Islamic Conversion Forced on Fox Journalist's for Freedom!

Your version of the Quran reads quite different that the one that djmessiah posted for the same passage.

Are their different translations of the Quran like different translations of the bible??

If so, it would seem that the interpretation plays a major role in whether or not a person would be a Islamic extremist. and blow up the infidels

[edit on 29-8-2006 by the_sentinal]

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Your version of the Quran reads quite different that the one that djmessiah posted for the same passage.

Are their different translations of the Quran like different translations of the bible??

If so, it would seem that the interpretation plays a major role in whether or not a person would be a Islamic extremist.

exactly. however different translations of the bible in general simply translate (keeping the same concpets/ideas etc.)... not say something entirely different.... something very contradictory... i could be wrong though... im not versed in the different versions of the bible.


these two different reads are pretty different arent they?

It would seem that these differences would make the question of who is right even more muddled.

Both sides seem to have merit, the peaceful one moreso because, of coarse, it's peaceful.

even so though, this incident has some christian web sites calling Islam the "beast religion" citing that revalation's "beast religion" being the profession of Islam.

This "profess or you die" incident with the fox news crew has some seeing the future wipe out of christianity and other religions through these means a possibility, could it happen??

We know that in revelations that those who do not recieve the mark of the beast are killed, the part about these two guys having to renounce christianity is what is fueling the "beast religion" talk. does it sound like a possibility???

I for one am not sure.

the beast religion? thats interesting. ive never heard that slant... islam being called the beast religion and the mark of the beast reffereing to islam. thats new to me.

ive just been out of the loop. how recent did this theory come out?

Originally posted by krossfyter
the beast religion? thats interesting. ive never heard that slant... islam being called the beast religion and the mark of the beast reffereing to islam. thats new to me.

ive just been out of the loop. how recent did this theory come out?

Actually I just heard that myself, from a website I wont name here but rest assured this has got more than a few people wondering how the mark of the beast and world religion somehow intermix to create the endtime senerio that most believe is coming.

people are falling to the trap believing that Islam is evil
stop blaming Islam and start blaming the people who do this
Islam did not tell them to do this they choose to do this and used Islam as a excuse

Originally posted by CYRAX
people are falling to the trap believing that Islam is evil
stop blaming Islam and start blaming the people who do this
Islam did not tell them to do this they choose to do this and used Islam as a excuse

Thats a very good point.

Do people condemn all Germans as Nazi's because of what happened in WW2? No.

Are the Japanese all fanatical maniacs because of what happened in WW2? No.

Are all Catholics absolute barbarians because of what happened during the Inquisition? No.

Are all Christians barbarians because of the crusades? No.

So why are people hell bent on saying that ALL muslims are evil?

A part - a very small part - of the religion has been hijacked by lunatics. Its nothing to do with the mainstream religion at all. The majority of people invoved with this are interested in killing, and hide behind religion as an excuse, in the same way that the IRA did when it started out.

People need to get some perspective.

Your version of the Quran reads quite different that the one that djmessiah posted for the same passage.

Actually its not the translations that are so different its the different parts of the quran that we are quoting. While I have been quoting the parts pertaining to war and domination djmessiah has been quoting the parts about peace and tolerance. As I have stated earlier the quran puts an order of sin in which it is a sin to kill but a greater sin to be "persecuted" so go and kill.

The peace and tolerance refered to in the quran as I said is a Muslim peace. You are asked to convert and if you convert to Islam or if you pay the jizya tribute tax and live in submission then there will be peace. Otherwise it calls for death to pagans / unbelievers.

Peaceful Muslims that are willing to live at equal terms with other religions ignore those parts of the quran that call for domination over all other religions.

Do people condemn all Germans as Nazi's because of what happened in WW2? No.

No but I sure do condemn the nazi's for what happened in ww2

Are all Catholics absolute barbarians because of what happened during the Inquisition?

Catholics that took part in the inquisition were as close and you can get to ruthless barbarians.

So why are people hell bent on saying that ALL Muslims are evil

I dont think anyone is saying all Muslims are evil. I have made the point that the Quran is a book of war and domination against unbelievers.

There are many peaceful Muslims that do not strictly ad hear to the passages calling for them to wage war.

I think it's fairly evident that no one's mind is going to be changed here.

