What if the World never had Religion ?

I ran out of room in the above post so here is the source.

I ask that the entire post, on the previous page, is read before responding.

Awaiting feedback.

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[edit on 4/15/0707 by spines]

Those of you who claim that religion is the major cause for wars are completely missinformed. Many of our left-leaning college professors would have us believe that. (Not trying to turn this political, but our teachers are often the source of this wives tale)

In reality, SECULARISM, especially in the 20th century, has been responsible for more deaths than religion has in its entire history. Need I reference the 100+ MILLION deaths that Communism is responsible for? How about all of the deaths at the hands of secular Nazi's during WWII? Ever hear of the Khmer Rouge? Joseph Stalin? Even Saddam Huessein, who truly wasn't a practicing Muslim unless the cameras were on and he needed to generate some post-Gulf War support at home, could be considered a secularist.

The fact is that those who have refused to acknowledge the existence of a higher power, and who have refused to allow their people to worship anything other than themselves and their government, have more blood on on their hands than all of the world's religions combined. I'm not trying to discount the wars that have resulted due to religion. But lets call a spade a spade. Just because a minority of some of our religions have chosen to misinterpret the words and the wills of those they worship does not mean that religion as a whole is a bad thing.

I, for one, cannot imagine what kind of world this would be if everyone thought there would be no accountability in the afterlife. As a practicing Christian I believe in God and I believe that we will be held accountable for our sins. And even if I am completely wrong in my beliefs and there is no God, I am grateful to those who planted this false hope and belief in our minds. Because it is an indisputable FACT that throughout history plenty of people have chosen not to murder, steal, lie or committ other crimes against society because it conflicted with their religious beliefs. And when you compare that to the amounts of bad things that have taken place in the name of religion, I think that GOOD still comes out very far ahead. And let my words in no way be taken as though I'm saying that people cannot be good without believing in God. That is not my intent at all. There are plenty of good, law-abiding and respectful Athiests out there. And just like we find bad people in religion, we find plenty of bad people in secularism.

First of all, it is clear that Hitler knew many civilians would reject his plans, so he hid them, just as the Bush Administration does today. Confined purely to Hitler and his senior leaders, was a small religion, what you would call a cult, the Thule Society.

The Thule Society was as responsible for the atrocities of WWII as the Project For a New American Century is responsible for the atrocities of today, and just as much a cult.

What this really shows was that most Germans were normal moral people and while they didn't like what was happening when they eventually learned of it, you generally gain more power if you are sympathetic to a corrupt administration, and by the time these things were leaking out, it would be dangerous to stand up.

There was a time after 9/11 when many people were afraid to stand up to Bush over Iraq out of fear the FBI would knock at your door.

And Communism as it existed in practicality was a religion, merely replacing God with The State. I'm sure I said that already, but people keep claiming Communism IS Atheism, as if this is still the MacArthur era. I am an atheist, but not a communist.

Eugenics was originally conceived and supported by many intelligent people, but what the Nazis did gave it a really bad name. It is not necessary to kill and sterilize people to improve the human race. The Nazis chose this because it was the fastest and most economical and because their beliefs that they were a Master Race chosen by God immunized them from feeling any compassion for other humans.

The use of eugenics or any other science does not mean they were not religious. Their cult religion provided their motivation and left them unencumbered by moral restrictions.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
I, for one, cannot imagine what kind of world this would be if everyone thought there would be no accountability in the afterlife.

You believe all children should be whipped as punishment for anything they do. You are the one with the problem and thank yourself for the wars, attempts to whip those you think deserve it.
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.
--Albert Einstein

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Those of you who claim that religion is the major cause for wars are completely missinformed. Many of our left-leaning college professors would have us believe that. (Not trying to turn this political, but our teachers are often the source of this wives tale)

You are correct, but slightly off. Religion was just another excuse to justify invasions/occupations/genocides etc (Our God wants us to have the Holy Land, and free it from the infidels!).

Originally posted by Rasputin13
In reality, SECULARISM, especially in the 20th century, has been responsible for more deaths than religion has in its entire history. Need I reference the 100+ MILLION deaths that Communism is responsible for? How about all of the deaths at the hands of secular Nazi's during WWII? Ever hear of the Khmer Rouge? Joseph Stalin? Even Saddam Huessein, who truly wasn't a practicing Muslim unless the cameras were on and he needed to generate some post-Gulf War support at home, could be considered a secularist.

