Try and argue this. I dare ya!

Lol semper.....I had to pick a title which attracted attention. I had the exact same post with another title but got 0 replies on that one. So I changed the title.

Got mine!!!!

Semper

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I don't know if I agree with you there - it gives a snapshot picture of an opinion. It may not alway s be accurate, but if bias is eliminated, it has some validity. I mean, why would politicians follow opinion polls so slavishly?

True, but still, these days I would not trust anything about the government blindly. Unless I personally know the person who conducted the survey, I wud not take it into consideration as 'proof' of anything.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
OK. 'Terrorist', in my opinion would be someone who blows himself up on a London tube train killing civilians. Or flies a plane into a skyscraper.

I'm not talking about the war in Iraq, or attacks on British or US soldiers that could be seen as occupying forces.

I'm also not talking about unease about U.S. foreign policy in the middle east. Or attacks on Lebanese civilians by the Israelis in the recent war. Or US treatment of the Iraqi population.

Why wudnt u consider those as terrorist acts??

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Would you say that people who kill civilians are terrorists, even they say they do it for Allah? It's really a yes or no answer. And if it's a 'no', then we part company.

You may be disgusted with US foreign policy (a lot of non-muslims are too), but imo, you fight monsters without turning into one yourself.

I wud not agree to any innocent person being killed. If someone kills in name of Allah then he is not a muslim. I wud want that person to be punished as severely as possible.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this, because it's more about nationalism than religion. Vietnam wasn't muslim, but they fought the same war.

The question I want answering is the one I posed above - do you feel that you can justify 9/11 and 7/7 on religious grounds? I don't.

First you agree thats its a nationalism issue and not a religious issue then how can you say that 9/11 and 7/7 was done on religious grounds. Infact, this question is pointless to me because I believe US government was responsible for 9/11 so they cud have an excuse to go to war for oil.

What religion allows its followers to commit terrorist acts??? I know Islam does not.

Anyone who kills is a murderer and nothing else. You cannot classify someone as muslim killer or non-muslim killer. Punish the murderer and stop harassing the innocent people.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I'm not American, but I do have another question about Ummah. I holidayed in the UAE a few times, and I was interested to see that people that were born there (from Lebanon for example) didn't get citizenship. It could be argued that it only goes so far. I also don't like the way that there is little free press and electoral accountability in the gulf, but as a Brit, I don't like making statements on middle eastern standards after Blair and Iraq!

I also don't think that Kuwait or the UAE are representative of the middle east (although this is off topic) - take away oil, and the economics would resemble Syria or Jordan, which ain't so hot.

But like I said - this is coming back to economics and nationalism, rather than religion.

Again, its all about nationalism and not religion. People are against US foreign policy and the US military in their countries. If they fight against it, then they are labelled terrorists.

Kuwait and UAE are developed countries and they have good education. Backward countries produce lot of extremists because they lack education and the leaders use religious propoganda to exploit the youths and use them for their own agenda. But even US government does that.

Have u ever wondered why americans are not taught geography so much in school? or why they dont know about history of other countries so much?

There was a program on TV in which they asked random americans off the street where the Eiffel Tower was. 1 out of 10 was able to give the right answer.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
OK. But like I said above - you're more likely to get an impoverished Egyptian, Afghan or Yemeni doing stuff than a Kuwaiti, right?

Osama is a billionaire. Terrorist does not have to be someone poor.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
My question wasn't really about US foreign policy, I have my own opinions about that.

But the whole thing boils down to that. Conflicts due to US foreign policy, not because of religion fanatics.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I think you're probably right. The assholes are the ones that get all the publicity. The people that keep their heads down and try to get a better life for their family get ignored. It's always the way.

You summed it up.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I don't know what you could do about it. Form a 'muslims for democracy' lobby group if you were so inclined? Stress a commitment to religious pluralism? It's about the only way you'd take publicity away from the lunatics that seem to get all the publicity, in the UK, at least, like Al Mujaroun, and so on.

Any groups that muslims form these days can easily be labelled as a terrorist group and can be subject to constant scrutiny by the Feds.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I think the only way around it is to positively engage with the media and present an 'Islam and apple pie' version of your religion. It sounds corny, but there you have it.

