What type of government allows this to happen

Today, in London , yet another "young life has been taken by a bullet!
The 15 yr old named "Billy Cox (R.I.P.) was shot in his "own house" this is the 3rd killing in two weeks, of CHILDREN getting killed

When the bloody hell is the POXY government going to realise that unless they do something drastic in relation to crimes and their sentences, the type of thing mentioned above is NOT going to stop, its NOT going to go away.

I am so bloody angry.
These people are children, they are getting killed in front of other children, parents, neighbours, the SCUM who do this type of thing have no fear, why?
Because our so-called government (thats a laugh) want to be tough on crime but guess what if you behave really well in prison we will let you out after a short time.

The SCUM killers who plague our cities have no fear of the Authorities or the sentance they "may" recieve, if they ever get caught?

The authorities are tied up with red tape in what they can and cant do in order to catch SCUM, the courts are tied by regulations on the sentancing they can hand out to the SCUM.

In order to bring things "under control", because no matter what you may hear or read in any media (left or right) This country is "out of control"
We need a complete change!!
Do away with the PC correctness, so what if a SCUM has been good in prison Dont let him out early, let him serve his sentance , he got 10yrs , he serves 10 yrs....
Deterrent...haha dont make me laugh
If they have a gun/knife then at some point they will have "intention to use" therefore lock them up!!!!
If they kill someone...no not life in prison with a playstation ,3 meals a day, visits from your friends ,who now think your a hero, somewhere to sleep, no financial worries.......DEATH!!!!
WTF should i and you pay to keep these SCUM alive?

We do not live in a civilized society anymore, these three children have been murdered!! by SCUM with guns, yes these are just children who will not be going back to school after the holidays


I just really cannot get me head round this, take away the colour, the religions, the race, it dosent matter, this is happening on the streets of our country and im sick to death of it.

The two year old murdered the other day by a 21 yr old male , possible sexual assult on that young girl also.
I mean come on people ...WAKE-UP, dont let the Do-gooders say "with rehabilitaion" we can turn these people around....NO THEY CANT!
Peadophiles CANNOT be rehibiltated and why should i or you pay to keep them in prison, no not life in prison with a playstation ,3 meals a day, visits from your friends ,who now think your a hero, somewhere to sleep, no financial worries.......DEATH!!!!

I dont care who is in government i just want all this S**t to STOP!!!
and it wont when they do the sofly softly, approach, and get a human rights lawyer involved, and ask someone else up the chain of command, "are the SCUM's human rights being breached"...

People , we really do need to wake up!!!
This, all this killing of innocent children and adults, is going to bring this country down, down to a point of NO Return.

I want a government that is not affraid to say something, that some people might find offensive, that might do something to criminals that the lawyers feel have breached their rights , so what they have commited a crime and in doing so were fully aware of the consequences and will now have to pay, what about the victims human rights?

Whatever side of the fence you are on , right or left, whatever colour you are, whoever you pray to, STAND UP NOW AND PUT A STOP TO THIS TYPE OF THING!!!!!!

Thanks for letting me have my rant

Your implication that this British Gov gives permission and/or "allows" this sort of crime is just silly, spymaster.

There is gun crime and murder under all sorts of Gov.s, the world over.

Contrary to the impression some prefer to hold crime here is falling -

Gun crime in England and Wales dropped by 14% last year, the murder rate was down by 9% and overall crime has remained broadly stable, according to Home Office figures published yesterday.

www.guardian.co.uk...

A snapshot of crime in 2005/06
Here are some significant crime statistics from our most recent research, Crime in England and Wales 2005-2006:

shows the risk of being a victim of crime is 23% - the lowest level since the British Crime Survey began in 1981

reveals crime has fallen by 44%, representing 8.4 million fewer crimes
shows domestic burglary and

all vehicle thefts falling by over a half (59% and 60% respectively)

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

This Government has not just stood idly by and not done anything.

They have introduced several measures (and are now on the verge of altering their own recent new law, which gave people over 21 an automatic minimum of 5 years for being caught with a gun, down to 17).

news.bbc.co.uk...

This idiotic BS 'gangsta' macho culture is a problem, I agree,
(and by the reports about him on the news tonight Billy Cox was very much involved and connected to this 'world') but flying off the handle and ignoring the facts of the situation don't really help anyone.

Sminkey hello i knew it wouldnt take you long to get this one ..lol

But whilst i admire your research, and aptitude for statistics, i do think that perhaps you "are the one thats believes everything " he reads in a paper/report i do not mean that as an insult mate.
You are an intelligent and well read person, but perhaps it may be you who is being mislead?

But surely you do realise that a large proportion of crime still goes unreported!
Give it another week and we will see reports of "gun crime at an all time low"
i thinks this is one time when i would Strongly disagree with any figures you showed me that say that crime is falling!

I agree that crime will be around no matter what government are in power, but it is no good producing all the reports to say that crime is falling if it is NOT backed up on the streets.

Ask the average person on the street (anyone over the age of 21)
if they feel safe?
the answere you will get is NO
Ask the OAP if they feel safe going to collect the pensions?
the answere you will get is NO
Ask the family and friends of the children shot over the last two weeks about these crime statistics?
I'm sure that these people would strongly disagree with the figures.

