of them actually, out there in cybersapce as well; the trouble is that all they or anyone can do is get the info disseminated and call for action, then what? That old saw, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't tmake him drink", still holds true. IMO, if something doesn't happen very soon to pierce the thick cloud of apathy and complacency in this country, we may not have much more time to effect change before it's just too late. Unless all, or at least the vast majority of, Americans wake up from their self-induced funk, and decide that enough is enough and impeach the current administration and hold their elected representatives to account, our Constitution and cherished way of life will just be a footnote in some future history book.

BTW, I notice you changed your avatar...Something to do with my first quote down below, perhaps?

Well, maybe unconciously, although I have been a fan of the snake-man since "Escape from New York" came out in 1981. But the pic fit in with the image I was going for, and it's really uncanny how much he and I look alike!

Originally posted by StormriderIMO, if something doesn't happen very soon to pierce the thick cloud of apathy and complacency in this country, we may not have much more time to effect change before it's just too late.

First, the People have to know what's going on...Why do you think the Government tries to keep things under a tight seal until it's too late to be stopped? The Government knows that they will be stopped if the People could act in time.

Right now, the We The People Foundation has seven ( ! ) petitions for redress of grievances in-process right now...This is only one example from many that are figuring it out & trying to stop it before it's too late. They're using Constitutional means to keep shoving the government's Breeches of the Constitutional Oath right in their faces.

Originally posted by StormriderUnless all, or at least the vast majority of, Americans wake up from their self-induced funk, and decide that enough is enough and impeach the current administration and hold their elected representatives to account, our Constitution and cherished way of life will just be a footnote in some future history book.

Some of the problems facing the People is that the government's been working to protect itself from the very People it's supposed to be serving...They're scared of us & have every reason to be. The history of civilization repeats the same theme over & over...Push the People hard enough & they fight back. Hitler's Third Reich failed because he couldn't gain control over everybody fast enough...People fought back & Hitler failed.

It's one of the "natural laws" that the Founding Fathers were aware of & wrote about when they wrote the Constitution for the purpose of limiting the Government...If the Government were to willingly return to those limitations, then they'd have nothing to fear from the People.

Ironic, isn't it?


[edit on 28-4-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

Ok my own curriousity is killing me. Raise your hand if you have ever served in the armed forces Ok now how many of you reviewing the decision to set a date to back out of Iraq have ever served in the middle east in a combat role for any length of time.... SIGH..... Raise your hand Ok almost done, how many of you expressing your thougts about the congressional decission really have a clue about what kind of message we are sending to those that would see us destroyed and our way of life ended raise you hand..... Please leave your liberal oppinions at the door and check your intelligence before commenting as your immaturity is shining through here.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by SOFW BanG]

Originally posted by SOFW BanG
Ok almost done, how many of you expressing your thougts about the congressional decission really have a clue about what kind of message we are sending to those that would see us destroyed and our way of life ended raise you hand.....

Please leave your liberal oppinions at the door and check your intelligence before commenting as your immaturity is shining through here.

I may be liberal in my thinking, but at least Im not paranoid about some invented enemy coming to take over the USA and end my way of life thankfully. Obviously Bushes "Shock and Awe" operation was intended for people such as yourself. We go your route maybe the what-was-once ragtag couple of hundred people will recruit a few hundred thousand more people and your imaginary story will come true. As hard as I know this is for you to wrap your mind around, but there were no WMD's now or then, and there were never ever any al-queda people OR training camps in Iraq until we went there and drew them there.

Originally posted by SOFW BanG
Ok almost done, how many of you expressing your thougts about the congressional decission really have a clue about what kind of message we are sending to those that would see us destroyed and our way of life ended raise you hand.....

What you fail to see is that the only one trying to destroy our way of life and our constitutional rights are the same people that we have elected to protect and served us and to protect the same constitution that they are wiping their arses with.

Our system of government have stray from the path of what once it swore to protect in purse of private agendas, greed and power. That is why we are in the middle east and our own government is up to its nose trying to get control of something that do no belong to them, forcing a way of life to a population that doesn't want it.

That is enough to keep the people in the middle east wanting to fight the occupation and intruders of their lands with everything they have.

Wake up and deny Ignorance.

Our military has been use by the present administration in a corrupted way to satisfy their corporate agendas.

Please leave your liberal opinions at the door and check your intelligence before commenting as your immaturity is shining through here.

Make sure you are the first one to follow your own advise.