Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

Where do people constantly come up with the idea that Masons -obey- the Worshipful Master?

I've seen lots of conspiracy theories and other crap, but I've not seen anyone explain or even seen enough information to explain why so many people think we are bound to -obey- the Master. (I guess I can see from a round-about way you'd get that the title "Worshipful Master" means he's Master of everything...but we're all Master Masons...so yeah).

I guess what gets me is that our organizational structure is similar to almost all organizations. A guy at the top, 2 guys following him, a guy to watch the money, and a guy to handle the paperwork...I've yet to see an organization that doesn't have something similar.

Anyway, my question is there any myth or something that I've missed, that explains why peole think we -obey- the Worshipful Master or is it just an argument of semantics?

Originally posted by Kerosene
How can you tell freemasons are free if you have to swear to keep secret and to obey the worshipful master?

We don't have to "obey" the master of the lodge, except maybe from a procedural point of view (like the Speaker of the House in Congress, for example). Freemasonry is a democratic institution. I'm not sure how it works in other jurisdictions, but in mine, the Worshipful Master is elected and serves a one year term.

Hitler was elected, right? Many dictator's was too.

Furthermore do I promise and swear that a Master Mason’s secrets, given to me in charge as such, and I knowing them to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable in my breast as in his own, when communicated to me, murder and treason excepted; and they left to my own election

Free to speak?

Not at all.


and what about the third degrees vow?

Further do I promise and swear that I will obey all regular signs, summonses, or tokens given, handed, sent, or thrown to me from the hand of a brother Master Mason, or from the body of a just and lawfully constituted lodge of such

"


Free of your own act?

Neither.

Further do I promise and swear that I will not speak evil of a brother Master Mason, neither behind his back nor before his face, but will apprise him of all approaching danger, if in my power

Free to denounce a brother?

No way.

They even decide the way you will walk in lodge.

For the first year, an entered apprentice is not allowed to talk in lodge.....

But he is free.... yep he is free to join or not the free-masonry, but if he join, he's not free anymore.

You have to lie to keep secret, it's bad.

From the Anderson's constitution.

4. BEHAVIOUR in presence of Strangers NOT MASONS.
You shall be cautious in your Words and Carriage, that the most penetrating Stranger shall not be able to discover or find out what is not proper to be intimated, and sometimes you shall divert a Discourse, and manage it prudently for the Honour of the worshipful Fraternity.

And what about equality if there's degrees in F-M and so many role in lodge?

Originally posted by Kerosene
Hitler was elected, right?

Wrong.

Show me something which supports your absurd allegation, and I'll show you Nazi death warrants for Freemasons.

Actually, forget it.

I've read a few more of your posts, and the context in which you view all of these things is only ever piecemeal, and only ever to validate your pre-suppositions.

reply to post by Roark




OK

In 1929 Hitler led a political campaign against the Young Plan of reparations payments.

In the May 5 elections of 1932, Hindenburg defeated Hitler 53% to 37% for the presidency, but there was no majority in the Reichstag for any party; in the July31 elections the Nazis won 230 seats with 37% of the vote and became the largest German party, but dropped to 33% in the Nov. 6 elections; Dec. 1, Kurt von Schleicher replaced Franz von Papen as Chancellor but instability increased.

Hitler made Chancellor Jan. 30, 1933, with the help of von Papen, and sought revision of Versailles system by immediately beginning a rearmament program with the support of industrialists such as Alfred Hugenberg and Gustav Krupp (who by April agreed to remove Jewish workers from his factories), and a public works program announced at the Feb. 11 International Automobile and Motor-Cycle Exhibition in Berlin, to build autobahns with 600,000 workers and make a Volksauto for less than 1000 marks.

history.sandiego.edu...

Bush was elected too....

But my point is simple, "SNIP" can be elected.

It's mean when someone says freemasonry is a democracy it's mean nothing at all, it doesn't mean freemasonry is good.


Mod Edit expletive deleted





[edit on 9/27/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

Originally posted by Roark
Actually, forget it.

I've read a few more of your posts, and the context in which you view all of these things is only ever piecemeal, and only ever to validate your pre-suppositions.

Coward, you know what will happen, so you flee.

Originally posted by Kerosene
But my point is simple, "SNIP" can be elected.

Sure, I'd agree with you there, but you should really watch your language.

Originally posted by Kerosene
It's mean when someone says freemasonry is a democracy it's mean nothing at all, it doesn't mean freemasonry is good.

It doesn't mean that its bad either; so what is your point? Personally, I'd prefer to belong to an organization where the leadership isn't static, I think that's a healthy thing.


Mod Edit Expletive Deleted




[edit on 9/27/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

Originally posted by Kerosene
Coward, you know what will happen, so you flee.

Wow. That was rude, and over the top.

Originally posted by Kerosene
Hitler was elected, right? Many dictator's was too.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were referring to his election to an Office in Freemasonry.

(In another thread, you were claiming that Hitler was somehow a "creature" of Freemasonry)

Originally posted by Kerosene

Coward, you know what will happen, so you flee.

Coward?

Flee?

Flee where?

I just didn't want you to waste your valuable time responding to my response about Hitler being an elected Official within Freemasonry. Anyway, the whole thing was based on a misunderstanding.

