sacred, secret, occult, evil, freemasonry, truth, light, and life.

I am just so freaking tired of intolerance in general. Let's shed some truth and light on the hidden, secret, and occult and true evil of the world, shall we? Anyone interested in that?

First, why are there people who are so anti-freemason? Or anti-secret societies even? What are they against, and more so what are they afraid of? Are they any different than any person who is prejudice and swayed by intolerance for the rights, race, or religion of others?

I know very little about freemasonry...very little, but I know a bit more about the human condition of fear, prejudice, and paranoia. Why to some does sacred or secret imply evil?

I am aware the word "occult", meaning hidden, or to some even "secret" is interpreted as evil because of the modern Judeo-Christian fears that all truth is open and in the light, so all that is not free to the knowledge of everyone, all that is secret or hidden, is evil.

They seem to think an "occultist" is a Satan-loving, Satan-worshiping, baby-sacrificing, cow mutilating evil minion-wanna-be on Earth...so then the freemasons are...what? Since they have an organized society that one must "join" abide by certain rules and restrictions, and keep certain confidences, they must be occult and thus evil?

What is so scary about freemasons? Is it only the Christians that are against them, or is there any anti-freemason that does NOT have religious bias?

Weren't many of the first American Freemason's Christians? Aha, but I believe many of the first of the Christian "Mormon" religion were freemasons as well, and Mormon's were tarred and feathered, chased across America and killed along the way.

It goes to figure then, that many today would like to see Freemason's treated in the same manner, tarred and feathered, figuratively if not literally. Though there is no connection with freemasons and Mormons today (most Mormon's I know are not freemason's, and the few freemason's I've met were not Mormon. My brother was invited to join the freemason's and he is not Mormon, etc) they face similar prejudice.

Mormon's are attacked by other Christian religions and denominations because they have temples-even though temple worship is, or would seem to be, a paramount part of Christianity as it was anciently important to Christ and those who came before Him, prophesying of Him and testifying of him. Mormon's however, are seen as being "occult" because there temples and temple practices are not for the general public, nor are the ceremonies discussed as they are considered sacred and not to be discussed outside of the temple.

Why do the Catholics confess in anonymity? Is that not secret, hidden, occult?
For those protestant Christian's that are Anti-Freemason, Anti-Mormon, and Anti-Catholic, can you tell me, was the temple and the Holy of the Holies an evil place ancient prophets and Jews went? So, was Jesus then part of a religious cult of the occult? I mean it would stand to reason if that is where your judgement lies.

If something is secret and or sacred, it is not something flagrantly disrespected by talking of it casually, or discussing it with whom it is not intended, this does not make something or someone sinister nor evil. It just apparently annoys to no end, those who feel they know- or should have the right to know- everything, ridicule anything, and have the right to be prejudiced against anyone. Personally, I'm tired of it . Get a life people.

I also understand there is another type of fear for the Anti-mason. The fear that those who are the majority of freemasons are really poor helpless fools that don't know the evil they are a front for. Those that think the average Freemason is a front for some elite organization of the rich and powerful who plan to destroy the world in some diabolical plan and are already running things behind the scenes.

To that I say...and what? If it isn't true of the freemason's, it probably true of some organization...the evil must organize...maybe it's the Mormons...after all they and those sweet little 20 year old missionaries are taking over the world...and making beautiful holy House of God-yes, temples! Yikes!

Or perhaps you feel, all the little freemasons's should wake up and expose their secrets and traditions and their leaders for the evil they are? They should get out while they can? They should find and stop the diabolical plans? Or just get out, sell out, and make you feel supremely enlightened that you knew it all along...

What do you Anti-Freemasons want?

I find most Anti-Freemasons, like most people who practice intolerance in general, are just ignorant, and ignorance fuels fear, and fear fuels prejudice, and prejudice fuels intolerance...

What a vicious cycle.

Live and let live people.

You make excellent points. Your post pretty much sums it up.