Its difficult for hard working average family men to engage in such activities. I am a full time student with part time job. Right now Im currently off from the semester so I have time to post on this site and try to get my voice across.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]

Originally posted by Waiting2awake

With all due respect. Wives get beat from every religon. You ever see a fight at an Irish houshold in cabbagetown? Man, the wife took it, the husband took it. Everyone took it. Then they went to church the next day. Beating your wife doesn't happen because of the book you prey too, or the invisible friend you have. It happens because the man is too much of a jerk, and too wrapped up into his own crap to realize that no one has a right to strike another - even if it is your wife.

Perhaps the OP was refering to honor killing which is prevalent among Muslims but not so much among the Irish.

As for the female circumsizing. I don't agree with it either, but I don't agree with the male version as well. It seems only hypocritical to speak ill of one side, while not decrying the other as well. Are Jews as bad as these people are to you? Is circumsizing a male, better/worse than circumsizing a female? If one is wrong then isn't the other as well?

Male circumcision is a religious practice, which has some proven health benefits, female circumcision is a practice of cutting a young girl in order to make sex painful, so the girl won't go out and have sex for pleasure. It's a control tactic used by men, under the auspices of tradition not religion.

Not in the mood to argue. It's their choice to do with what they will with their belief systems like anyone else on the planet. Goverments are just concered since their the most likely to have terror cells these days than other groups. But that's all I can guess.

Originally posted by jsobecky
This is false. I give you two names as proof: Mohammed Atta and Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Whr did these two get their education? Where were they born, raised. What was their childhood like? What jobs did they have? Who was their famnily?
Where is the proof that indeed it was these two who attacked on 9/11?
Prove to me other than the 'official story'.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The First Amendment does not guarantee that you will not be offended, or that someone will not disrespect you. It gives people the right to say whatever they want, with very few exceptions. Offensive and disrespectful statements are not excluded.

That is one of the strengths of the First Amendment.

So, when a muslim protestor is out with a sign that says 'Death to America', why is it not okay for him to do that. How is he siding with the terrorists then? He is expressing his opinion of killing you which is freedom of speech so why do people criticize him then?

Its not the strength of the first amendment. And btw, the first amendment is for your US citizens only. Does not apply to the world.

If a 14 yr old girl can be pulled out of class to be questioned by the secret service for having a website threatening the president then why cant the muslims question the person insulting the prophet respected by million of people.

Stop justifying someones BS with freedom of speech.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
The reason most muslims are looked upon with suspicous eyes, is because its up to them to solve this problem.

Why? Im not the one muredering anyone. Im a muslim but not a terrorist. Why should i be the one under investigation.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
When ever we attempt to right some wrongs in regards to muslims, they backlash against us.

Who decides wats right or wrong?

Insulting prophet: right according to you (you as in, not YOU but anyone who agrees with it), wrong according to millions of poeple.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
If being muslims, is about peace... then the peaceful muslims should be the ones to OUT the finatical muslims.

How? I already explained the problem in my original post. How do you know the peaceful ones are not doign anything? Do you think everyone has time for this after a busy day at work and little time with family?

People are doing watever they can, ofcourse u will never know because media will not show it.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
but the most muslims we murder, detain and torture.. just mean more peaceful muslims join the side of the enemy.

Because muslims do not believe in murder, detaining and torture. And if you do it then obviously people are gonna join in the fight against you. From what I see, thats exactly what US is doing after occupying the countries. Freedom fighters = terrorists according to western media and news.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I went out of my way yesterday on an hour long bus trip to sit next to a young muslim girl on the bus.
Not after a phone number, or anything I simply sat next to her with a smile and said hello because she looked like a decent, peace loving individual, someone whom would give me a better understanding of the faith.

IF your to make a difference, search for the good in the faith rather than criticise it.

Glad to see you made the effort. I had a thread titled 'How many muslims do you know?'. The aim of that thread was exactly that. To get to know the muslims arnd u. If everyone made that effort then u cud judge yourself if you are in any danger or not. Anyone who did think that the next door muslim might be involved in terrorist attacks can report him to authorities.

So asl ong as u all know that muslims arnd u are of no danger than u have nothing to worry abt. The government can handle the security of your borders. Too bad the gov. is busy waging wars and occupying countries for oil and other agendas.

Originally posted by stanstheman
Perhaps the OP was refering to honor killing which is prevalent among Muslims but not so much among the Irish.

Its not prevalent among muslims. Thats wrong way to put it. Its prevalent among backward countries with lack of education.

How did we go from wife beating to honour killing anyway? Is anyone even readin the posts before posting???

Originally posted by stanstheman
Male circumcision is a religious practice, which has some proven health benefits, female circumcision is a practice of cutting a young girl in order to make sex painful, so the girl won't go out and have sex for pleasure. It's a control tactic used by men, under the auspices of tradition not religion.

