Can anyone help Me?

I hate it when people use the art of war by sun tzu in any example of anything. The book was a logical approach to winning wars in that time period.. also, what strategies to apply and when.. to make the right response to the enemy etc. People completely overemphasize the book's importance, as if it is some ancient esoteric gnostic scroll found in Egypt or something. And its not just that book..

..whats that other stupid book, the art of the samurai? by musashi or something? whatever its called.. that book also gets taken way out of context, but I can somewhat see how a person could apply the books' fighting ideals into peaceful approaches to lifes problems but.. the art of war? naw. The art of war says things like "fight on a hill that is higher than your opponent", "get your opponents all close together and surround them so they cant fight effectively", "cut off your enemies food supply and let him starve when your sieging his city", "use cavalry for the appropriate purposes", etc.. nothing that can truly be applied to everyday living in the manner in which people trumpet the book out to be.

Its no Apocalypse of John, its no Gospel of Judas, man that thing isn't even a damn Da Vinci's Code, thats some bull#.

And you got people mad at you when talking about "doing magic" and implying that because your great grandfather or whoever was a mason and thus taught you how to be a mason at the age of a toddler which was so influential that it has completely changed your life to the utmost. It guides you directly into the brotherhood of the Masons' hands, as the 'Free Mason' you are. See im not even the type to disrespect people and I find it almost inviting in a sense with these posts, and i read the whole thing.

I have an ancestor who was a Brigadier General in the Confederacy. He was an officer in the Missouri State Guard, an unofficial organization during the Civil War and considered the furthest american territory from washington dc at the time. Why do I say this? because I am more of a liberal than anything and utterly dislike far-right activists, klansmen, racist skinheads, and any other brand of that crap. No connection there, beyond the coincidence that I have always had a niche for commanding forces on a simulated battlefield, whether it was on a video game, the computer, a tabletop with miniatures, etc. And I've always been interested in such things and so on, but thats where the similarities end. But I wasnt around as a toddler when he was still alive because that was the 1800s.. hmm. what to do

I think you seem eager to learn about some things that arent put right in front of you but rather things that attempt to conceal themselves from the random naked eye. From what I truly understand about Masons after years of interest and reading material related to Masons is that they are a giant, splintered, gentleman's club made up of the 'in crowd' of middle and upper class suburban society. I call it splintered because there are so many individual 'franchises' of the Freemason club that some practices undoubtably vary to some degree from group to group. And while there are customs, there are customs in all things, or as some say rituals. Masons give each other exclusive deals on big time business.. and when it comes to politics they help each other with campaign donations and such. The Masons that are lawyers whom identify you as a fellow Mason would be inclined to put a 'special commitment' into your case. If the Judge presiding over a case is a Mason, and your attorney is also a Mason, the Judge may do what he can within the confindes of the law to help ensure your victory. It's guys helping each other get around the bulk of the system, that is designed to keep people below a certain mental aptitude back, but they didn't design the system. They might have had a part in the creation of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, but not all of the authors were Masons.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by runetang]

The point is, find your local Mason splinter or give up trying to find concrete information on it via the internet, your choice.

If i could give you my 3 votes for way above for the best rant ever, i totally would. That said it all perfectly...i hope this closes down this thread.


Thank you!

Originally posted by runetang
The point is, find your local Mason splinter or give up trying to find concrete information on it via the internet, your choice.

runetang, I'd like to say thanks for your comment. There have been a lot of good posts on here so far and a lot of good information.

There is no easy way to put this. The subject is an inheritance that nobody likes and everybody must bear with. So, mind that everyone is today just the consequence of their past and environment.
You just have to figure that between a society and its members there is a relation in which both ones gives shape to the other. When certain society has heavy rules about something, those rules stands probably overcoming the will of the people that make it up.
Whether inside or not a secret society, people can be right, wrong, or most usually somewhere between. We all play certain wrestle with our situations. So, be kind to the ones that love you, and show respect to all people. They, so as you, even have the right to make wrong choices. And sometimes there is/was no choice at all.

If you never knew about this up to your age, even admitting that some kind of culture is surrounding you, it's probably because both you and your family had been respecting each other and you have managed to stay out of this sort of things.

If this subject has come up to you, there is a possibility that there are some (or many) members around you. They all have made oaths in front of other members, swearing not to talk about this with people that don't share these oaths. You are one of these people they can't talk to.

FM is about been honest (with others and with yourself), confident of no backbites and treacheries. It is also about members helping and doing favors to other members, even when they don't really know each other in a visible way. This secret net of contacts builds up a panoptic structure across the whole society which is symbolized by the all seeing eye. (Search about Bentham's panopticon and you will find that there is a need for each panoptic guardian to go as unnoticed as possible).

