Ba'al vs. Bel

Check this etymology chart for LIL (EnLIL):

www.balaams-ass.com...

The root form of IL is not EL, it's LIL, because EnLIL came before (timeframe wise) IL, which is the contracted form of LIL and so on and so on.

So, I'm thinking what about this BEL fellow. Everytime I look it up, I get the same etymology - Bel was a form of Ba'al. What makes them think so? How does "EL" become "AL"? Are they making the mistake of assuming that AL' was derived from the root "EL" when it was derived from "LIL"? Or, is it a mistake? How is it that LIL is the rootform of IL, but not the rootform of EL, and yet we have BEL, from BA'AL?

Where's a language expert when you need one!!!



[edit on 23-4-2007 by undo]

I would think this is merely a dialect difference.
Bel

Originally posted by WhiteWash
I would think this is merely a dialect difference.
Bel

so if that were true, could BEL also be known as BIL?

Interesting quote from your source

Early translators of Akkadian believed that the ideogram for the god called in Sumerian Enlil was to be read as Bel in Akkadian. This is now known to be incorrect; but one finds Bel used in referring to Enlil in older translations and discussions.

They don't explain why it is not the same, other than it is now known that Enlil is not Bel. So if Enlil is not Bel, then he can't be Ba'al either, according to your link. So how does Enlil end up being "AL'LAH", which sounds more like the change stems from the Ba'al word in the god names.

Sheesh.. It's a tangled mess I tell ya! A tangled mess!



[edit on 23-4-2007 by undo]

Let me rephrase, as this probably is not making much sense:

According to the chart I linked in the OP, Enlil resolves to AL'LAH, but never resolves to EL. The reasoning given is that the root form of IL, which is in the etymological tree of AL'LAH is not EL it's LIL, as it was derived from EnLIL. Since EnLIL and therefore LIL predates the contracted form of 'IL, this appears to be the etymology of 'IL not EL.

Yet, here we have an explanation the link in the second post, that claims the dialects of two different semitic groups, south and north, had two different ways of spelling Ba'al. One spelled it BEL and the other spelled it BA'AL. This would mean that the contracted form of 'AL is the same as EL. But according to the chart in the OP, AL is resolved from LIL and therefore the contracted 'IL.

I need info on how 'AL ends up being EL. Anybody got the etymology for this please? Even across dialects, there should be some etymological trail!

"Various theories are proposed regarding the etymology of the word "Allah". One is that the word Allāh (الله) is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al- (the) and ʾilāh (deity, masculine form) — al-ilāh meaning "the God", which is the most likely. Another theory traces the etymology of the word to the Aramaic Alāhā.[3]"
Source

In your use of "Al'lah" are you referring to the arabic word for "god" or??
If so it says in wiki it may derive from Ilah meaning "deity, masculine form".
I think most of this confusion over the words you are researching is most likely because of dialects and the way language changes over time. In addition, the problem arises in interpretations, and differences in writing down the information, and slang, etc...I agree it is a very convoluted and tangled mess.

Could it be that the EL and IL forms both just mean god in a sort of generic way?

In your use of "Al'lah" are you referring to the arabic word for "god" or??

EnLIL = god
LIL (drop gender prefix)
ILAH=god (semitic, arabic)
AL'ILAH=the god (add "the")
AL'LAH=the god (contract the semitic form)

Originally posted by undo
Could it be that the EL and IL forms both just mean god in a sort of generic way?

If I had to form an opinion of this, I would say that One is masculine, and one is feminine.

"Most. linguists believe that the term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al (the) and ʾilāh (deity, masculine form) - al-ilāh meaning "the god". Also, one of the main pagan goddesses of pre-Islamic Arabia, Allāt (al + ʾilāh + at, or 'the goddess'), is cited as being etymologically (though not synchronically) the feminine linguistic counterpart to the grammatically masculine Allāh. If so, the word Allāh is an abbreviated title, meaning 'the deity', rather than a name."
Source

If it derives from ENLIL, his female counterpart was NINLIL.

That's got nothing to do with EL, unfortunately. Well it might, but based on my research I don't think Enlil is EL. Well he was of the class of elohim, but there appears to be a difference between a son of EL (or Anu) and EL. Ugh. This just gets worse by the minute.

Here's the problem. If EL is the supreme God, he cannot be Enlil. Because the high god is Anu, based on sumerian texts. If the high god is Anu, that means Enlil (who the texts say is the son of Anu) is a son of God, an angelic being, so to speak, and not the high God himself. I don't get how we end up with the supreme god, EL, being the same as Enlil. The etymology is different until Bel, anyway. Which is even more confusing. Enlil resolves to IL, not EL, but yet you're saying it does resolve to EL in a different dialect. How, i have no idea.