Are you one of those guys who thinks that they're taking part in some grand battle against evil Masonic tyranny and corruption?

I can't think why you would use the word "coward" otherwise... I mean, this is a messageboard forum, dude.

reply to post by Roark


Sorry dude, many people go away when they are not able to answer question, and often, they try to throw their cowardice on me by accusing me of thing I don't write or do....

I was thinking you were one of them, my mistake.

And yeah, I repeat, Hitler was a creature of freemasonry, but it doesn't mean he was mason, it only mean he was under their influence. It's not the subject here and there's too much too say about that, so I stop here.

Again, sorry.


[edit on 29-8-2007 by Kerosene]

Originally posted by Kerosene

They even decide the way you will walk in lodge.

For the first year, an entered apprentice is not allowed to talk in lodge.....

But he is free.... yep he is free to join or not the free-masonry, but if he join, he's not free anymore.

You have to lie to keep secret, it's bad.

Dude, where do you get this stuff?
Seriously...

Oh, and by the way, behave yourself.
I'm tired of going away for a few weeks and coming back to petty bickering.
Y'all can debate all you want, that's why we're here, but follow the rules of conduct that we all agree to when we join ATS.
And, yes, I'm demanding it.

i have a question .....when a mason gets to 33degree do they become enlightened and if so what is this enlightenment

what knowledge and wisdom are you ment to have by then? or is tht a secret?

page 13 is tht symbolic



[edit on 26-9-2007 by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H]

Originally posted by wu kung

Originally posted by Kerosene

They even decide the way you will walk in lodge.

For the first year, an entered apprentice is not allowed to talk in lodge.....

But he is free.... yep he is free to join or not the free-masonry, but if he join, he's not free anymore.

You have to lie to keep secret, it's bad.

Dude, where do you get this stuff?
Seriously...

i was wondering the same thing. ive come across some strange claims on the internet regarding masons, but this is all new to me.

Originally posted by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H
i have a question .....when a mason gets to 33degree do they become enlightened and if so what is this enlightenment

what knowledge and wisdom are you ment to have by then? or is tht a secret?

Masonic degrees do not give any sort of knowledge, wisdom, or enlightenment that is not also available to everyone else. The 33rd degree makes a Mason an honorary member of the Supreme Council. It does not guarantee him enlightenment.

Originally posted by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H
i have a question .....when a mason gets to 33degree do they become enlightened and if so what is this enlightenment

what knowledge and wisdom are you ment to have by then? or is tht a secret?

Masonic degrees do not give any sort of knowledge, wisdom, or enlightenment that is not also available to everyone else. The 33rd degree makes a Mason an honorary member of the Supreme Council. It does not guarantee him enlightenment.

COURTESY AND DECORUM will be maintained on ATS.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should resort to name-calling or personal attacks of any kind. This is something that would probably benefit all of society, unfortunately, in "the real world", this is something we can only hope and wish for. On ATS, however, Courtesy and Decorum is something that we can demand and enforce.


Please Review the ATS T&C

Courtesy is Mandatory

Civility and Decorum are Expected

reply to post by wu kung



Ah, friend, so you have not vanished entirely from the world huh? Long time no see.

Sorry dude, many people go away when they are not able to answer question, and often, they try to throw their cowardice on me by accusing me of thing I don't write or do....

There really is no need for your attitude, I do not understand why you are so angry. Why do all anti-Masons seem so angry??

I am sure if you ask your questions in a nice, orderly civilized manor someone will be glad to answer.. even if you wish to debate it should still be done in a civilized manor.. Many people will ignore you and not answer your questions, and though you call it being a "coward" its more likely your obnoxious.

And yeah, I repeat, Hitler was a creature of freemasonry, but it doesn't mean he was mason, it only mean he was under their influence. It's not the subject here and there's too much too say about that, so I stop here.

Your right, Hitler was not a Mason, and further more he was not under any Masonic influences...

But do tell, what exactly IS a Masonic Influence...... Quite confused as to what that is.

Go back a few pages and there is a bit of information on Germany, Hitler and Jews of the Second World War.

i have a question .....when a mason gets to 33degree do they become enlightened and if so what is this enlightenment

People can see "enlightenment" in many aspects.. As for getting to the 32nd degree .. it takes a day or two to achieve.. not that it should take away from what it is, to be a 32nd, thats just the way its recieved. The 33rd is honorary, and in no way means your better then anyone else.. The enlightenment is again, subject to ones own interpretation. I would hope they are truly enlightened, a further understanding of their self, and their place in the world around them, and are fully aware of most aspects of Masonry.. but the actual enlightenment is personal.. there is no Grand Masonic Enlightenment Prize that all Masons get the same exact thing during their own ventures.. People mistake Masonry for being way to orderly in its teachings that "this is this, follow it for a year and you will get this and that, like everyone else." .. It's not like that, if you get what I am trying to say here..... It is quite possible for a 33rd to remain completely ignorant to all things, but played the game well. There is politics in all aspects of Human life.

Hi guys, great thread.

My question is: what exactly are the pre-requisites for a prospective member?

reply to post by troppo_ozstyle


Of mature age, with sound morals and a belief in a Supreme Being.

HTH
Fitz