Catastrophic Superconductor failure at CERN

Originally posted by stfspam
So im not really able to follow that well, and I apologize if I missed it,

Is this just one object in the LHC or is it a series of badly made objects that will need to be replaced?

There are nine of these 43 foot long units. Even if only one of them failed, every single one of them will have to be replaced to ensure proper function and safety.

Having spoken to individuals who work in particle physics and particle accelerators, they were quite disheartened, and indicated that it would most likely be a time consuming upgrade process. The newer replacement part has to be designed and reengineered to handle the stress loads before they can begin to fabricate them. The fabrication process requires very precise machine tolerances on a large custom piece of metal alloy. Then it will have to go through several pre qualifying tests before they decide to go ahead and produce the needed replacement parts for all nine quadrupole units. Each replacement upgrade part will undergo x-ray analysis before it passes quality control. On top of all this they still have to remove the faulty parts and install the replacements. There may be additional work to the unit required to accommodate the replacement part. Since the quadrupole is 43 feet long, underground, and an ocean away from Fermilab, this whole process is going to take a good deal of time to complete.


[edit on 1-4-2007 by Terapin]

Originally posted by stfspam
Is this just one object in the LHC or is it a series of badly made objects that will need to be replaced?

There are nine of these 43 foot long units. Even if only one of them failed, every single one of them will have to be replaced to ensure proper function and safety.


Orrrrrrrrrrrrr......they could see if Wal-Mart or Winners has a shipment coming in from China. You never know what you'll find there!

Originally posted by Terapin
Remember, those same kooks said that testing the first nuclear device would set the atmosphere on fire and incinerate the Earth.

Actually, I think it was Teller that first brought up the possibility. The "set on fire" part was an oversimplification by the press, I think, the actual issue was whether or not enough heat would be created to toggle off a Bethe solar phoenix using atmospheric CO2 and water vapor.

It caused a bit of turmoil, work stopped for a few days, many a hypothesis was put forward, a lot of math was cranked through, and they came to the conclusion that there was no yield at which a Bethe cycle could be started given the composition of the atmosphere, density etc.

However, at the test, Fermi was taking bets on whether Teller was right to begin with and they'd just got the maths wrong.

That said, it's a shame this happened. I wonder if the specs given to Fermilab included the requirement to resist this sort of load? It would be interesting to find out at which point the process went awry.

Heh. Does some DOE lab have a similar project upcoming? Maybe it's sabotage!

Too bad. But you always, ALWAYS have to iron out the bugs in every mechanical system. I know because I work in the power industry and every power plant I work at, there are constant changes to the mechanical sys. to get them to work optimally. They'll fix it I'm sure.

On a side note, I was watching a special on History channel one time about End of the World scenarios and one was a CERN type accelerator and this engineer was going to the big inauguration of the accelarator and when they powered it up, it caused a singularity to form that kept getting bigger and bigger until it destroyed the planet lol. Just wanted to let you guys know we have a little more time left now!

Originally posted by Terapin
Notice however, that is says, "Some Think," and doesn't mention any reputable scientists. There will always be anti science kooks on any given topic, but in this case they have very little understanding of the subject.

The LHC when it comes online, will open up a new world of understanding, not any worm holes to another time space continuum.

Remember, those same kooks said that testing the first nuclear device would set the atmosphere on fire and incinerate the Earth. They also said the Earth is flat, and even locked up Gallileo as a heretic, for stating that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

Given that many people still incorrectly believe that water goes down the drain in the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere, I wouldn't trust anyone's "beliefs" on the subject of accelerated particle physics, unless they have a serious scientific degree.

I think the Washington Post wouldn't ask some "kooks" who don't know how water goes down the drain to weigh in, IMHO.

I'm sure, looking at how firing it up for the first time was such a roaring success, that they know exactly what they're doing over there at CERN.

It may have opened up a black hole. Wouldnt that be a good reason to close down the project? More intersting to ponder anyway while we wait for the repairs.

I was referring to the kooks who think that the potential for generating split second micro singularities, means that the earth will thus get sucked into oblivion. It won't happen.