So, you have (let say) your father, that wants to be absolutely straight with you, but he can't unless you are one of them. He won't certainly come up to you in a direct way. He has to be discreet, and is probably not willing to risk your relationship. He ask someone from the brotherhood to let the issue past by you, and see if you take the bait.
If you don't show interest, the father-son relationship keeps untouched because there is no evident connection with the other person. But if you get into FM, you will know the truth once they think you are ready to handle it, and once they are able to handle you in keeping your mouth close.

You can pretty much figure how it really works just by thinking about what the oaths says and what consequences it will have.
The oaths are made in front of other members, (men, no gods) and eventually some of them will be willing to force you obey them, in order to avoid risking something they own. (Read "What would a Secret Society show you to keep your mouth closed?")
You are getting into something that you don't really know, and promising to be honest and helpful to other members whom you don't know. (Do I have to stress that they DO really know you, and even more than what you can imagine?) Meanwhile you would be swearing that in any case that two or more people are involved, you will always prefer any member of the brotherhood against someone else. You are literally giving up any ability to choose to whom you want to be honest or helpful with.
What if you are faced with the dilemma of choosing between your best friend and a member? Well, the oath stands clear. You won’t even have a choice here. And neither will you when the old and first issue of this script arises: You will someday be willing to be absolutely straight and honest with your son, but they won't let you unless he becomes one of them.

I'd like to thank Track Me and a few other people who have made some awesome answers and given Me a lot of good information.

Originally posted by umwolves123
If i could give you my 3 votes for way above for the best rant ever, i totally would. That said it all perfectly...i hope this closes down this thread.


Thank you!

You know, people like this really piss Me off. You can't just leave someone well enough alone you have to be spiteful and hateful.

Hey Spartan, if you want to find more about freemasonry, you could always just petition your local lodge, as some have already mentioned. They have this slogan goes something like "ASK12B1".

There are particular things that the masons on ATS will not share with you, such as modes of recognition and what goes on during a degree ritual. If you really want to delve into Freemasonry, you'll have to become one.

You obviously have more time than you think, if you can post here on ATS. You don't want to read websites that are "hoaxes", then go to a local lodge in your area, and ask around during an open/information night or whatever they are called.

SK John, MI

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Hey Spartan, if you want to find more about freemasonry, you could always just petition your local lodge, as some have already mentioned. They have this slogan goes something like "ASK12B1".

There are particular things that the masons on ATS will not share with you, such as modes of recognition and what goes on during a degree ritual. If you really want to delve into Freemasonry, you'll have to become one.

You obviously have more time than you think, if you can post here on ATS. You don't want to read websites that are "hoaxes", then go to a local lodge in your area, and ask around during an open/information night or whatever they are called.

SK John, MI

It's not so much that I have an amount of time online to look around or not. Some people have sent Me links to read and most of them are filled with some facts, a few have been "hoax" sites that any amateur can spot within a second.

My original post was asking what someone in the Mason's might term as "Magic" because I was talking to someone and telling them about the "Power of Observation", the "Power of Persuasion", the "Power of Double Talk : Seeing, Hearing, Speaking, and Interpreting" and that person told Me that I've been using "Masonic Magic" for most of My life. These were of course only a few of those things I mentioned to that person. My great-grandfather was a mid-level Mason...My step-father taught Me a lot about how to see through the B.S. that is done through the use of the media, radio, people talking to you, etc. I know when someone's lieing...I can tell when a politician is lieing...his/her lips are moving...lol.

I can literally read a newspaper and know exactly which bits are true, which bits are B.S. Propaganda, or when I heard President Bush's speech after 9/11 the hairs stood on the back of My neck, because I heard the meaning behind everything that was said and the intent that was being directed at the mass public.

[edit on 23-12-2006 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Well all previous things set aside, perhaps you are simply an intelligent person if you can read between the lines of media stories. I was pretty good at it and then went to University for 4 years to hone my ability in the subject (my Bachelors is in International Affairs, basically means, speaking and seeing throug the art of BS.) That in no way constitutes "magic," simply a sharp wit and an above average intelligence.

I can't think of any Mason describing any of our studies or attributes as "magic." This might sound elitist but I feel that Masonry attracts people of above average intelligence....in most cases.

Seriously though, like others have stated, join a lodge! The worst thing that can happen if you do not like it is you stop paying dues and you stop going to Lodge. Worst case scenario, no hanging, no tongue removed...