No where in Quran have I ever seen that it is permissible to do that to a girl. Not in my entire life have I ever heard any religious leader or extreme follower tell me that its ok to do that. You are right, its a tradition thing and not religious.

I wonder who actually even practices that. Thats just retarded.

cant the muslims question the person insulting the prophet respected by million of people.

Devils advocate here..

We are not saying not to question him...

It's when you kill him, burn his house, his Embassy and stone his businesses that we have a problem..

Semper

chill out man, im on your side ffs.

There are finatical muslims and there are peaceful ones..
Deal with it.

They criticise jesus and christanity..we dont do anything.,
We criticse mohammed.. we get raped.
Deal with it.

We cant do anything to intervene... we've trampled on our respect and trust so badly that its justified the muslims not trusting us..
Its up to the good muslims to bind together and remove the cancer growing within there ranks.

Its not your fault, true..
you didnt deserve this task true..

but the world needs your help in removing this cancer.. and your going to refuse it simply because its not your fault?

Simple, don't start a fight you don't have to fight. That's why they get upset, and those too upset may decide to hurt people. So don't clump them together. I've met some of them at my job, and thier just like any other families in the US. Trying to get by, take care of their children, clean the house, cook meals. Their just normal people too, some of them just take things too personaly with what may be going on over there.

Originally posted by semperfortis

cant the muslims question the person insulting the prophet respected by million of people.

Devils advocate here..

We are not saying not to question him...

It's when you kill him, burn his house, his Embassy and stone his businesses that we have a problem..

Semper

Was that reporter killed? Was his house burned down? Was his embassy stoned?

There is a difference between threatening someone and actually doing it.

You people will not understand that when it comes to prophet mohammad, how much the muslims respect him. So why insult a figure that is respected by million of people? Why provoke the angry ones of the crowd?

I already gave the analogy. Dont poke the sleeping dog and then complain later if he bites you.

Originally posted by usaforever
Simple, don't start a fight you don't have to fight. That's why they get upset, and those too upset may decide to hurt people. So don't clump them together. I've met some of them at my job, and thier just like any other families in the US. Trying to get by, take care of their children, clean the house, cook meals. Their just normal people too, some of them just take things too personaly with what may be going on over there.

Jee's mate..
If I had a foreign army over in my home country.. illegially..
murdering, raping, maiming... and at the same time telling them world its THEIR fault.... id be pretty upset... and taking it personally.
Especially when another country, doing far worse... isnt even considered for the same line of action.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Its not your fault, true..
you didnt deserve this task true..

but the world needs your help in removing this cancer.. and your going to refuse it simply because its not your fault?

Not gonna refuse. I already gave an answer in my original post.

Originally posted by half_minded

Originally posted by semperfortis

cant the muslims question the person insulting the prophet respected by million of people.

Devils advocate here..

We are not saying not to question him...

It's when you kill him, burn his house, his Embassy and stone his businesses that we have a problem..

Semper

Was that reporter killed? Was his house burned down? Was his embassy stoned?

There is a difference between threatening someone and actually doing it.

You people will not understand that when it comes to prophet mohammad, how much the muslims respect him. So why insult a figure that is respected by million of people? Why provoke the angry ones of the crowd?

I already gave the analogy. Dont poke the sleeping dog and then complain later if he bites you.

Be fare here hey..
Criticism of christianity and jesus is common in the finatical muslim sense.
They do it MORE than we criticise mohhamed.

Yet... they dont consider what there doing as blasphemous?
Yet what we are doing is?

How about Jews.. and the amount of @#$% they give there religion.

why is it wrong for us to criticise the muslim faith..
yet they can do it openly?

This is exactly what ATS is about, people coming together and discussing a HUGELY volatile subject in a CIVILIZED MANNER.

to everyone involved (except for the guy who got the warning, name calling is NOT the ATS way chum )...

Please continue, the debate is fascinating and VERY eye openeing!

Springer...

[edit on 10-15-2006 by Springer]

I dont have a problem with Muslims personally, but they tend to be hot headed....


We had a t shirt released in England which had "JESUS IS A CU*T" emblazoned over the front of it, well none of us frettend to behead anyone or even chop off their hands we mostly just tutted loudly, so what gives Muslims the right to threaten people in a non muslim country with death for something they find offensive, if you dont like british culture then live somewhere else

Why is the muslim religion able to bulid a really large mosque in the center of Roman Catholic religon. Rome.