But neither secularism nor belief in secularism caused those deaths. What, because those states followed 'secularist' agendas the aforementioned 'secularism' must have been the main cause of the deaths? So therefore nations led by religious leaders are also guilty of millions of deaths.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
The fact is that those who have refused to acknowledge the existence of a higher power, and who have refused to allow their people to worship anything other than themselves and their government, have more blood on on their hands than all of the world's religions combined.

What about the various rulers that have believed in a higher power, and used their aforementioned beliefs to justify wars/genocide/religious persecution? And those rulers that have refused to allow subjects to follow religions they don't believe in?

Originally posted by Rasputin13
I'm not trying to discount the wars that have resulted due to religion. But lets call a spade a spade. Just because a minority of some of our religions have chosen to misinterpret the words and the wills of those they worship does not mean that religion as a whole is a bad thing.

And just because a minority of us secularists have chosen to repress religions/start wars/initiate genocides etc does not mean that secularism is a bad thing.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
I, for one, cannot imagine what kind of world this would be if everyone thought there would be no accountability in the afterlife. As a practicing Christian I believe in God and I believe that we will be held accountable for our sins. And even if I am completely wrong in my beliefs and there is no God, I am grateful to those who planted this false hope and belief in our minds.

Thanks for more religious rhetoric completely unrelated to the debate at hand.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Because it is an indisputable FACT that throughout history plenty of people have chosen not to murder, steal, lie or committ other crimes against society because it conflicted with their religious beliefs.

But what about those without religion that still adhere to their own set of morals? Or those that use religion to justify their vices? Personally I believe the child that doesn't steal because he knows it's wrong is morally superior to the one that doesn't steal just because he's told not to.

Morals can be taught without religion by using a philosophy and religions can exist without moral teachings by obeying that religions deity without question.

Why was there a need for religion? Why would a enlightened being feel the need to be worshipped or obeyed by a lesser being while imparting moral teachings to the them?

Either the deity was not the enlighten being that people thought it was or the original teachings were misinterpreted/corrupted.

Bottom line is religion is not necessacry to teach morals. If mankind was taught moral virtues without the need to worship the teacher, I believe that we could have advance very far.

If God was truly all powerful or enlightened, God would have no need for religion or to be worship by any being, much less a lesser being..... are we being decieved or did we misuse/misinterpret the teachings? or Both.

Religion is the greatest tool for power and control. The moral have no need for such a tool. The world may have been a better place without it.

Secularism and Religions have both cause great suffering to people, but one is mortal and can be challenged, the other is immortal, eternal and based on faith which cannot be questioned or challenged, or can it?

[edit on 16-4-2007 by ixiy]

I don't think any of you guys are thinking straight
without religion there would be no civilisation
it was a belief in God that held early civilisations together
fair enough their god could be seen every day sitting on his ass at the top of the temple but it was still religion
the problem with religion came when the God king was replaced by the god in heaven
when that happened the control was gone
men decided for themselves what they thought God wanted thrm to do
Religion became an excuse to persecute and kill others not like you
so without religion we would still be living a hunter gatherer existence
but the real question is
do we still need it
I don't think we do
anyone who isn't smart enough to be a good person unless they are following ten rules written down two thousand years ago in a cranky middle eastern cult book needs to be persecuted for their stupidity imo

maybe we should round up all those who claim religion is a perfectly valid reason to kill people and kill them
whatever happens the death toll would not be as high as the death toll already for people killed labelled as heretics
christianity alone is responsible for the deaths of over 500 million innocent men women and children (150 million in america alone)
compared to that
most of the other religious murdering zealots are rank amateurs

atheism is just as bad as theism IMO. agnoticism is in the middle of the two and seems a little better. But anyways, I think it would be best to allow people to believe what they want, but don't force others to share your belief.

The Atheists will say life would be Utopia.

And, the Christians, Muslims, and Jews will say that life wouldn't be here to even become Utopian to begin with.