Ask the people effected by crimes such as the shootings, those effected by peadophiles, by muggings, robberies, and so on, dont rely on those "fantastic reports" that this POXY government seem so eager to hand out to all & sundry when things get too heavy for them?

Sminkey, my implication that the government ,was not, that it gives permission for this sort of thing to happen, But, YES, it allows it to happen, like it or not, this elected government is NOT doing enough mate.

So in their big crackdown on crime, they have lowered the age from 21 to 17 to recieve a minimum of 5 "very soft" yrs in jail, with good behaviour and a few social reports, and a promise "not to do it again" they will be out in 3yrs.....MMMMM hardly a deterrant is it?

Forgive but i thought it was illegal to carry a firearm in the uk?
So, i ask this is a minimum 5yrs really a deterrant?
What on earth would you want/need to carry a firearm in the first place, if it wasnt to KILL?

The new law should be:
"armed with intent to kill and or maim"
sentance: LIFE.without the possibilty of parole,

Entirely the wrong question.

What we should be asking is what kind of society have WE become that WE allow this to happen. Now of course, we don't invite murderers to stalk our streets any more than the Government does but to stand in amazement and say to the Government what have you done? how could you allow this? is an abject dereliction of the responsibilities of US, both as individuals and communities.

I'm not suggesting that private citizens should be charging around like vigilantes, righting wrongs and bringing the bad guys to some form of natural justice, but neither can we just assume that we can sit back and let someone else do all the hard stuff.

We have changed our communities by living in a more impersonal and isolated state barely speaking to our neighbours even assuming we actually know their names. We demand a less intrusive Government which costs us less and demand a higher standard of living than ever before and we give them hell if our taxes go up to pay for it.

The evils in our society reflect the dark side of the lifestyle we demand. Isolation and ever growing demand can be reflected in private and comfortable lives for those that can afford it but materialise as intolerance and exclusion for those that either cannot or do not subscribe to the glorious vision that others with influence and wealth promote.

I don't wish to be judgmental without knowing all of the facts but as Sminkey has already suggested many of the victims of recent horrific crimes are far from innocent. Kids rarely walk into houses and blow the heads off other kids just for the hell of it and much of what we have seen lately will stem from gang warfare and criminal actions which have not gone to plan. But where the victims are true innocents, such as the poor poor two year old raped and murdered, allegedly by her twenty one year old uncle in her own home, we have to look to those who should have protected them, where the hell were that child's parents when that horrific crime took place or should a member of the Government have been standing by ready to save her?

I don't know where they were in that instance but how many cases can you think of where a child's parents would have been in the pub or playing bingo rather than being with their child? I hope for the sake of their sanity that they can honestly look in the mirror and be confident that they were doing something important or worthwhile while their daughter who depended on them for every tiny element of her security and health was having the life crushed out her body.

When we read of appalling events in our midst we should look to ourselves and our own selfishness for explanations rather than immediately seeking comfort in trying to use some faceless politician for a whipping boy.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. I would happily wager a significant sum of money that the most if not all of the murders in South London in the last few days are more or less directly related to the drugs business with the victims anything but innocent bystanders to that trade. So if you've ever smoked a joint, or taken an illicit pill in a nightclub or done a line or two in the grubby toilet of a bar ask yourself where that stuff came from, what kind of deals were made to get it to you and what the consequences would have been if those deals had gone wrong.

You can blame the Government all you like if it makes you fell better but as long as we fail to ask the right questions of the right people then we will never find the right answers.



[edit on 15-2-2007 by timeless test]

Originally posted by spymaster
whilst i admire your research, and aptitude for statistics, i do think that perhaps you "are the one thats believes everything " he reads in a paper/report i do not mean that as an insult mate.
You are an intelligent and well read person, but perhaps it may be you who is being mislead?

- Well you're right, it's true that I didn't compile the stats and there is always the chance that they people involved in making them all the way from top to bottom are all corrupt and are all liars.....and have spent entire careers fabricating and publishing these lies.

From village cop to minor Home Office civil servant statistician.....and everyone else involved in all the other surrounding walks of life from prison governors to prison officers to journalists to solicitors and Judges and various QCs etc etc.

If you wish to then you may believe this, personally I don't.

But surely you do realise that a large proportion of crime still goes unreported!

- Of course that's true.

That is why we not only have the official Home Office stats which draws it's data from the Police records & stats but we also have the 'British Crime Survey' which tries to take account of this discrepancy.

What is the British Crime Survey?
The British Crime Survey (BCS) is a very important source of information about levels of crime and public attitudes to crime and other Home Office issues. The results play an important role in informing Home Office policy.

The BCS measures the amount of crime in England and Wales by asking people about crimes they have experienced in the last year.
The BCS includes crimes which are not reported to the police, so it is an important alternative to police records.

Victims do not report crime for various reasons.
Without the BCS the government would have no information on these unreported crimes.

The BCS helps to identify those most at risk of different types of crime, and this helps in the planning of crime prevention programmes.

The BCS looks at people’s attitudes to crime, such as how much they fear crime and what measures they take to avoid it.

