President Wants to Torture

President Bush wants to torture muslims while the Pope says
Islam is a violent religion. We have illegal invasions going on
and yet Pope still wants us to think christianity is a peaceful religion.

Pope has angered muslims by eluding that islam is a violent religion.
he was quoting a christian emperor.

He said that true religion and violence dont go together.

that would mean that crusades renders the catholic church as a false religion.

Pope also forgot to mention his own history when popes before him used to order brutal torture during the spanish inquisition.

torure has returned in 21st century.

this time it is American inquisition.

And the US President is the grand inquisitor. he is demanding that congress pass tough laws allowing torture of muslims.

Today we have a President for Torture.

Washington Post

Cheney

www.cnn.com...

Congress


Reuters

news.independent.co.uk...





[edit on 15-9-2006 by mr conspiracy]

What a load of unmitigated, rarefied BULLSH*T. Keeping very, very, very bad people awake and cold for few days is the furtherest thing from torture.

AND they are NON-UNIFORMED combatants, therefor they have given up any protection the GC offers.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Number23]

Originally posted by Number23
What a load of unmitigated, rarefied BULLSH*T. Keeping very, very, very bad people awake and cold for few days is the furtherest thing from torture.

AND they are NON-UNIFORMED combatants, therefor they have given up and protection the GC offers.

Who said they were combatants? Prove that to me? Prove to me that the people who have been held for five years now in Gitmo, without charges or trial, are all "combatants". Also, once you realize you can't prove that (because it's not true), could you define what a "non-uniformed non-combatant" is? I believe you'll find the proper term should be

civilian.

So am I to interpret your post as stating that as long as we're not torturing soldiers, we can scoop civilians up and treat them however we please? We can hold them indefinitely without charges or trial, keep them awake for days, expose them to the elements, make their lives miserable and conduct endless interrogations using methods that aren't being revealed, and we're okie-dokie?

How about we also reduce their rations to water and rice?

How about we also tattoo their forearms?

Make them wear crescent moons?

To me it seems it would just be more humane and less expensive to the U.S. taxpayer if we just humanely gas them and then cremate them. I've just recently had to have some one cremated, and you can get it done for as low as $595. I'm sure the gassing could be brought to a low low cost as well, if we could just devise some type of system where we gas large numbers of them at the same time.

Also, we could cover some of the costs of the operation by just using all their personal property we've confiscated - like the funds we've frozen on the outside chance they knew somebody that knew somebody that knew somebody that was funding terrorism.

I'm all over this idea, personally. Because I think it's a good and final solution to not violating these subhumans' rights anymore.

Im suprised no alarm was raised when the Geneva convention was stated as "vague" according to the US President

# (Article 13): "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."
# (Article 13): "...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."
# (Article 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

key part:

"No physical or mental tortue"

How can that or the convention be vague

Originally posted by Number23
Keeping very, very, very bad people awake and cold for few days is the furtherest thing from torture.

Classic example of doublethink in action. Are you prepared to swap your liberty for freedom?

Individuals just carrying out their orders and concentrating on the 'mission' with the hierarchical accountability of the military to protect their moral and legal position.

This is how evil is done.

Bush's attempt to roll-back US observance of the Geneva Convention is a new low for the country. Undefendable. Frightening. Get him out.

Originally posted by shanti23

Originally posted by Number23
Keeping very, very, very bad people awake and cold for few days is the furtherest thing from torture.

Classic example of doublethink in action. Are you prepared to swap your liberty for freedom?

Individuals just carrying out their orders and concentrating on the 'mission' with the hierarchical accountability of the military to protect their moral and legal position.

This is how evil is done.

What a steaming load of sanctimonious BS.

A lot of the guys America has captured have given up information that has PREVENTED attacks on America and Americans.

How many Americans are you willing to sacrifice to indulge your moral vanity?

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Number23]

Originally posted by mr conspiracy
President Bush wants to torture muslims

He wants to redefine torture, and use it on anyone he deems a terrorist. This doesn't just apply to Muslims.

while the Pope says Islam is a violent religion. We have illegal invasions going on and yet Pope still wants us to think christianity is a peaceful religion.

The Pope was quoting a statement from a 600-year old manuscript, and the reason for this quote was that it had to do with understanding other cultures and religions; this whole thing was taken way out of context.

And please, tell me how Christian is not a peaceful religion? Thou shalt not kill? Turn the other cheek? Ever read the bible?

Pope has angered muslims by eluding that islam is a violent religion.
he was quoting a christian emperor.

Guess what? Islam is a violent religion. Just like Bush wants to redefine terrorism, Muslims redefine violence to exclude the horrible things they do.