And for those who wish to hear about the failure from the horses mouth. Check out this report from Fermilab, the manufacturer of the failed unit: Fermilab

[edit on 1-4-2007 by Terapin]

Originally posted by antar
It may have opened up a black hole. Wouldnt that be a good reason to close down the project? More intersting to ponder anyway while we wait for the repairs.

Nope, because they hadn't gotten that far with it yet..

They were Testing the LHC when the failure happened and they never did any particle acceleration.

If a micro-singularity was formed it would only last for microseconds. Theory does allow for the small possibility that they might form, but no one expects it to occur on the first start up. It may never happen in any case.

Here is some further information regarding the science being done at the LHC that should answers many of your questions about the project. This, and further information, can be found at the CERN web page.

Cosmic rays are continuously bombarding Earth's atmosphere and every second several of these particles-known as muons- pass through your body with very much more energy than protons will have at the LHC. They have done so throughout the 4.5 thousand million years of the Earth's existence and, as you know, the Earth is still here!
In fact, particle physics research has its roots in the study of cosmic rays during the first part of the 20th century, when particles that do not make up the ordinary matter of atoms were first discovered in cosmic rays reaching ground level. Particle accelerators were built from the 1930s onwards essentially because it is difficult to perform experiments with cosmic rays which arrive at unpredictable times from random directions; far better to perform an experiment under controlled conditions in the laboratory.

Although the energy concentration (or density) in the particle collisions at the LHC is very high, in absolute terms the energy involved is very low compared to the energies we deal with every day or with the energies involved in the collisions of cosmic rays. However, at the very small scales of the proton beam, this energy concentration reproduces the energy density that existed just a few moments after the big bang – that is why collisions at the LHC are sometimes referred to as mini big bangs.

Safe operation of the LHC requires correct operation of several systems: collimators and beam absorbers, beam dumping system, beam monitoring, beam interlocks, quench protection systems.

According to some theoretical models, tiny black holes could be produced in collisions at the LHC. They would then very quickly decay into what is known as Hawking radiation (the tinier the black hole, the faster it evaporates) which would be detected by experiments. Cosmic rays with very much more energy than that available at the LHC, could also in principle produce black holes. However no evidence for such phenomena has so far been found.

Hopefully, this information will lead to a better understanding of the project and the complexity it involves.

I remember watching a documentary on the construction of particle accelerators. Those magnetic assemblies are exceedingly sensitive, and easily ruined. Though there doesn't appear to be any visual signs of damage, no doubt the damage is in fact quite extensive. I wouldn't be suprised if that assembly had to be removed entirely and replaced again.

Originally posted by Terapin
I was referring to the kooks who think that the potential for generating split second micro singularities, means that the earth will thus get sucked into oblivion. It won't happen.

The reason it won’t happen is simple physics... A micro singularity would evaporate in less than 10^27 seconds, due to hawking radiation.

I personally find the generation of MBH an exciting prospect as it may underline a founding principle of Loop Quantum Gravity.

In LQG black holes are made of dense regions of space-time, in other words the mass a black hole has is in directly in proportion to the total spatial surface area that region of space-time has.

The BH is composed of densely compact braided space-time.

Now how would the LHC and MBHs help in discovering this??? Well LQG predicts that where there is a black hole there is a low density field surrounding the BH. If you like space time has to have a low density around the BH to balance the high tension the BH creates within Space-time.

So to hear that there will be a delay is a point of frustration for me.

Fingers crossed that the budget will more than enough to cover for any repairs/mods that are required.

I wonder why this hasn't hot the mainstream media??

Anyway, Thank Terapin for keeping us up to date.

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

I have come up with a link that has a photo of the failed part, and a detailed description of what was going on at the time of the test. You can check it out here: Cosmic Variance

The failure occurred during a test which simulated what the magnet might experience during a “quench” which is when some part of the superconducting cable inside the magnet suddenly goes “normal” and then resists the flow of the huge current in it. This releases heat, of course, causing the rest of the superconducting material to go normal. Liquid helium boils rapidly, creating large asymmetric pressures inside the magnet cryostat. These pressures can reach 20 bar, and it was during a 20-bar test that this particular magnet failed. No one was in the LHC tunnel when it happened - it must have been quite a sight, and sound, though.