The BCS looks at people’s attitudes to the Criminal Justice System, including the police and the courts.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

Give it another week and we will see reports of "gun crime at an all time low"
i thinks this is one time when i would Strongly disagree with any figures you showed me that say that crime is falling!

- Well like I said sm, if you want to believe everyone is in on a great big lie then, ok, you are free to do so.

But you will then be having to do it from the standpoint of dismissing all the records and stats (as unreliable lies).....

.....and seeing as you haven't been able to ask everyone in every town how do you know that what you think you see as the truth is true?

You can head up your own colon over this if you like but at some point I think the sensible thing is to realise the stats are pretty much the same for all and that no matter who is in power they are all we have
(in fact there have been recent changes in methodology which have increased the crime stats - a well known one is where previously a man threatening a group of 5 people would have been recorded as a single crime is now recorded as 5 crimes).

I agree that crime will be around no matter what government are in power, but it is no good producing all the reports to say that crime is falling if it is NOT backed up on the streets.

- But my point is that "the streets" (ie the Police records and the BCS records) are demonstrating falling crime.

Of course it doesn't help that we live in a fairly paranoid culture with a large tabloid culture where scary stories and lurid tales sell 'newspapers' and our TV is awash with Police/Detective & crime soaps
(has anyone ever counted up just how many of these things there are?
7 days a week, several times a day & night, murder for entertainment? Jeeez ).

Unfortunately if you won't 'go' with this perception of doom you then stand a fair chance of getting 'painted' as 'soft on crime' or denying crime exists at all, which is patently absurd.

But it is in fact you who (if you are going to dismiss & do away with the stats) who has no factual basis for your proposition (other than highly dubious tabloid sources and a shaky round of 'well everybody knows').

Ask the average person on the street (anyone over the age of 21)
if they feel safe?....I'm sure that these people would strongly disagree with the figures.

- .....and as I have pointed out in an earlier post the perception and fear of crime is often unrelated to the factual reality.

The example I gave was Greece which has one of the lowest rates of crime in the EU and yet has the highest fear of crime going on.

EU crime survey 2007

Ask the people effected by crimes such as the shootings, those effected by peadophiles, by muggings, robberies, and so on, dont rely on those "fantastic reports" that this POXY government seem so eager to hand out to all & sundry when things get too heavy for them?

- Well ok, you can either debate these issues using the same data sources everyone has ever used and work from that reasonable basis or you indulge in 'unreason' and go on a partisan 'party political' points scoring spree if you like.

I would suggest tho that using these issues in that manner is hardly in the interests of those one claims to be so bothered about.

Sminkey, my implication that the government ,was not, that it gives permission for this sort of thing to happen, But, YES, it allows it to happen, like it or not, this elected government is NOT doing enough mate.

- As I said sm, you can pretend crime started in the UK in may 1997 or you can be real about this.

Crime has been a problem under all colours of Gov here.

......and if you want to be party political about it crime doubled under the last tory Gov and it has fallen under this Gov.
If that means nothing to you then work away but the facts are still the facts.

So in their big crackdown on crime, they have lowered the age from 21 to 17 to recieve a minimum of 5 "very soft" yrs in jail, with good behaviour and a few social reports, and a promise "not to do it again" they will be out in 3yrs.....MMMMM hardly a deterrant is it?

- I have no idea; I have never been to prison.

I keep hearing all this "soft" "holiday camp" stuff and yet I am always interested that if it is so soft and easy and carefree how come it doesn't attract the very people that claim prisoners have an easier and better life than them?

.....might it just be that these tales of 'lovely' prison are garbage?

Just out of interest, have you been to prison, sm? Ever?

The only real-life people in the UK that I have ever encountered that honestly felt life was better in prison and so actually really did something about it to get imprisoned (they committed real but relatively minor) crimes to get sent back inside) were homeless men in winter.

Forgive but i thought it was illegal to carry a firearm in the uk?
So, i ask this is a minimum 5yrs really a deterrant?

- Well the illegality is already there it is the mandatory minimum sentence that is new.

Why is this principle odd to you?
Plenty of crimes now exist on the UK statute book with and without mandatory sentences.

What on earth would you want/need to carry a firearm in the first place, if it wasnt to KILL?

- Oh come on sm, don't be naive.
These idiots carry them to frighten people and to try and look hard.

Thoughts of killing someone and what that actually means (in reality) are probably quite far from their narrow horizons as they 'big themselves up' with day-dreams about the power and respect a firearm brings them.

Living in a society, as we do (you are in fact reinforcing a part of it here), that is soaked in absurd and shallow 'gangster movie' attitudes about what is correct or otherwise about our 'toothless laws' and 'ineffectual bureaucracy' and 'weak Government' and 'useless Police' and 'soft prisons' and 'criminals getting away with it' etc etc it's pretty easy to see how firearms get glamorised and the whole 'instant justice' and 'I'm armed to protect myself and my own cos no-one else can' myth is sustained.

The new law should be:
"armed with intent to kill and or maim"
sentance: LIFE.without the possibilty of parole,

- I'm not against some crimes meaning life, quite literally.

I'm not so sure just how 'free' we should be with that concept tho, particularly when it comes to individuals who are little more than very immature children.