Those who want to remain entrenched in their bigotry against Islam, and continue parroting the words that Neocons, or their ignorant ministries tell them to believe. They will not listen to reason, they will not read your posts and say "Oh, gosh, I never thought of it that way, maybe Muslims are people too!" They will not accept any comparison between the Qu'ran and The Bible, no matter how well founded, they will not accept that every religion has its own set of nutcases, extremists, and that this time around the cameras just happens to be focused on Islam. They will not accept that all around the world, violence that dwarfs the situations in the Middle East is occurring, because they are flat out ignorant of the real news. All they know is what Neocons tell them, and they will parrot it to their death while screaming "My country, right or wrong" and decrying anyone who disagrees as a terrorist sympathizer.

That's just how it is with ignorant people. There's no talking to them, there's no reasoning with them, they're ignorant for a reason, and they will continue to be so until they either die or have a life-changing epiphany, and that will not start here, obviously.

Likewise, those of us who actually have an education, read world histories, read theological texts, and pay attention to news outside of the neocon focus on the Middle East, and have actually (gasp) associated with Muslims in ways other than throwing bricks through their windows, will not be convinced that they are the beast religion or that they are all terrorists, or that Islam is a religion of violence. All we're really doing is making each other mad and increasing the divide already created by the current administration.

I can't wait till I rule the world. I'll just stick all the ignorant people, bigots, and all the religious extremists (of all types) on Antarctica with no food or supplies, and tell them when they learn to get along they can rejoin the real humans.

Kind of bizarre... but your point seems to be something along the lines of...

Anyone who says anything against Islam... is just ignorant, bigotted, etc?

You generalizing against the generalizers?

No one is going to read what they don't want to see

I agree apparently you have not read that most all of the points are based right out of the Quran not on anything that "neocons" have said.

can't wait till I rule the world. I'll just stick all the ignorant people, bigots, and all the religious extremists (of all types) on Antarctica with no food or supplies, and tell them when they learn to get along they can rejoin the real humans.

Said like a true beacon of peace and educated understanding of the world!!!

Originally posted by golemina
Anyone who says anything against Islam... is just ignorant, bigotted, etc?

You generalizing against the generalizers?

...and...

Originally posted by Heckman

No one is going to read what they don't want to see

I agree apparently you have not read that most all of the points are based right out of the Quran not on anything that "neocons" have said.

In answer to you both...

Yes and No. It's funny how THIS post of mine got a response while the fair-minded, middle of the road, logical approach to reason-type post I did yesterday got only one response and was otherwise ignored. This has been the case in most of the threads dealing with Islam, terrorists, etc, over the last couple of weeks.

The moment I post one that swings radically to one side, I get a multiple responses. So I think I proved my point pretty well.

My point was that no one seems willing to even so much as discuss a nice middle ground. All I'm seeing are posts on the far left "Muslims never ever do anything bad ever and are being persecuted unfairly" and posts on the far right "all Muslims are terrorists, and Islam is a violent religion".

So, yeah. I'm generalizing the generalizers as pretty much being ignorant and refusing to see what they don't want to. And blatant refusals to even consider that Muslims aren't all bad and that Islam isn't all violence is, yes, ignorant. It smacks of rednecked bigotry our country has tried for generations to overcome. It's the same sort of hatemongering attitude that formed the KKK, Pat Robertson, and Al'Qaeda.

Now I can accept when someone presents a straightforward educated approach to disagreeing, but I cannot accept when someone demonizes an entire religion for the actions of the minority.

Unless you have immersed yourself in the culture and history, you have no right to judge. All you have to go on is your flawed understanding of someone else's interpretation of a book you've never even read cover to cover, much less ever attended a mosque, and probably have never had a single Muslim friend. In other words: An IGNORANT view. So yes, it is a well-deserved generalization. I'm not saying this neccessarily applies to either of you, unless you've chosen to demonize Islam because of the actions of the few.

Originally posted by Heckman

Originally posted by thelibra
I can't wait till I rule the world. I'll just stick all the ignorant people, bigots, and all the religious extremists (of all types) on Antarctica with no food or supplies, and tell them when they learn to get along they can rejoin the real humans.

Said like a true beacon of peace and educated understanding of the world!!!

Notice I never said I'd kill them, I never said they would not be allowed to rejoin society, I never said they didn't have the capacity to learn. However, if you take a bunch of people who hate each other, and force them together into an environment where you absolutely cannot live without working together, one of two things will happen: they will learn to work together and have a chance at survival, or they will die and the world will be better off without their ignorant hatred.

