Checking a bible fact

Originally posted by Essedarius
Are there documents out there where Jesus is quoted as saying "Don't worship me or call me God...I'm not." ?

I had always understood that Jesus said he was the Son of God... and in the context that "heaven is within us"... "made us in His image"... that we ALL were the Sons of God...


I also recall from bible class that Jesus said to his diciples before the last supper that when he was gone, they would misunderstand his teachings. [my words as I do not know the passage to look for] It was never explained what that meant.

[edit on 11-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Essedarius

Jesus claimed to be God.
So he either was completely insane, a manipulative liar, or he was God.
(I'm stealing this completely from C.S. Lewis...he calls it the "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" theory in his book Mere Christianity.)

So that particular mismanaged and re-translated book (by people who had an Agenda) said. And even if he did say it, does it make it true? Is David Ike also the Son of God?

It makes sense. You can't say "he was a well-meaning, great man" about anybody who claims to be a diety...one of you would have to be wrong.

He can't be a "well-meaning, great man" at the same time as claiming to be a diety? Now I'm confused...I'm sure there are MANY people who fit that bill.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Your missing one other option in the Liar, Lunatic, Lord spectrum.

What if he wasn't a liar, or lord, or a lunatic. What if HE himself never said he was god, and people worshipped him as such? What if such things were infact added in later, or interpreted wrong? What if the writers of the bible really believed he was god, and thus wrote it in, but infact Jesus may never have spoken those words.

My point precisly!
I'm glad somebody can grasp that. haha

[edit on 7/12/2006 by Arcane Demesne]

Arcane D - thank you for clearing up your Position on Paul/Saul. I guess what it comes down to is wether or not Jesus/Yeshua intended his teaching only for the "Children of Israel" OR wether he was staring something new & intended it for everyone who had the Will to follow (I am of the latter opinion).

Also Jesus/Yeshua was NOT a Pharisee - although he had all sorts of followers. The Pharisees were a WELL ESTABLISHED Sect & Jesus/Yeshua was definitely "Anti-Establishment"! How else could you explain all of those Criticisms of the Temple High Priests/Rabbis?

Jesus/Yeshua was a Nazarean (the word "Nazar" means Wise) - a Tribe of Jews known for being more Liberal & for their Long Hairstyles. The Nazareans were closely associated with the Essenes.

Also Arcane D - the "Acts" of the Apostles is not an actual Gospel. I don't think that Jesus/Yeshua was a failure - I think that many of his followers failed to proclaim his TRUE Message/Teachings & hence many "Psuedo" Christianities were created in the vacuum.

Essedarius - Jesus/Yeshua Never claimed to be "GOD". Jesus/Yeshua can't be held liable for what people wrote after he died. BTW - can you please show me EXACTLY were in Scripture that Jesus/Yeshua said that he WAS "GOD". Jesus/Yeshua was a "Son of Righteousness" & he told us that we could ALL become the "Sons of Righteousness" - if we followed the Path/Way that he laid out for us.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Ah, but there are those documents. Ask around, but they have been squelched by the political religious leaders in the vatican, and cut out from the bible.

Every single document I reference is contaminated.
Every single document you would reference is locked away.
That's no fun at all.
If you are going to manufacture groundless arguments, at least manufacture them in a way that will keep the conversation going.

Originally posted by Arcane DemesneHe can't be a "well-meaning, great man" at the same time as claiming to be a diety?

Nope. If he's a MAN, he can't be a DIETY. The two are mutually exclusive, wouldn't you say? And if any MAN claims to be a diety, then he's either nuts or a liar.

Originally posted by Seraphim SerpenteJesus/Yeshua Never claimed to be "GOD". Jesus/Yeshua can't be held liable for what people wrote after he died.

How is it that so many people know EXACTLY what Jesus said and didn't say? Please reference a source! I really want to know the truth! As far as I can tell, there are three sources of information from that time period: documents accepted into the Bible, secular Roman and Jewish historical documents, and documents that were not accepted into the Bible. ALL of these concur that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, even the ones that were deemed forgeries!

Show me one historical document (...and no more from Athiests.com please!) that supports your claims, or at least admit that you are operating on a lot more FAITH than I am in believing your epic trail of truth supression.