[edit on 15-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

You may cry about "children" being shot, but these very same "children" are very much involved in the "gangsta" culture.

This particular little sod was recently tagged and given a supervision order and is suspected of being involved in drug dealing and violent crime.

Immerse yourself in that world and you can hardly expect to avoid what goes on.

No doubt the little git probably either knows other's who have committed similar murders, or perhaps has carried out muggings of his own. You don't get tagged for nothing.

Unfortunately, this invariably happens in black neighbourhoods and is generally black on black, drug induced crime.

I think this is not a problem for the Government, but rather for the Afro-Carribbean community that does little to educate it's youngsters, motivate them to do well in life, or worse yet, actually promote the "bling-bling gangsta" ideology that is so pervasive among young black men in this country.

At no time did i ever mention that i thought that these "children" were any type of angels?
At least some of them we know were involved in the drugs/gangs trade, but my arguement all along has been that there is no deterrent at all.

When someone carrys a gun or knife for "show" and things turn heated, they will inevitably use it, which is why i stated that if they are caught with such a weapon then they must go to prison, for a very long time, without all the do-gooders jumping on the bandwagon.

Sminkey, yes i do believe all politicians are liars and cheats
I never said that crime started in may 1997?? i said that we had a POXY government now, perhaps you took that phrase a little to heart?
Of course there always has and always will be a problem with crime under "any government"
But is this government doing enough?
IMO i dont think so,
We are talking about the the same Goverment who wanted to go softly softly on allowing cannibis to be sold openly on the streets of clapham, brixton, and other parts of south london and then wonder why there is an all out war?

No sminkey i have never been to prison?
wow how did i know that one was coming ..."well how can you say the prison are soft"
Well the answere to that is two fold
A)the prison system and the judicial sysytem are too soft on ALL crime, they hand out leiniant sentances for the most horrific crimes , but god forbid you dont pay your council tax, or mess around with the queens money..oh no!

B) If you are given a sentance you should serve that sentance, no time off for good behaviour or social reports or rehabilitaion days out.

You will probably answere that if i have never been in prison how do i know that its so soft..im waiting for it

You stated that the only people you have encountered who actualy felt life was better in prison than outside, were homless?
Absolute rubbish!!!

You rely on your statistics and i will continue to live in the real world.

Stumason & timeless
I agree with a lot of what you have said , the vast majority of the crime that goes on is in one way or another connected to the drug trade, the debate i was trying to put across unsuccesfully, was the fact that this government is simply not doing enough to erradicate the problem.

Stumason yes your right you dont get a "tag" for nothing, they are seen as a badge of honour along with the ASBO , but i dont call letting someone out of prison early on a "tag" a deterrent, do you?

Again ,a lot of the gun crime is related to black on black as officers from Trident have pointed out, but this is begining to spill over where innocent victims from other ethnic background are getting caught in the crossfire, directly or in-directly.

Timeless, i cant say that you are entirely wrong when you state they "we allowed" it to happen but i will say that "we dont make the law"
and it is the law that needs to be changed.
The family unit has gone and this does cause problems, it does lead children to look outside this family unit for guidence and this is ofetn the wrong type of guidence.

But my whole arguement that i was trying to put across was the fact that at the end of the day they are just kids, and it is the government who can put the "fear of god" into these kids with a change in the laws, they have no respect for authority, why?, simply because there is no deterrant whatsoever.
We can lobby all we like, we can shout till we blue in the face but at the end of the day we alone will not change the law.
This is the same government who wanted to declassify cannibis and allow it to be sold openly on the streets of south london by turning a blind eye to "deals" using this soft approach are also the same government that wants to criminalise smoking of tobbaco?

Ban guns for citizen's, and now the only people who have them are criminals? That my inpression. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

That's the problem I have with the anti-gun lobbies for all countries. Sure they will take guns out of the hands of the everyday homeowner. But the criminals will still get them and then it will be only them with guns and that aint good.

Well, if nothing else the comments on this thread should highlight the fact that dealing with crime in society is anything but simple. This should be illustrated by the fact that there is a constant call for longer prison sentences, and yet this Government, (that's the one which isn't doing enough), is currently locking up more people for longer than ever before, it's not for nothing that our prisons are quite literally overflowing. So does prison work? It doesn't appear so. I should also add that haven't been in prison either but I have a sneaky feeling that most posters on here would find the experience to be an awfully long way from a soft life.

It's very easy, of course, to say that sentences should be longer or the regime should be tougher but five years in prison is a quarter of a young kids life or maybe even more. Most of us would struggle to understand how that can possibly fail to be a deterrent to anyone and I think that we need to take into account that deterrence is a relative consideration. That is to say that five years in prison for me, five years away from my comfortable home and secure family environment is a far more severe deterrent than five years away from a poverty ridden ghetto in Peckham.

Rather than making the alternative to freedom look much more threatening we somehow have to find a way to make the alternative to prison look a lot more appealing.

Originally posted by Royal76
Didn't your Government...

Ban guns for citizen's, and now the only people who have them are criminals? That my inpression. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Technically you're sort of correct but that does not give a realistic impression of what actually happened.