To give you a personal for instance in so far as you can leave a Lodge at any time you see fit.

My senior year of College I simply could not keep up with my school work and studying for my Blue Lodge degrees. Which my father (a DeMolay before a Mason) warned me that you can not keep up with both school and Masonic work. I told my WM (Worshipful Master) that I simply could not continue being a Mason, and he said I understand that, your responsibilites outside of Masonry unequivocally come first. I never heard another word from them (other than the Brothers I would see on the weekends obviously) and after I graduated I was immediately welcomed back with open arms.

No ritual whipping, nothing.

Hey spartanking, what do you mean your great-grandfather was a mid level mason?

Originally posted by Criniit
Hey spartanking, what do you mean your great-grandfather was a mid level mason?

Exactly what I said, My great-grandfather was a mid-level Mason. High ranking muckity-muck, one of the higher ones and not an initiate.

I never said I was calling it "Masonic Magic" but someone else was and I'm curious if anyone else calls it that. It's more than "being intelligent" and seeing through the B.S. in media though.

As for joining a lodge, I'm busy as Hell at the moment with working 2 jobs, online school, volunteer as a Boy Scout leader, writing a book, and runing a website forum. The forum is in My signature if you want to look.

[edit on 24-12-2006 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

No I mean, what do you consider a "mid-level mason"...? It doesn't take that long to get to Master Mason, and that the highest degree there is...

The longest I have ever seen it take for an EA to get to MM is 4 months (im in America)

If your talking about him being a Scottish rite and only being like 25 degree or whatever, then your off basis cause the 3rd degree is the highest degree.

Originally posted by Criniit
No I mean, what do you consider a "mid-level mason"...? It doesn't take that long to get to Master Mason, and that the highest degree there is...

The longest I have ever seen it take for an EA to get to MM is 4 months (im in America)

If your talking about him being a Scottish rite and only being like 25 degree or whatever, then your off basis cause the 3rd degree is the highest degree.

I don't know all the levels of the Mason's, but I know he was higher than the 25th degree. What are the levels?

Well the 3rd degree is the highest level in terms of power in the lodge. But as far as numerology goes, if he was Scottish rite, then it goes from 4th-33rd degrees, most only have 32nd degree as the 33rd is just an honorary title given to masons who have "gone beyond the call of duty" as some might say.

In the York Rite there are less degree, but the highest one would be the Knight Templar.

In my contact with Freemasons, I have never seen anything of this "Masonic Magic" that you speak of.

Most likely, there is no such thing. If you ever looked up the rituals online, which is readily availalble, there is no talk of any such magic.

Something more on the lines of "magic", "alchemy" and the like probably be the ROSICRUCIANS. They practice some sort of art, and things more on the lines of what your talking about. They are more of a mystical organization.

SK John, MI

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
In my contact with Freemasons, I have never seen anything of this "Masonic Magic" that you speak of.

Most likely, there is no such thing. If you ever looked up the rituals online, which is readily availalble, there is no talk of any such magic.

Something more on the lines of "magic", "alchemy" and the like probably be the ROSICRUCIANS. They practice some sort of art, and things more on the lines of what your talking about. They are more of a mystical organization.

There have been several well-known Masons who took an interest in magic, but I don't know if magic could be called a Masonic thing, per se.

Albert Pike's interest in Magic is well-known. He believed that Freemasonry was in a sense a continuation of the Mystery School of the ancient Magi, and of course the word "Magic" is derived from the Magi.

Mackey likewise was interested in Magic, but he apparently didn't consider it of supreme importance. Both A.E. Waite and Paul Foster Case were practicing Magicians, although both had learned and studied Magic as members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn long before becoming Masons. Same thing with Aleister Crowley, whom some consider to be a Mason due to his having once been a member of an irregular Lodge.

Something similar could also be said of Manly Palmer Hall, who had long been a student and practitioner of occultism before becoming a Mason (although Hall, unlike the abovementioned, had never been affiliated with the Golden Dawn).

Well I am not a Free and Accepted Mason so I do not have much authority over Freemasonry, but I am petitioning and do know what I'd like to think as a decent amount about the basics of the fraternity.

To the maker of this thread. To my knowledge there were some rather odd and weird Freemasons(still are I'm sure). Some that have dabbled in magic, wicca, satanism, and everything else. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that is what Freemasonry is all about. Just because you have one minister that picks up male prostitutes for fun, does not mean that all Christians are wierd like that too.

In my opinion, Freemasonry can seem kind of wierd at times due to their symbolism and for all the history wrapped up in it. But please don't think that means that Freemasons are crazy for this reason, especially not your Grand father.