The Nazis and Communists were very anti-Mason. So was the Catholic Church. Basically, I have noticed people who spout a bunch of far out anti-Masonic prattle tend to use the same reasons for claiming Masons as evil that the Nazis did.

Freemasonry as an organization is not evil, Ive come to conclude. They have their secrets. So? Everyone has a right to some secrets. Its really no one's biz what the Mason's want to do behind the closed doors of their lodges, so long as it is not anything dangerous or illegal. Of course, the anti-Masons claim they have "proof" that Masons are doing everything from running Child Porn rings to eating babies, sacrificing grandmas, holding orgies in Satan's honor, or plotting with aliens to blow up trailer parks. And so far, no one has produced any solid evidence of such claims.

I think secret societies in general are ok. Secrecy involved doesn't necessarily mean they are engaging in evil activities. I think that in alot of these secret societies, the rituals and activities within their temples or lodges are considered sacred and spiritual, and they really don't want a bunch of gawking yokels coming in to oogle, laugh,point, or otherwise ruin the special nature of the rite. Hell, I'm Wiccan. While my religous rituals involve nothing scary, I certaionly like to keep them secret because I don't want idiots interrupting, harrassing, or making light of them.

The only secret societies I am suspicious of and consider dangerous are the elitist type societies and clubs, such as the Bilderbergers, Bohemian Club, Trilateral Commision, and the like. This is because these societies are open only to a privilaged few, and they have the nasty habit of getting together and deciding our fates without our consent, and they are corrupt.

But I think all this Masonicphobia is one big silly red herring.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf since you are suspicious about these societies the Bilderbergers, Bohemian Club, Trilateral Commision, and the like. Look at the list of just a few masons who attend/attended these little get togethers.

40 Ronald Wilson Reagan, 1981-1989 R
Bohemian Club, Honory Mason

Gerald R. Ford, 1974-1977 R
Bohemian Club, The Bilderberg Group, honorary Mason of the DeMolay-Legion of Honor, Council on Foreign Relations

36 Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1963-1969 D
Entered Apprentice Mason, Council on Foreign Relations

33 Harry S Truman, 1945-1953 D
33rd Degree Masons,Council on Foreign Relations

32 Franklin Deleno Roosevelt, 1933-1945 D, died
33rd Degree Masons, Skull and Bones, Council on Foreign Relations

www.directoryupdate.net...

This is just a few. I'am so glad that masons make good men better While these same clowns were living by this moto they were burning a mock human in a sacrifice to a owl. At a all male encampment that had gay porn stars flown in to service people. Yeah nothing more then a charity frat

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[edit on 6/4/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Look at the list of just a few masons who attend/attended these little get togethers.

Were any of the attendies Christian? Catholic? If many of the attendies were golfers, does that mean golfers are evil elite rulers of the world? Since they were all male does that mean all men are evil? If a man joins the masons to get ahead politically, that is wrong yet I am sure it happens just as you see politicians exploiting church services for political reasons. What percentage of masons attend The Bohemian Grove? I bet there are more golfers in attendance than masons. Golfing is just a front for the elite to make there plans in private. Why else would they stand out in a pasture playing with little balls?

Originally posted by RedPill


Were any of the attendies Christian? Catholic? If many of the attendies were golfers, does that mean golfers are evil elite rulers of the world? Since they were all male does that mean all men are evil? If a man joins the masons to get ahead politically, that is wrong yet I am sure it happens just as you see politicians exploiting church services for political reasons. What percentage of masons attend The Bohemian Grove? I bet there are more golfers in attendance than masons. Golfing is just a front for the elite to make there plans in private. Why else would they stand out in a pasture playing with little balls?

Thank you. You saved me the time explaining that.

Im sure there are Masons in the Bilderbergers. im sure some attend Bohemian grove.

Im also certain that catholics, Protestants, golfers, gardeners, ect are involved. Does this mean all of the above are formed by evil people? No.