In the past a tiny proportion of the public may have owned handguns for sporting purposes and it is now illegal to own them. But there has never been a culture of carrying personal firearms in the UK and I would suggest that most of us have never handled a real weapon let alone owned one for the purposes of protection. That is why so many British members so often react with a degree of incredulity to the threads on here where someone may rattle off a list of half a dozen or so guns that they own up to and including automatic assault rifles.

To emphasise the point that's been made here a couple of times, the incidents we are talking about are not street robbings or burglaries that have gone badly wrong, these are turf wars between gangs and drugs related crimes, I doubt that any of the victims were either innocents or without access to weapons of some kind.

Contrary to popular belief, you can own a gun in this country but you have to go through a pretty thorough process to get one and you must prove that you have a genuine need to own one, and that you have a secure place for it to be stored.

There are no significant groups pushing for civilians to be armed again - you could probably dig up a website or two if you searched on Google but you'll find that they're not very influential simply because the majority of British people don't want guns.

Americans I speak to tend to be a bit amazed at this - they can't understand why anyone would allow a government to take guns off them, and I see why considering the attitude towards guns in the United States. But the key to understanding why the UK gun laws are as they are is to understand the attitude of your average Briton towards a gun - they don't like people having them unless you're in the army/armed police etc.

You may have heard that the government has decided to send in armed police to the community where the latest was shot (Peckham, I think). This is most certainly not something you see every day - police in the UK aren't routinely armed and, at the last poll they did (in 2005, I think, after PC Sharon Beshenivsky was shot dead and her colleague injured in Bradford), the vast majority of police didn't want to be routinely armed.

en.wikipedia.org... < That might help explain it a bit better.

Originally posted by timeless test
Well, if nothing else the comments on this thread should highlight the fact that dealing with crime in society is anything but simple. This should be illustrated by the fact that there is a constant call for longer prison sentences, and yet this Government, (that's the one which isn't doing enough), is currently locking up more people for longer than ever before, it's not for nothing that our prisons are quite literally overflowing. So does prison work? It doesn't appear so. I should also add that haven't been in prison either but I have a sneaky feeling that most posters on here would find the experience to be an awfully long way from a soft life.

It's very easy, of course, to say that sentences should be longer or the regime should be tougher but five years in prison is a quarter of a young kids life or maybe even more. Most of us would struggle to understand how that can possibly fail to be a deterrent to anyone and I think that we need to take into account that deterrence is a relative consideration. That is to say that five years in prison for me, five years away from my comfortable home and secure family environment is a far more severe deterrent than five years away from a poverty ridden ghetto in Peckham.

Rather than making the alternative to freedom look much more threatening we somehow have to find a way to make the alternative to prison look a lot more appealing.

IMO people are not being locked up for longer, the reason we have long term problems with offenders is because they are committing a series of crimes and being imprisoned for a short time before being allowed back out where the nature of their crimes escalates but the leniancy of the sentence remains the same. This kind of serial incarcaeration becomes, like the asbo, a badge of honour. It isn't rocket science, come down on people like a ton of bricks, they're unlikely to do it again.

Assualt=5 years mandatory, if they come out and do it again 10 years, it sends out the right message, society feels it's rights are being respected and protected and the worse the offender gets the longer he is kept away from the rest of society. Prison works when govts are prepared to use it effectively.

Another problem I have with these discussions is the whole idea that prison should be somehow for the benefit of the offender, fair enough a civilised prison system that concentrates on rehabilitation is a good thing but many soft sentences spring from the overt desire to coddle the offender while offering nothing in the way of reforming the mindset and behaviour but we're suposed to believe his lawyer when he pleads to the judge that Daryll is very sorry he punched two women in the face after they asked him to cease racially abusing their friend and 120 hours community service over a prison sentence will completely alter his behaviour and make him a credit to his community. (This actually happened in my home town, guess what he got it too) IMO. First and foremost our prison service should be there to serve the public not the offender.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by ubermunche]

[edit on 16-2-2007 by ubermunche]

[edit on 16-2-2007 by ubermunche]

- I'm not against some crimes meaning life, quite literally.

I'm not so sure just how 'free' we should be with that concept tho, particularly when it comes to individuals who are little more than very immature children.

I have a problem with that Smikey in that even if they are little more than immature children they can and do commit the most corrosive and awful acts, usually inflicted on innocent members of society. Also in many cases the reaon people remain immature is because they are never called to account for their actions.




[edit on 16-2-2007 by ubermunche]

The problem is varied and deep, there are many aspects but I'll cover a few.

Life has become cheap. Life in prison means 8-10 years. Kill someone at 15 and you will be walking the streets again when you are 25. Life should mean life. To me if you take someones life away then you should forefit your own (but not literally). As for "human rights", I'm all for that as long as they are afforded the same rights they gave to their victim (ie, none)

The business of Prison overcrowding really drives me nuts. When a guy who comes up with a plot to tape the royal families phone calls gets sent to prison and a peadophile walks free then the system is going badly wrong.

Looking deeper into it, alot of it is to do with social conditioning. The governments policy of constant economic expansion means that everyone is looking to get bigger, better and faster things, and they cost money. The other contributory factor is the constant drive of education education education.