I personally feel that Monotheistic, Abrahamic religion has rooted various societies around the globe when regarding morality, morals, what to do and what not to do, personal responsibility, collective anger.

Thats not to say that Morals wouldn't exist without religion, I think if every human was completely blinded of the concept of a God thus religion, some of them would still by nature live a decent life and do decent things, most importantly not doing indecent things. But the scale on which this occurs would be different. I think there'd be alot more people who were careless regarding morality and their fellow man.

Originally posted by Marduk
I don't think any of you guys are thinking straight
without religion there would be no civilisation
it was a belief in God that held early civilisations together
fair enough their god could be seen every day sitting on his ass at the top of the temple but it was still religion
the problem with religion came when the God king was replaced by the god in heaven
when that happened the control was gone
men decided for themselves what they thought God wanted thrm to do
Religion became an excuse to persecute and kill others not like you
so without religion we would still be living a hunter gatherer existence
but the real question is
do we still need it

I have no doubt that the star gods brought about civilization to people, but they didn't need to use religions as a tool of control. As a result, it's long term damage to the primitive race maybe more destructive then it's short term benefits.

I wonder if they realized this, maybe if they didn't really care about the effects as long as they got what they wanted or it was never started by them at all.

Originally posted by runetang
The Atheists will say life would be Utopia.

And, the Christians, Muslims, and Jews will say that life wouldn't be here to even become Utopian to begin with.

I personally feel that Monotheistic, Abrahamic religion has rooted various societies around the globe when regarding morality, morals, what to do and what not to do, personal responsibility, collective anger.

Thats not to say that Morals wouldn't exist without religion, I think if every human was completely blinded of the concept of a God thus religion, some of them would still by nature live a decent life and do decent things, most importantly not doing indecent things. But the scale on which this occurs would be different. I think there'd be alot more people who were careless regarding morality and their fellow man.

I think it would depend mostly on the leaders of that group, if they were decent people, they would generally be less tolerant of the immoral. If they were indecent, they may encourage destructive self-centre behaviours in their group or would deceive them to gain power or abuse others.

[edit on 16-4-2007 by ixiy]

Originally posted by Marduk

christianity alone is responsible for the deaths of over 500 million innocent men women and children (150 million in america alone)
compared to that
most of the other religious murdering zealots are rank amateurs

Yea, just like Indians were reponsible for dumping a lot of tea in Boston Harbor.......

Much to learn you have..............GRASSHOPPER...............

Originally posted by curiousbeliever
atheism is just as bad as theism IMO. agnoticism is in the middle of the two and seems a little better. But anyways, I think it would be best to allow people to believe what they want, but don't force others to share your belief.

What if the intentions of atheists were based on their past experience as theists, that they were brainwashed (raped) into believing, which is the subtlest and most brutal form of force, and as part of their healing process felt a moral obligation to guide others back to personal freedom and peace again?

Agnostics (even those that call themselves (weak) atheists) haven't had the same pleasure I've had and therefore don't feel the same moral obligation.

I think some of you are really blind. No one said religion is the major reason for war. They said that without religion, some of the majo wars that we've had won't even happen. If you can't understand that...you must be blind. Or can't read.

If the world had no religion, it would still be pretty messed up. It's like saying the world would be perfect if everyone was of the same race. If that were the case, we'd still have problems. Some different, some exactly the same. But problems none the less.

As for you people who think we'd have no morals or ethics without religion you must be stupid. That statement means you don't believe human beings to have any kind of common sense. Give us some credit damnit. We're not all stupid you know. I highly doubt that without morals & ethics that religions seem to create we won't have any. Who created religion? Man! Who created ethics & morals? The goodness/selfishness(think about it)/fairness/unfairness in man. I don't think we need religion to have ethics or morals!

After all, who created religion? Man! If we can create that...ethics & morals are a piece of cake. I don't know why some of you call yourselves smart & prove yourselves wrong every time you open your mouth.

Can someone tell me what happened to the Incan empire? Thanks.

I'm wondering how and why they diss appeared. It would be nice to know who and what did this to them, and why

Sun matrix people are responsible for crimes not religions,there are many excuses to do harm,it doesnt mean that the "exuses" are evil