Masonry as an organization/fraternity is not evil or trying to take over the world. masonry is composed of loads of people worldwide of different backgrounds, from the lowest to highest. because of this cross section of humanity, it is only natural you would find masons in all sorts of places, including places of power. Im sure there are some very corrupt and evil individual Masons.

but that does not prove that masonry itseld is crooked, only a couple individual members.

Looks like things haven't changed as much as I thought...

Andy, I don't know what to tell you, dude. It's one of those things, you are going to believe what you are going to believe until you see fit to take a logical look and discard the fanaticism. Seriously.

I must say I had a preconception of Masonry too -- a good one -- and I have discovered that I actually knew little about it myself back then. I still feel the same way about it, but I know from experience that it is neither what I had worked up in my mind, nor what the anti-Masonic crowd have decided that it must be.

Masonry just is what it is. That's because each person decides for himself what to do with himself. Period. No fraternity, club, or any other group can get inside your mind and make you do something. You are who you are, regardless of demographics.

Give it some thought. In the end, you will believe what you feel is right, as I firmly believe you should. Consider the various institutions that you yourself, or anyone you know might be members of, and ask yourself: Can those institutions, in and of themselves, be held responsible for the personal choices of every individual who may be affiliated with them?

I don't think so. Do you?

Long time no see friend. Glad you found your way back.

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
What is so scary about freemasons? Is it only the Christians that are against them, or is there any anti-freemason that does NOT have religious bias?

It sure seems this way. The Christians seem to be behind the hate of homosexuals also.

I also understand there is another type of fear for the Anti-mason. The fear that those who are the majority of freemasons are really poor helpless fools that don't know the evil they are a front for.

Yet, the Antis have never been able to establish this link. How exactly could they be used as a front?

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The only secret societies I am suspicious of and consider dangerous are the elitist type societies and clubs, such as the Bilderbergers, Bohemian Club, Trilateral Commision, and the like.

Likewise. And 200 years ago I would’ve been suspicious of the freemasons for the same reason. They were elitist then. But why are the anti-masons pursuing this today?


[edit on 7/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Bush is a Christian and look how corrupt he is. All the other presidents have been mostly Catholic right?

I knew Jesus was involved with the Bilderberg Group, I mean who else but Jesus could mastermind these plots.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol

40 Ronald Wilson Reagan, 1981-1989 R
Bohemian Club, Honory Mason

Reagan was not a Mason, and there's no such thing as an "honorary Mason". He was given a certificate by the Shriners and by the Scottish Rite in recognition for service to his country. That certainly did not make him a mason.

36 Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1963-1969 D
Entered Apprentice Mason, Council on Foreign Relations

Johnson attended one Masonic meeting in his entire life, which was his own Apprentice initiation. It's safe to say that Masonry never influenced him much.

33 Harry S Truman, 1945-1953 D
33rd Degree Masons,Council on Foreign Relations

Now, finally, we have a good example of a great Mason, and possibly the greatest President of the 20th century.

32 Franklin Deleno Roosevelt, 1933-1945 D, died
33rd Degree Masons, Skull and Bones, Council on Foreign Relations

Roosevelt was never a member of Skull and Bones. He graduated from Harvard, not Yale.

Also, Roosevelt was a 32° member of the Scottish Rite, not 33°.

This is just a few.

Yet only one of them (Truman) was correct. That doesn't say much for the integrity of your post.



[edit on 7-4-2007 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
You make excellent points. Your post pretty much sums it up.

Thanks Skadi. Though I take it as both a compliment and reprimand.

I have a habit of summing things up well enough in my posts, even my opening post of new threads (not that you'll see it here around ATS yet) that I leave very little to reply to, or add to. I don't attack or flame, or try to bait anyone really...and then...I've got no one to discuss a subject with! I can't even find an oppent for Chissler's debates right now!

Here, on ATS I go about completely ignored and invisable for the most part-not that I've done much here yet, and I have had one unexpected foe on a silly subject, but it's hard because flaming is just not me-stirring the pot I don't mind a bit of ...but no flagrant flaming-thus few ATS points, not that I know what I'd do with them! But heck I don't even have a bar, nevermind the color of it! Ah, but I have fun hanging out here more than anywhere else on the web anyway.