All this means that both parents are out working most of the time, so they have no time for family. The kids are in a pressure cooker environment at school with tests yearly from age 7 onwards, constant homework and no real respite. I would say that on average the "family" is together for less than two hours a day.

So the next best thing for the kid outside of family is a gang where they can "belong" and thats where the problems start , because the dealers will move in, the binge drinking starts and the cycle of stupidity begins.

The problem is not with the kids, despite how it appears to be. The problem is with the society and the culture. Politicians will never realise this because their biggest interest is being popular and getting re-elected, so instead of tackling the root causes, they come up with quick fixes, knee jerk reactions and hollow promises.

Its going to take (sadly) a major disaster in the UK before any of these lessons are learned. Maybe whats happening in London now is that disaster in motion, maybe (and I hope not) something worse will happen. Either way its going to take someone with a real long-term vision and a whole dose of reality and common sense to sort it out.

The government is NOT the only party at fault here. We do expect the Government to spend some of our taxes of policing and protection us and we can all have a big discussion on how much and what should be done.

I have not grown up wanted to own a gun, commit crime, kill people. I believe a great deal of who we become comes from our up bringing, and YES, Government does have a part in all of us growing up. If the Government was to totally responsible for our upbringing, there, should quite rightly, cries of too much Government control.

What are the parents of these people doing? Their communities? All of us have a part in the up bringing of the nation's children with Government in it many forms.

But spymaster, I can not agree with you that this is all the fault of the Government. They work with what we have provided for them and if we as citizens do not take the majority of the responsibility, then I fear we will see more sure headlines and more deaths.

As another poster has said , it is true you can hold a firearms license in the u.k., there are many tests and the keeping of any firarm is very stringent int he way it has to be loacked away.

That said , our problem in this country dosent lie with the law-abiding gun owners who use them for sport and such like, it is the people who do not own a firearms license and would never get one in a million years.

The theft, importation, use and sale of illegal firearms is the problem!

Timeless & Sminkey you both seem to be under the impresion that the government are "hard on crime" and the prisons are hell holes..hahahaha.
I take it we are talking about the same government, who only two weeks ago asked the judges to "stop " sending people to jail because they are overcrowded.
Thats hardly being tough on crime is it?

Shadow Defence Secretary Liam Fox last night said: “It’s a national disgrace that those who have broken the law should be treated better than those who are defending our freedoms.
The Home Office has admitted that 1,536 prisoners now have access to satellite TV in their cells. Officials said four state-run prisons have satellite subscriptions, allowing inmates to enjoy multi-channel entertainment in their own cells. The bill runs to £18,406 a year.
This was said after criminals in prison were given access satalite tv!!!
Thats hardly being tough on crime is it?
Oh how hard done by they are?

From oxford crown court 02-02-07:
A paedophile who sexually abused a six-year-old girl has been set free by a judge who suggested he give his victim money to "buy a nice new bicycle".
Eric Cole, who had already served jail terms for sex attacks, admitted putting his hand down the girl's trousers as she stood in her garden.
Judge Julian Hall told him: "In criminal terms, what you did was quite mild", before giving the 71-year-old a suspended sentence.
Cole was already a convicted paedophile when he attacked the girl last July.

Yep i see what you mean ..this government is really cracking the whip on crime hahahahah.DISTGUSTING

London is the most dangerous capital in the eu to live (from the financial times on 05-02-07)
A report by gallop & UN agency Unicri!
must be due to new labours get tough on crime policy. just like their promises to improve education, nhs services, get rid of the poll tax etc...

In another UN report they state Family breakdown, drink, drugs, teenage sex and fear of violence have left British children the worst off in the world's 21 richest nations.The findings are a scathing attack on Gordon Brown's claim to have lifted hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty and showed starkly how youngsters suffer when they are brought up by single parents or their families break up.

And under the Tories who last time they were in government had an apalling record on crime and its punishment. They are a gutless liberal-left party just like all the others and simply don't have the stomach to introduce the radical measures which are needed.
You see nothing is being done!

No i dont believe the statistics that this government hand out when things get heated or there is a new poll coming up, why.
The Government's Worker Registration Scheme has tallied 510,000 workers from Eastern Europe since 2004, including 308,000 Poles. But the register does not count self-employed workers or those who join the black economy.
Well thats a bit different from the figures we all had shoved done our throat last year and the year before, wasnt it?

Sminkey you asked, "do i think that from the village bobby to the top of the chain are lying and cheating", yesterday i answere yes, heres one reason why:
A police officer has admitted giving false evidence at a trial.
Sundeep Patel, 29, told Edinburgh Sheriff Court he had altered evidence to cover-up the accused man’s claim that he had acted in self-defence.
The Lothian and Borders officer, based at Bathgate in West Lothian, pleaded guilty to giving false evidence at Linlithgow Sheriff Court in July 2006.
Sentence on Patel, who blamed a culture of racist bullying in the police, was deferred for background reports.

And here is anothertaken from daily mail 3-02-07)
Tony Blair is facing fresh questions over his finances after it emerged that he and his wife Cherie are buying another house - their fifth property.
Despite owing around £4million on the four properties they already own, the Blairs have borrowed even more to buy their new property, taking their mortgage debts towards the £5million mark.
The news once again raises the question of just how the Blairs can afford their property investments, which will soon involve mortgage repayments of up to £20,000 per month.
Homeowners will also be intrigued as to how the Blairs have been able to borrow the equivalent of 25 times the Prime Minister’s salary.