It doesn't take much to anger Muslims. Muslims rioted over a cartoon depicting Allah in an insulting light. Happens to Christians all the time, get over it Islam.

He said that true religion and violence dont go together.
that would mean that crusades renders the catholic church as a false religion.

Or it could mean that....true religion and violence don't go together. Past mistakes do not render an entire religion false; by this logic, the jihad renders all of Islam a false religion.

Pope also forgot to mention his own history when popes before him used to order brutal torture during the spanish inquisition.

Maybe because he was quoting an esoteric manuscript which has nothing to do with the Spanish Inquisition. And maybe because people cannot take the blame for the mistakes of their ancestors.

torure has returned in 21st century.
this time it is American inquisition.

Torture never left, and the "American Inquisition"? You make it like the US is out to persecute all Muslims...bull. Bush is after his own agenda, and given the amount of politically correct, anti-profiling crap floating around this country, Muslims aren't even near the top of his priority list.

And the US President is the grand inquisitor. he is demanding that congress pass tough laws allowing torture of muslims.

Again, torture of all "terrorists". I don't like the idea of torture, but this doesn't only affect Muslims; it applies to anyone considered a terrorist, which is basically anyone in America, and anyone in the world. Wake up, get a grip. Not to hijack your thread, but this is the groundwork for one NWO or another, pure and simple, which screws everyone. You need to stop worrying about the poor radical Muslims in specific, and look at the whole friggin world.

Originally posted by Astygia
Guess what? Islam is a violent religion. Just like Bush wants to redefine terrorism, Muslims redefine violence to exclude the horrible things they do.

Just a question, have you read the Koran?

Originally posted by Number23
. . .steaming load of sanctimonious BS. . .
. . .moral vanity.[edit on 16-9-2006 by Number23]

A personal attack. I would never of expect that from someone who would advocate torture as a justifiable means to an end.

What would become of our shared morality if torture was to become a part the fight to protect the democratic free world?

Yeah, it may sound conceited, but I really disagree with torture and I am shocked to see it being discussed as a viable method of information retrieval in the civilised world.
We can only hope that reason will see the light of day and that the people who have the power to make these decisions, will make the right one - for all our sakes.

What many don’t even realized is . . . that the definition of Torture will be in the discretion of the US as per case just like the absolute powers of the president to spy on Americans with nobody to keep tags of the watchers to protect the American people's rights .

Funny how willing are so many to give away rights to a government that looks to me that if he can take the Geneva convention and interpreted its way I wonder what it will do with the constitution.

Wake up American remember the War on Terror is full of hidden agendas and it has nothing to do with keeping you and me safe.

Denied Ignorance get informed and stay away from the government geared propaganda.

Listen to the leaders of the party in power that are against what the president wants to do.

They know exactly what this man in power wants to do but they can not expose him for what it is, because after all he is one of their own gone wrong.

Listen carefuly to the warnings.

ArMaP, you bet.

Surah 4
Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

It's cool to beat your wife if she gets 'uppity'. Hello, domestic violence.

Surah 2
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. For disbelievers is a painful doom. For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. They will not emerge from the Fire. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. War is ordained by Allah. Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. Disbelievers worship false gods. They will burn forever in the Fire. Allah does not guide disbelievers. "Give us victory over the disbelieving folk."

Kill non-Muslims without warning; Allah says it's okay.

I've been quoting the entire chapters just so show it's not being taken out of context, from here on I'll just show the parts that apply. If you need clarafication, I will post the entire chapter to show context.

Surah 4:8
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

Does that one even require narration?

Surah 5:7 - 5:8
Non-muslims are wrong doers. Christians will be burned in the Fire. Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom.

Or that?

Surah 9:1 - 9:5
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. Give tiding of a painful doom to Christians and Jews. If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom.

So if Muslims don't kill Christians and Jewish disbelievers, they will go to to hell.

There's more if you want it. But that's not the point; Muslim terrorists, or the persecution of Muslim terrorists, should be the least of our worries. These are the days when one man can decide who's a terrorist and who gets detianed indefinately, again the steps towards something far worse. You're missing the forest for the trees.





[edit on 16-9-2006 by Astygia]

There's something fishy about that. That language style doesn't match books of that era, it's way too clear and blunt. I'd like to have a source on the translation please. I think someone has used too much poetic license.

Originally posted by SteveR
There's something fishy about that. That language style doesn't match books of that era, it's way too clear and blunt. I'd like to have a source on the translation please. I think someone has used too much poetic license.

The Holy Quran, Noor Foundation International version, 3rd edition, translated by Abdul Mannan.

I own the book, it's not a website.

EDIT: If you wanna communicate more on this, I'm open to u2uing all day, let's not hijack this thread any more than I've done.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Astygia]