But back on topic, intolerance of groups, or individuals by affiliation with such groups, is really a pet-peeve of mine and sometimes I just have to spout off. What got me going here, was finding some gravestones with masnic symblos on them while doing some visiting and geaneology in a cemetary last year-I took pictures and was recently looking at them and was going to post them here and ask about them...and then I saw there was quite a pro vs con mason dynamic here and ...well voila-my post.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Hell, I'm Wiccan.

hehehe sorry that struck me funny. "Hell" was a "bad" word when I was growing up...like saying it would call out demons to drag you there! So when I saw "Hell" and "Wiccan" in the same sentance it just made me lol and think of how my baptist father would run from both those words-used together no less! Yikes! Being Wiccan is not a natural religion accepted by him, it therefor must be Satantic, which explains, and is proven by, your easy use of the word....(:::::sssshhh whisper it now::::: ) "Hell"

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
While my religous rituals involve nothing scary, I certaionly like to keep them secret because I don't want idiots interrupting, harrassing, or making light of them.

Very understandable. People too often fear, mock, or devalue what they don't understand, instead of being in awe of it, and respecting the rights of others. ( I almost typed "rites of others" )

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The only secret societies I am suspicious of and consider dangerous are the elitist type societies and clubs, such as the Bilderbergers, Bohemian Club, Trilateral Commision, and the like. This is because these societies are open only to a privilaged few, and they have the nasty habit of getting together and deciding our fates without our consent, and they are corrupt.

I understand. For me, I guess because I believe in good and evil manefested in beings to degrees, I believe both are inevitable. As there will be poor and sufferring there will be wealthy and elite....and when it comes to power, of course it will be the corrupt powerful elite who decide the fate of us little people.

I am not apathetic, I just believe you fight that evil begining in yourself. Then, by serving your family, your friends, your neighbors, your community... don't try to save the world all at once, or fear the evil-it's inevitable...but so is the good.



[edit on 9-4-2007 by 2l82sk8]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Consider the various institutions that you yourself, or anyone you know might be members of, and ask yourself: Can those institutions, in and of themselves, be held responsible for the personal choices of every individual who may be affiliated with them?

I don't think so. Do you?

Axeman, thank you for your post and good points.

Though I didn't mention that side of it, I agree with you and would say that there are masons, like there are Jews, Athiests, Christians of all denominations, Muslims, etc that could be murderers, rapists, liars, cheats, adulterers and pedophiles, but the acts of a few do not reflect, or let me restate that they SHOULD not reflect, on the many in their affiliated and asscoiated groups.

That is another pet peeve of mine. When someone assumes that the acts of one person, or a few people, of a certain race, color, religion, organization etc refelct on the whole.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
The Christians seem to be behind the hate

Well, thats not really what I was saying at all ConspiracyNut. It's actually another example of being biased against a large group, because of the acts of a few.

I'd never say "Christians" as a whole are behind the hate of homosexuality or anything. Im Christian, however I am not homophobic, nor do I hate anyone for being homosexual. I may be in the minority here on ATS, but it doesn't mean I am the exception and they are the rule.

What I was really questioning here, was, is it a religious bias to be ant-mason as it is a religious bias for many other things, or not? I pointed out prejudices within Christiainity religions and denominations to show that it is not even united, and they persecute one another.

I wasn't Christian bashing though, wasn't meaning to, just discussing human nature, and religious bias etc. As a Christian, I feel freer to point out the hypocrisy in Christianity at times I guess. Didn't mean to give off the wrong impression though.

Likely Masons are mostly WASPs I would hyppocritically guess if I had to pigeonhole them, and yet I was asking, by reason of eliminating other denominations and religions, Athiesm, Mormons and Catholics etc, if WASPs in general were the majority of the ones attacking masonry.

Not that there is anything wrong with being a WASP.