Shadow Home Secretary David Davis said: 'This shows Labour is losing control of gun crime across the board, whether it be on the street or in innocent people's homes.
'Gun crime is mainly fuelled by gang warfare and drug addiction, which is a consequence of Labour's failing drugs policy.
'It is exacerbated by our porous borders which allow illegal weapons to flow into the country.' The Home Office released a blizzard of statistics yesterday, containing a variety of bad news for the embattled Mr Reid.
Overall, the British Crime Survey found that violent crime rose by 2 per cent to 2,440,000 incidents over the past year, although there were fewer serious incidents.
Overall, the total number of gun robberies - including those which took place outdoors or targeted shops, garages, post offices, banks and homes - was up 10 per cent to 4,120. The most common weapon used was the handgun.

Do you relly believe that this government has control of crime?
Do you really believe those figures that you so readily keep refering to?

No government is going to say whats going on in the "real world" 100%, i know that, but i dont like being lied to so blatantly , when i can see what is really happening, and they try to lie and cheat their way out a whole heap of s**t, by publishing some made up figures that look rosey.

And of course, the Government is representive of the electoral. We get the Government we vote for.

We only have ourselves to blame.

Originally posted by spymaster
You stated that the only people you have encountered who actualy felt life was better in prison than outside, were homless?
Absolute rubbish!!!

- No sm, that was me giving my own personal experience, it is not "rubbish", it is my own actual personal experience.

Not something off of the TV or read in a newspaper but people I have met, spoken with and knew.

Timeless & Sminkey you both seem to be under the impresion that the government are "hard on crime" and the prisons are hell holes..hahahaha.

- Timeless can answer for him/herself but I am aware that there are several 'categories' of British prison and a category A prison is quite different from a category D or open prison.

Prison security categories for men
All male prisoners are given a security categorisation when they enter prison. These categories are based on the likelihood that they’ll try to escape, and the danger to the public if they did escape. The four categories are:

category A - prisoners whose escape would be highly dangerous to the public or national security
category B - prisoners who don’t require maximum security, but for whom escape needs to be made very difficult
category C - prisoners who can’t be trusted in open conditions but who are unlikely to try to escape
category D - prisoners who are trusted enough to wander freely but must show up for daily roll calls

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

- Pretending that 'all prisons' are just like category C & D prisons is both absurd and dishonest, but this is what is done in those tabloid stories.

But at least people with half a clue know what this 'holiday camp' rubbish is based upon, sadly others who know little about the Prison Service and care even less are unlikely to be as well informed and are perfect 'fodder' for this manipulative garbage.

I take it we are talking about the same government, who only two weeks ago asked the judges to "stop " sending people to jail because they are overcrowded.
Thats hardly being tough on crime is it?

- If you think stuffing our prisons with the most minor offenders is helping the our society and justice system then I suppose you might have something of a point.

But questioning the jailing the most petty offenders (TV licence dodgers or white collar criminals for instance) is hardly new and many many people fully agree that a major part of our prison over-crowding problem is because they have many people there who should not have been sent there in the 1st place.

Macho posturing and continually crying that 'they should all just be locked up' is running into the physical reality of a lack of places......and all set against the background where we already have record numbers in prison
(hardly the obvious sign of a 'soft' policy).

We can choose to go down the US route and tolerate a vast prison population (which is kind of ironic and tragically funny as we used to slam the USSR for it's cast 'state within a state' prison regime) or we can move to a more 'Euro' system where crime is much lower and the justice system far smaller and far cheaper.

But then that requires a less unequal society.

This would seem apt -

Brits On The Edge
Updated: 08:42, Wednesday October 22, 2003

Britons are healthier, wealthier and live in a safer society but stress is undoing those feel-good factors and making people miserable, a survey suggests.

Research has found that nearly four million Britons suffer from anxiety, depression or bad nerves - a rise of 60% from 2.4 million a decade ago.

Most people believe that modern life makes them less happy than they used to be, turning Britain into an "anxiety society".

But the authors of a new book, Complicated Lives, say many anxieties are based on myths because people worry about things such as crime getting worse when in fact they are improving.

Politicians are partly to blame for "talking up" issues of concern and the media was guilty of "embellishing" stories which heightened anxieties.

"People have absorbed a host of depressing falsehoods about modern life and that's not good for anybody," said William Nelson, the book's co-author.

"Gloom-mongers might get short-term benefit, but at the cost of being taken seriously in the long run. All these institutions need to stop exploiting their authority and start earning it."
".

news.sky.com...

No i dont believe the statistics that this government hand out when things get heated or there is a new poll coming up.

- Then all you can do is give fact-free opinion
(but I suspect what you really mean is that you will ignore the figures you don't like but will be happy to use those you do like to try and score party political 'points').

If all official data is false or so suspect, then what are you on about?

Do you have you own (trustworthy) sources of statistics?
(the Daily Mail, perhaps? ....hmm, wonder where they get their raw data to twist?)