Did they know him as EnLEL? Or LEL? Before they knew him as BEL?


NEEeeeed the etymology of BEL.

[edit on 23-4-2007 by undo]

To be honest Undo,
I am really not certain myself. I am not an etymology expert.
I merely take an interest due to my long-ago research into those languages due to my interest in the Cthulhu Mythos.

Originally posted by WhiteWash
To be honest Undo,
I am really not certain myself. I am not an etymology expert.
I merely take an interest due to my long-ago research into those languages due to my interest in the Cthulhu Mythos.

well thanks for your help. you have a cthulhu page or thread?

No Problem Undo
Currently I have no Cthulhu type thread going.
In the past it usually seemed to become quite heated due to the "It's all hogwash" on one end and the "It's all real" on the other.

Peace

that's usually how it goes. lol i've not studied it. was wondering what it was about. guess i need to do that the hard way and go look it up

here are a couple images that seem to defy the idea that Ba'al and Bel are the same:

BEL Note it says he's the sun god ? ?


BA'AL Note it says he's the storm god ? ?

"The worship of Ba`al Hammon flourished in the Phoenician colony of Carthage. Ba`al Hammon was the supreme god of the Carthaginians and is generally identified by modern scholars either with the northwest Semitic god El or with Dagon, and generally identified by the Greeks with Cronus and by the Romans with Saturn.

The meaning of Hammon or Hamon is unclear. In the 19th century when Ernest Renan excavated the ruins of Hammon (?ammon), the modern Umm al-‘Awamid between Tyre and Acre, he found two Phoenician inscriptions dedicated to El-Hammon. Since El was normally identified with Cronus and Ba‘al Hammon was also identified with Cronus, it seemed possible they could be equated. More often a connection with Hebrew/Phoenician ?amman 'brazier' has been proposed. Frank Moore Cross argued for a connection to Khamon, the Ugaritic and Akkadian name for Mount Amanus, the great mountain separating Syria from Cilicia based on the occurrence of an Ugaritic description of El as the one of the Mountain Haman.

Classical sources relate how the Carthaginians burned their children as offerings to Ba`al Hammon. See Moloch for a discussion of these traditions and conflicting thoughts on the matter. Such a devouring of children fits well with the Greek traditions of Cronus."
Source

IMO I agree I think they are two different deities altogether.

Oh and if you are interested:
Cthulhu
H.P.Lovecraft
Al Azif aka Necronomicon

you may be interested to know Baal is also linked to Dagon....a deity that appears in the Lovecraft Cthulhu Mythos quite a bit.
Dagon

[edit on 23-4-2007 by WhiteWash]

Well that was interesting (about the necro whatever book). i think i've read some of that. it was the basis for the cthulthu character? or rather, lovecraft wrote it like it was the basis for it?

as regards the ba'al = dagon link you posted. upon reading the article it says that some equate him with enlil. that would be incorrect. enlil's not a fertility deity. he's not a grain god. he's not an agricultural god. enki, however, fits that. enlil's e.kur temple was in the foothills of a mountain range. his area would be more related to the raising of certain forms of livestock, that require a cooler, higher elevation. enki's e.abzu was sea level, and irrigated with canals he had specially built to water the land for the raising of grains he supposedly imported to the once desert area from .........somewhere else.

Originally posted by WhiteWash
No Problem Undo

Currently I have no Cthulhu type thread going.
In the past it usually seemed to become quite heated due to the "It's all hogwash" on one end and the "It's all real" on the other.

Peace

i say we split the difference and say it is REAL HOGWASH.

Michael Heiser (linguist and scholar of ancient near and middle eastern languages) had this to say on the topic of Bel and Ba'al:

Bel is Baal because (1) Baal was rendered into Greek as Bel (the "e"
being the long "e" - the "eta" in Greek - as opposed to the short "e"
the epsilon); and (2) When the Greek spelling was transliterated into
English (when various texts from the ancient world got translated), the
transliteration was "Bel" since English transliteration doesn't
distinguish between the short and long "e" of Greek. A scholar would
use diacritical marks to distinguish them, but translations of these
texts were meant for the wider English reading audience, who could care
less about such precision (and it was easier to typeset too).

When I showed him the images and further inquired, he said:

Depends what you're talking about - there is the "Baal/Bel" of
transliteration, the fact that "Baal" simply means "lord" (which can be
and was appended to various deities and sub-deities), and then there is
the "Baal/Bel" of various pantheons - and even local pantheons vs. the
wider national pantheons.

So I've posed the LIL = IL does not equal EL puzzle, to see if he can explain how EL is in BEL and is BA'AL, which is AL'LAH and not AL'LAH, at the same time! lol If anyone can figure this out, I think he can.

And then you work in where does LILith come in...

Or Belial... Baalzebub...