The damage does not appear to be as bad as I thought based on Fermilabs description. From the photo, it was a much smaller area than I thought, and after looking at it, no wonder it failed. It looks like they will be able to engineer a solution in short order. This is GREAT news!


Edited to add a link to CERN if anyone wishes to look over the project in depth. CERN

[edit on 2-4-2007 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Terapin
The damage does not appear to be as bad as I thought based on Fermilabs description. From the photo, it was a much smaller area than I thought, and after looking at it, no wonder it failed. It looks like they will be able to engineer a solution in short order. This is GREAT news!

Yeah it appears they were actually testing the limits of the materials and seals used.

of course the equipment should never really reach a point where there is a 20 bar pressure being exerted at any point in operations, unless there is a serious malfunction.

I guess they have to test for all possible outcomes when dealing with such high energy particle beams.

I'll keep my ear to the ground on this one, Great news!!

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

Fermilab has released a new report on the current situation. They have identified the problem and are working on coming up with a solution. The damaged Quadrupole will be removed to inspect for any further damage, and for any possible damge to the magnets and cryosphere. Once a new design has been approved, perhaps sometime in late April, they will begin to replace all support units in all 43 Quadrupoles. It is estimated that if all goes well, they may be able to run a pressure test on June 1st.

You can read the full press release here: Fermilab Report

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Heh. Does some DOE lab have a similar project upcoming? Maybe it's sabotage!

A-HA! I was right! It's a CONSPIRACY!

Coincidentally, Fermilab stands to gain most from delays at Cern. Its researchers also operate a rival but less powerful particle accelerator, the Tevatron.

Fermilab staff are pushing the Tevatron to ever-higher energies hoping that they might find the Higgs boson before the LHC switches on. An LHC researcher said: “Ironically, this delay could be all they need.”

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Yesssss...irony...or could it be sabotage? HMM?

They're gonna make a black hole, and and and then somethings gonna break, and and and then the black hole is gonna get out and start eating everything, and and and then everyone's gonna die!

We're all gonna die!@#$^%!

Here is a great article that describes a HUGE BANG, when the LHC went wonky and sort of blew up. People working there freaked out and the fire department had to respond and evacuate everyone.

Big Bang at the atomic lab after scientists get their maths wrong

Work on the LHC continues despite previous problems and a new milestone has been reached. Over the past several months since January, Scientists at CERN have begun the process of cooling down the dipole magnets to place them into superconducting form. Beginning with liquid nitrogen for the first phase and moving onto a sophisticated pumping system involving boiling Helium, a new record of coldness has been achieved, 1.9k, colder than Space itself!!! At this temperature helium becomes a superfluid flowing with virtually no viscosity and allowing a higher heat transfer.

The have managed to cool sector 7-8, which is 3.3 kilometers long, consists of more than 200 dipole magnets and is the most complex cryogenics system ever made. Ten years of design work and remarkable engineering have paid off!!!!

Congratulations are in order to the Scientists who have achieved this remarkable milestone.

CERN Announcement
Hardware Commissioning Coordination
CERN Press Release

Originally posted by Terapin
The have managed to cool sector 7-8, which is 3.3 kilometers long, consists of more than 200 dipole magnets and is the most complex cryogenics system ever made. Ten years of design work and remarkable engineering have paid off!!!!

That is amazing; this is only 2 degrees above absolute zero.

To sustain such a temp for any length of time is an awesome achievement but to do it over such a large distance, is simply ground breaking.

This achievement could pave the way for superconductivity into the realms of every day life such as...



There is work underway to experiment with Super Fluidity that could reproduce the effects of superconductivity without the need to cool materials to such low temperatures.

Thank you Terapin for the updates. I am literally itching for the LHC first true test run later this year.

All the best,



NeoN HaZe.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by Neon Haze]