You have voted 2l82sk8 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You pretty much summed up..everything that is wrong with todays' society. People want to demonize that which they have little to no knowledge there of. "Oh, but so and so said..." I don't care!! If you have never studied the beliefs and customs of any religion or belief system, then one is quite unqualified to make judgments. However, don't tell too many fundamentalists that..

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

The Nazis and Communists were very anti-Mason.

Yep, Adolph Hitler was very anti-Masonic. We all know what a "great" guy he was.

[edit on 9-4-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Thank you Speakeroftruth.

I feel very understood... and validated.

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
Though I didn't mention that side of it, I agree with you and would say that there are masons, like there are Jews, Athiests, Christians of all denominations, Muslims, etc that could be murderers, rapists, liars, cheats, adulterers and pedophiles, but the acts of a few do not reflect, or let me restate that they SHOULD not reflect, on the many in their affiliated and asscoiated groups.

Ah, but they do... whether they should or not.

I think this is mainly society-at-large's problem for the most part. I'll be the first to admit sometimes I don't give people the credit they deserve based on some irrelevant factor; we all do, we're human. But I can certainly say that I don't take it to the extreme like we see here, and it is something that I am always chiseling away at.

And you're right -- those kinds of people can be anywhere. Do you think if a guy can pass as a stand up guy, be an officer of the church, for example, and fool all those people, that the same could not be done when petitioning to Masory? If there is one thing Masonry has against it in this regard it's that they take a man at his word. A couple of personal references, sure. Probably won't even get checked out, the way things are today.

At the end of it all we are our own keepers, ad no one - no institution, nor any other individual - can speak for us when we stand before Him in the end.

That is the beauty of Free Will. No one gets a free ride. We're all accountable for our choices.

[edit on 4/9/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
Well, thats not really what I was saying at all ConspiracyNut.

Sorry 2l82sk8, I should have been more specific. I meant Christian fundamentalist who hold up Leviticus 18 :22 as god-given truth.

Heck, most modern Christians completely discount the OT. (here I go generalizing again - mea culpa)


[edit on 9/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

Heck, most modern Christians completely discount the OT.

A sad state of affairs, to be sure. How on Earth can people expect to understand Christianity and be completely (or at leat mostly) ignorant to its roots?

It's like trying to undertand Geometry without first understanding basic arithmetic. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I find it no small coincidence that those same types of people are the ones who are most vocally against Masonry. Make no effort to understand, and yet fear what you do not understand...

It's really quite sad, IMO.

Heck, most modern Christians completely discount the OT.

The Axeman said: A sad state of affairs, to be sure. How on Earth can people expect to understand Christianity and be completely (or at leat mostly) ignorant to its roots?

It is not sad to me at all. Christ spoke of a God of love,light, forgiveness and compassion. The OT speaks of a mean and vengeful god... Nothing to be sad about. I have little regard for the OT other than the Ten Commandments.



[edit on 10-4-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Masonic light that's the best you can come up with. Ronald Reagan has often been referred to as a Freemason. President Reagan is not a Freemason although he is an honorary member of the Imperial Council of the Shrine. President Reagan has on numerous occasions been involved in Shrine and Masonic functions throughout his career."

Yeah nice try with that one Light

If Johnson would have continued he would have been a mason. He went to one meeting. He proably thought twice. Being pulled around by another man, blind folded, half naked, and being part of a all male club made him think otherwise.

As for Rose. He's a brother none the less. As is Ford how has had his fair share of fun at the Bo Ho club.

IS MASONRY A RELIGION?

(Essay excerpts; source noted below.)


The major issue in determining whether Masonry is a religion is to look at its demands on the candidate. Masonry requires the candidate to believe in God, obey Him, worship Him, seek His guidance, and so forth, which qualifies it as a religion. And, as I have already documented, Masonry claims its members will earn admittance to heaven based on personal character and good works. This also classifies the Lodge as a religion. In fact, any standard dictionary or encyclopedia definition of religion proves beyond doubt that Masonry is a religion. Dr. Shildes Johnson is only one of many scholars of comparative religion who have concluded: "A comparison of the moral, allegorical, and symbolic teachings of Freemasonry with these definitions of a religion reveals that the lodge is a theistic, non-Christian, man-centered, and universal religion."