Plus, I mean, I'm talking about ruling the world here, it's not like I have to follow any sort of rules at that point, long as I keep the real humans content.

I don't feel like you need to qualify your answer, or back down from your proposal.

This attempt to ignite a global religious armageddon is a threat to the survival of the species as a whole. On both sides, extreme elements are trying to ignite a general war of cultures that will claim the lives of billions.

These people represent a threat to the survival of the human species.

IMHO they should be dispatched with all haste and no mercy whatsoever: fanatical Islamists, Christian dominionists, Kahane-style Jewish extremists - all of them. If I could press a button that would cause them all to simultaneously drop dead, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

Doing so might just save the species from delf-destruction.

Originally posted by xmotex
I don't feel like you need to qualify your answer, or back down from your proposal...

(snip)

...If I could press a button that would cause them all to simultaneously drop dead, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

Doing so might just save the species from delf-destruction.

Well, see, here's the problem... People can be downright ignorant and brilliant at the same time. Take my late gramps for instance. He hated black people. As far as he was concerned, they were the cause of all the world's ills. But he was also a physicist and engineer who discovered and developed a lot of really out-there stuff, working with the likes of Einstein, Oppenheimer, and Feynman. Without his scientific contributions, who knows how history would be different.

And yet, he was ignorant as hell about any race or religion or gender sensitivity other than white male christian protestant, and later, a Mason. He did not want any part of women's liberation, my grandmother wasn't even allowed to read the mail.

I'd like to say he wasn't a bad person, but he really kinda was compared to today's standards. Now as far as I know, he didn't go around burning crosses in people's yards, or participate in lynchings, or bomb non-christian religious buildings, but he was quite outspoken about his dislike of (insert racial/sexist/bigoted epithet here).

But he was a really really scary genius when it came to science. And so that's why I believe that everyone is worth attempting to save from their own ignorance. We're all ignorant about something, and usually the sheer magnitude of that ignorance will anger someone else. It is only when that ignorance is harmful to others that one must take the OSHA approach: make sure the danger area is addressed and corrected, or the source of the danger must be removed.

So I'm not so much backing down as clarifying. I'd prefer all ignorant people be given the chance to learn and mend their ways, but when it comes to dangerous bigotry-based ignorance, until they learn, I'd rather they be relocated to an isolated area with other bigots and be forced to learn how to work together in order to survive or die in the process. But you have to at least give them a chance to mend first.

I guess I should clarify too, IMHO people can be as bigoted as they want, I really don't care. It's when they take action that affects others on the basis of their predjudice that they become a danger to the rest of us.

im a very objective and open minded person. ive been believing that islam is just like christianity with rotten apples in the bunch... but the religion is generally peacful.

now heckmans insights and arguements got me thinking that maybe the koran is a book of war.

im trying to find out for real if true islam is what he says it is... or if it is a peaceful relgion. whats wrong with that?? im far from being a neocon by the way... so your generalizations dont fit me.




[edit on 29-8-2006 by krossfyter]

I encourage the reading of the Quran for yourself everyone who wishes to learn about the Quran. The best way is to read it for yourself and form your own opinion.

www.wam.umd.edu...
www.quran-islam.org...
www.submission.org...

Read several different translations if you wish. You will find that Muslim "extremist" follow Islam as described in the Quran in its purest form. In fact most extremist breeding grounds are where the young men memorize the entire Quran.

IMHO they should be dispatched with all haste and no mercy whatsoever: fanatical Islamists, Christian dominionists, Kahane-style Jewish extremists - all of them. If I could press a button that would cause them all to simultaneously drop dead, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

So lets see you wish to exterminate those Muslims, Christains, and Jews whom you feel are fanatical.
Are you a nazi ?? honestly ??

Notice I never said I'd kill them

LOL are you serious?


[edit on 29-8-2006 by Heckman]

Originally posted by DYepes
.............
Only Muslims are actually declared terrorists.
.............

Thats not even true.... Nomatter from what religion people might be, if they plan and carry out attacks to kill other people they are terrorists....

Timothy Mcveigh was a terrorist, and he wasn't Muslim if I remember correctly...

Originally posted by krossfyter
im trying to find out for real if true islam is what he says it is... or if it is a peaceful relgion. whats wrong with that?? im far from being a neocon by the way... so your generalizations dont fit me.

No, there is nothing wrong with wondering and asking. By all means, question, ask, and wonder. Form an educated opinion based on facts, and be open to discussion.