Yet a Cathedral would not be allowed to be built in Mecca?

I would like to get a good answer on that one. Please answer. please please answer.......

Talk about acceptance of people and religons and yet let me worship Christianity in Mecca. Rome is open.



And why can't a person wear a crucifix or bring a bible into some muslim countries and yet there are prayer rooms in schools around me for muslims.

Who is accomadating other view points?

There are many good people in the world in all religons, but some accept other view points more than others.


So to say the muslim religion is open to every view point is bogus in my opinion.


The muslim religion is not the a religion of peace. Christianity isn't either.


I think there are many loser pretenders in the Christian religion that preach intolerance. To deny there isn't a problem in the muslim religion also, is seeing the world thru false eye glasses.

People compalin about muslim bashing.

I like to complain about people that are jerks, and some of them are muslim. Big freaking deal.



The Danish cartoon contreversy is a golden example.

People protested and issued fatwah and people even died......Freaking dies beacuse of a cartoon. This was from one or very few papers.

Iran retaliated and wanted to see in Western media would not complain about a Holocaust cartoon contest. Iran doesn't even have a free press.

So Iran sponsored this cartoon contest.

The verdict was no crusades or holy wars against muslims for defaming and saying the holacaust was fake. and the deaths were zero.


Go ahead and blame the US for every freaking problem. Sure the USA is one of the problems. But look in the mirror, look at your country. Most of your problems are in your country from your country. Stop being a victim and try to fix it.

Moderation
Tolerance
Acceptance

Is this not what we are all talking about?

HM, You are right in your comments about Moderate Muslims.
Also the posters that have argued the Moderate Christian Side..

The problem occurs when there is no Moderation, when intolerance turns to violence.

When lack of acceptance begets isolation.

There are intolerant and potentially violent Christians. Look at that Church that is currently protesting funerals...

There are intolerant Muslims, look at the Danish Riots.

The subjective consequence of allocating one entire religion all to one group or the other, moderate or extreme, results in the alienation of the entire culture. That my friends is not healthy.

One of the most difficult tasks a person can perform, is to look at our own culture and see fault. Yet if there is ever to be any peace on this little rock we call home, that is exactly what all of us must do.
We must all begin to DENY the IGNORANCE that is violence in the name of religion. Realistically it is self defeating anyway. Without the ability to separate violence from religion in our own belief systems (personal) we only propagate in ourselves that which we espouse as evil in others.

Semper

Was that reporter killed? Was his house burned down? Was his embassy stoned?

There is a difference between threatening someone and actually doing it.

Agreed,

However..

Muslims kill Nun, burn churches, threaten to kill Pope to prove they are not violent
Not to state the obvious, but Islam really doesn't need a whole lot of help to make themselves look like the Religion of Death; they seem to be able to handle all the heavy lifting by themselves quite nicely without any help from Catholics.
uccatholic.blogspot.com...

A suicide bomber killed 35 people yesterday at a Baghdad restaurant favoured by police and a car bomb killed seven at an army recruiting centre in Tikrit.

There were no Americans in the area, she said. "I do not understand why most of the time it is the Iraqis who are killed."

The blast was the deadliest since a car bomb ripped through a market in a poor Shiite Muslim neighbourhood on the eastern outskirts of Baghdad, killing at least 30 people and wounding 38 on Sept. 19.
www.iranian.ws...

Nigerian Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches on Saturday, killing at least 15 people in the deadliest confrontation yet in the whirlwind of Muslim anger over the drawings.
michellemalkin.com...

As most know, these stories are all over and there are literally thousands of examples of this. Dozens more occurring every day.

Intolerance


Semper

Originally posted by half_minded

You people will not understand that when it comes to prophet mohammad, how much the muslims respect him. So why insult a figure that is respected by million of people? Why provoke the angry ones of the crowd?

You're right, I don't understand. And I don't care. Regardless of who you worship, you should be able to exorcise some self-control.

Are you saying that Muslims cannot control themselves when their prophet is insulted?

I already gave the analogy. Dont poke the sleeping dog and then complain later if he bites you.

Cute analogy...were any of the people the Muslims killed in "protest" over the Pope's comment "poking the dog"?

Or again, is it just asking too much for Muslims to have self-control? Understanding goes both ways. Quit making excuses.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by Astygia]

i couldent find the words to say anything, your guenius, astygia i give you the way above. simple, to the point and it exsplains the whole situation in a simple paragraph. wow.