All this is why numerous leading Masonic authorities have publicly confessed that Masonry is, in fact, a religion. For example:

Albert G. Mackey: "The religion of Masonry is cosmopolitan, universal...."

Henry Wilson Coil: "Religion is espoused by the Masonic Ritual and required of the candidate"; and, "Freemasonry is undoubtedly religion"; and, "Many Freemasons make this flight [to heaven] with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry."

Albert Pike: "Masonry...is the universal, eternal, immutable religion...."

Joseph Fort Newton: "Everything in Masonry has reference to God, implies God, speaks of God, points and leads to God. Not a degree, not a symbol, not an obligation, not a lecture, not a charge but finds its meaning and derives its beauty from God the Great Architect, in whose temple all Masons are workmen."

Excerpts, "THE MASONIC LODGE AND THE CHRISTIAN CONSCIENCE," John Weldon, Christian Research Institute

So Masonic Light, So you are saying you know more about why Masonry should not consider itself a religion than Albert Mackey, Joseph Fort Newton, Albert Pike, and Henry Wilson Coil, right? They all KNEW what it was - a religion. But you say you know more than they, right?

You say you are a Mason in your local lodge, yet you know most assuredly that the institution is not a religion -- despite the evidence that these four Masonic authors wrote extensively about, and devoted their lives to, delineating the various religious aspects.

Are you sure you want to insist that you know more about the innate nature of the institution than these four and others? I like many others here are merely showing the layers of deceit and subterfuge that Masonry builds around all its members. You yourself refuse to accept logical arguments and choose to "think for yourself," as you say.

But by refusing to accept logic, who is proving himself closed-minded in this discussion? Who refuses to consider the overwhelming evidence - that Freemasonry is indeed a religion -- without any support of his position rejecting same?

The four gentlemen I quoted are sine qua non four of the top ten or so of the most famous Freemason authorities of all time, yet you dismiss them out of hand because you are set in your beliefs. These four - Pike, Mackey, Coil, and Fort Newton - are REVERED in the Scottish and York Rites especially because of their "mastery" of the true secrets of the craft. You can find plenty of information about any one of them on the Internet. I would be happy to give you several website references so you could judge for yourself, but somehow you leave the impression, like so many other closed-minded Masons, that you are oblivious to written proof by these famous Masons and others --admitting and even boasting that it is a religious institution.

Your local lodge library should have copies of each of their important contributions to Freemasonry. If not, your lodge librarian is being delinquent in his duties to have such basic materials for all Masons in your lodge.

Pike and Mackey in particular vested their entire adult lives in writing hopefully persuasive books touting Freemasonry as the religion above all other sectarian religions.

In an earlier post, I recommended not only the essay, The Masonic Lodge and the Christian Conscience, but also the sermon, Freemasonry and Christianity, by the late Alva McClain. McClain uses Mackey's definitive work on Freemasonry to prove the point we have all been making with you. Just read the sermon, that's all.

And we could have a discussion then where you could argue any point therein; yet I reserve the same opportunity to rebut and support my position as best I choose.

But you seem far too closed-minded and seem to dismiss what we are helping you to see: the validity and overwhelming support for our thesis that Masonry is indeed a religion based on another god separate from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How many Protestant denominations, and the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Christianity in all branches, have stated formal positions and written long explanations of why Masonry is a religious institution that is paganistic and is devoted to serving false gods? You tell me.

If you decide that Masonry is a better religion for you than Christianity, that is fine. If men so choose, that is fine. The Bible says you will be asked for an account of why you rejected Jesus. Make your case before God as you are elevated to what your institution calls, "the celestial lodge above." Me, I shudder at having to tell God I did not believe in Jesus but chose instead to believe in the teachings of Masonry and the supremacy of something called Jahbulon.