The ones I spoke of are those whom have already made up their minds without asking, without reading, and without the ability to change it.


Anyway, no, Islam is no more a religion of war than Christianity and Judaism. It is, however (just like Christianity and Judaism) an organization of people looking out for their own best interests.

Now, first and foremost, keep in mind when these three religions really started coming together. Mankind was primative in their ways in many respects:

Communication between cities only scant miles apart could take days or weeks and generally only involved the most important parts. The most important parts generally consisted matters involving disease, warfare, trade, and empirical decree. There was no postal system. If you wanted to send a letter or package outside of eyesight, you either had the money to pay a dedicated messenger to ride to your target (very expensive plus horses), or you just handed the package to the nearest person riding in the general direction you wanted it to go and hoped it eventually got to where it was going. There were no grand publishers, few editors, and though there were a handful of authors, the vast vast majority of people were illiterate.

In short, there were a LOT of people who didn't know anything except what they were told, verbally, by someone else, and that had to be taken on faith that the person knew what they were talking about. Most of the time, the authority to speak came from the fact the person was atop a mount, and/or holding a weapon (two things most people did not have). Most people lived and died during the reign of a ruler they'd never known the face of, except, perhaps, on a coin or statue, if they even saw a coin in their life (or a statue).

Government was, for the most part, a mere shadow of what it was today. They collected taxes, and in return, they sometimes protected your land from being overrun by bad guys. Perhaps they provided a few services here or there in the wealthier areas, usually in the form of a guard. It wasn't until the Roman Empire that many of the "typical" government services (like roads, running water, welfare, sanitation, etc) were even considered something that government should provide.

Laws were just starting to come into being, and for the most part, only applied to the people being ruled and not the rulers. If a court existed at all, it was usually without a jury of ones peers, and was quickly decided after a brief explanation by both sides. Whomever was wealthier generally won. You didn't have to face your acusee, and the burden of proof was on the accused (who then had to have someone else gather the evidence for them because they were too busy being arrested). Government didn't dabble in a whole lot of laws. Laws generally amounted to "piss of the guards and pay or die" or "might and/or riches makes right" or "the tax is whatever you've been told at swordpoint it is". what few laws there were only became enforced if a guard was inclined to do so (something they weren't likely to do against any kind of superior wealth, class, rank, relatives, friends, etc.) There wasn't any kind of review or Internal Affairs office at which you could drop an anonymous tip about a corrupt official. If you decided to try that, it was almost always a death sentence.

Public Sanitation was a joke. People tossed their waste in the street (or the dirt that passed for a street). In some places bathing was considered unhealthy, in other places people would drink right out of the very water they'd bathed in, or dumped their waste in. When people did take a bath, it was usually several sittings for each tub of water. Soap was extremely rare, and certainly not anti-bacterial.

There was no Food and Drug Administration or anything like it. Slaughtered animals for food were often left outside (not that inside was any better), where any sort of vermin could land and lay eggs on it before being prepared by some guy who had no concept of what "wash your hands before returning to work" meant. And people thought nothing of buying and eating this fare, except perhaps that it might cost a bit much. Liquor could be as dangerous as the meat. Unless you knew exactly where it came from, and had tried it before, you were literally rolling the dice when it came down to quaffing spirits and wine. You might be drinking fine grapes mashed by virgin women's feet, or you might be drinking fermented wood and go blind the next day.

Lastly, the caste... which one could never rise out of. If you were born a serf, you died a serf, Hollywood be damned. The only way to rise up was to marry up or to buy up, and even that was only available to the merchant classes and higher. In the rare civilization, slaves occasionally were granted the ability to buy their freedom, provided they worked enough outside contract jobs and saved their money and didn't get it stolen from them by their masters.

Now... imagine living in a hell like this. Most people nowadays would be dead in a week. The average life expectancy for someone BORN into that life was barely 40. You're a native of this timeframe, and you've had enough. Enough watching corrupt guards get away with crimes they're supposed to be enforcing. Enough paying taxes to a government that gives you no reward. Enough watching people die from eating bad pork or liquor. Enough watching people die out of sheer despair for the life they were born into and can never ever escape. Things HAVE to change, YOU have to change them? But what can one poor serf or slave do to change the way in which mankind governs himself?

Start a religion.

(continued in next post)

Originally posted by Heckman

Notice I never said I'd kill them

LOL are you serious?

Very. And please cite the quotee, I'd hate to be lumped in with someone who would kill out of hand.