Sminkey you asked, "do i think that from the village bobby to the top of the chain are lying and cheating", yesterday i answere yes, heres one reason why:
A police officer has admitted giving false evidence at a trial.

- Oh well, that's it, case closed then.

Hundreds of thousands of people all across the UK, involved in the legal and statistic side of this, are all liars cos some cop somewhere sometime was caught doing something wrong (it was reported somewhere).

Watch out for that paranoia sm!

And here is another

taken from daily mail 3-02-07)
Tony Blair is facing fresh questions over his finances after it emerged that he and his wife Cherie are buying another house - their fifth property.
Despite owing around £4million on the four properties they already own, the Blairs have borrowed even more to buy their new property, taking their mortgage debts towards the £5million mark.

The news once again raises the question of just how the Blairs can afford their property investments, which will soon involve mortgage repayments of up to £20,000 per month.
Homeowners will also be intrigued as to how the Blairs have been able to borrow the equivalent of 25 times the Prime Minister’s salary.

- I wondered how long it would take for this to degenerate into a typically scatter-gun anti-Labour/Blair rant.

Tell you what sm, why not call the Police and contact their mortgage company, eh?

Cos even tho it's public knowledge they all seem to missed this (yet the DM hasn't).

Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, the DM is selectively reporting the story and that here might just be a lot more to this than they would have you believe?

Do you honestly think the mortgage companies look at TB & CB's earnings in such a narrow way?
Do you think that maybe the assets they already hold are part of the calculation?
Do you imagine for a moment that Cherie Booth's position as one of the countries top advocates might just come into this equation or that Tony Blair's own earnings (once out of office) will skyrocket as he does the lecture circuit and has a globally best-selling autobiography?
Do you imagine any of that figured in the determination(s) of their mortgage people giving them their mortgages, hmmmm?

Do you relly believe that this government has control of crime?

- I think in the terms you imply that that is a rather silly concept actually.

How, in a free society, is (any) Gov meant to have complete 'control' over individuals within that society?

I do not go with the idea that we are a particularly high crime society.

I don't deny there are problems, some even serious
but I think the whole 'sky falling in' proposition is grossly overdone; frankly I think that you should count yourself lucky never to have actually experienced a society where the sky (almost) really did fall in.

Do you really believe those figures that you so readily keep refering to?

- The official stats?
They're as believable as they were when the countries' political opposition tried to use them last time.

No government is going to say whats going on in the "real world" 100%, i know that, but i dont like being lied to so blatantly , when i can see what is really happening, and they try to lie and cheat their way out a whole heap of s**t, by publishing some made up figures that look rosey.

- You might find that Complicated Lives study worth a read.

You see I don't believe that you really can "see what is really happening", how could you?
Do you travel the country talking to Police, Judges, Magistrates, Prison staff & communities etc across the nation?
You simply have a set of views in accordance with your political beliefs.

Rock on with that the sm but mind out for your paranoia.

Originally posted by ubermunche
I have a problem with that Smikey in that even if they are little more than immature children they can and do commit the most corrosive and awful acts, usually inflicted on innocent members of society. Also in many cases the reaon people remain immature is because they are never called to account for their actions.

- Well the whole thing is problematic, none of it is usually straight-forward or easy.

Do we accept the concept of an age of responsibility or not?

Some do and some don't.

Having known many children (of all ages) in my life I find the idea of insisting they are all always aware and fully conscious of the nature of their actions and the consequences arising from them totally unrealistic and not credible.
Others disagree. Thankfully we're free to disagree on this.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

Well the whole thing is problematic, none of it is usually straight-forward or easy.

Do we accept the concept of an age of responsibility or not?

Some do and some don't.

Having known many children (of all ages) in my life I find the idea of insisting they are all always aware and fully conscious of the nature of their actions and the consequences arising from them totally unrealistic and not credible.
Others disagree. Thankfully we're free to disagree on this.

Well when applied with some sound common sense I do agree, although I think it's an area that's been exploited far too readily.

Again though I'm concerned by the direction these discussions always seem to take, there seems to be an unspoken implication that...kids are poor, we've let them down, kids are bored, we've let them down, kids parents are awful, we've let them down therefore lets put up with whatever they choose inflict on us, shrug and learn to live with it, we deserve it. At the end of the day there are a lot of kids...and adults for that matter who do what they do because they can.

I'm all for social change, youth schemes etc but only in tandem with a system that still protects society from those who cross the boundaries, whether that be violence. anti social neighbours (you don't realise how horrible an experience it is till it happens to you) or disruptive intimidating behaviour. Otherwise eventually people will look to themselves for protection.

Originally posted by ubermunche
I'm concerned by the direction these discussions always seem to take

- Me too, from my perspective it invariably seems that any attempt to understand or consider any wider circumstances involved is instantly written off as 'excusing'.

Nothing could be further from the truth as far as I am concerned, understanding is all about trying to avoid a repeat occurring.
People (with the exception of the very young or mentally impaired) are still fully responsible for their own actions and their 'victims' do not 'deserve' the injustice they have encountered.

That's not to say that as a society we cannot do things better and in ways less likely to lead to anti-social behaviour(s) arising but it in no way excuses actual instances of criminal behaviour(s).

[edit on 16-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]