Originally posted by Essedarius
If Jesus is actually a legend like the sun-god Mithra, then where are all the churches to Mithra and Helios and all the other fictional characters?

Not to dismiss or take away from the excellent retort you where offering Enkidu, but I thought maybe you would be interested in a Topic I posted a while ago.

Ancient & Lost Civilizations » Kangelu may be Mithraist temple?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Things are seemingly pointing to this, and when further details become available, I make sure it's updated.


As for the Topic at hand, you guys are funny.

Only Paul's writings and John, the Revelators works are associated to the event itself. (recorded as they occured) The Gospels are recollections from the writers, after the event. Dating for these varies from some 15 to 80 some odd years after Christ's resurrection, and then amassed and placed together over further time

As for the Original question, the Bible, is as Original as possible.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are not as one of the dismissive wished to suggest and pass these off as un-important. The Isaiah Scroll, is verbatum, from the Oldest Text in Jewish Hands. EXACT word for word. This is after some 2500 Years.

So there has always been some effort taken to ensure the integrity of the scriptures.

With respects to translations, there are none, that are viable, outside of King James, 1611 Version of the Holy Bible.

All other pale in comparision.

I can say this with assurance knowing that I am able to pickup the 1611 Bible, and translate back the English Text to the Original Hebrew/Chaldean or Greek words from the Scriptures.

This can be done with the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance alone.

No other Bible, in English can be researched back as throughly as the 1611.

And of course, there are always errors, in this translation as well, but without the Strong's Concordance, you would not know this.

Now the question of Christ, as a person, and an influence, are two different things. There should be little doubt of Christ, as an influence, and the benefits of this message brought forth thru scripture.

As for Christ as a person, well, those who doubt this, obviously have not the faith to accept this.

I can find a wealth of supportive material to offer that indicates Christ was a real but only those who would have that Faith of a Mustard Seed, could move that Mountian of Doubt.

But that is not what I am in this forum for. I'll plant seeds. It's upto the those who wish to nuture that seed, to make it grow, and ultimately decide to accept Christ for themselves. Once thats done, you'll realize he is alive today as well. But it's not my job or intent to twist anyones view oneway or the other.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
I see a lot of you guys referencing to Paul (Saul of Tarsus). Given that who was neither a Jew, nor knew anything about the Jewish religion, he's not someone I'd trust for anything. Especially the beginnings of the interwoven fabrics of a religion.

Dear Arcane

Your claim of Saul, knowing nothing, is frankly nutty, my friend

Paul was an ISRAELITE, of the tribe of Dan, and a scholared student of the Jewish Faith and Law. He was one of the most zealous infact of ensuring it was followed exactly.

There are suggestions he was also a Pharisee and could have been part there of the Sanhedrin at one time.

This is clear in many of his teachings, that some considered to be anti chrisitan thought. The mysteries themselves are the Ancient Teaching of Judeaism, and Paul taught these with ease. and had little difficulties in expressing these in Christianized terms, (In a manner of speaking, from Paul's perspective)

So, this presumption of the man who ultimately had more input in the directing of the Chruch of Christ than any, (other than Joseph of Aramethia in Britain), is misleading and quite inaccurate. It is exactly the opposite of what you have suggested.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by the_blue_sky11
All of the New Testament Books were written within decades of Jesus' death, because you can see who wrote them, like Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew, Luke wrote the gospel of Luke and The Acts, and Paul wrote many of the epistles, all them who wrote the New Testament lived not too long after Jesus' death, so they couldn't have been written later then the people who wrote them died.

Actually, again with Paul, for some reason, it is believed Paul did not write, but had his letters written by Luke, who traveled with Paul, throughout his ministry.

And it has been based upon the Blinding Light Show God shook Saul's belief system with when he confronted Saul's endeavours to wipe and stamp out everything and anyone Christian.

For Saul and the Pharisee's, the belief in Christ, was a testament that the Jew's would have just led their Messiah to Slaughter. This did not sit well with Saul. It had to be stopped at all costs.

But during this intervention, Paul lost his vision, and it was never really noted how well this came back.

You can even read this in his writing's where both he, and Luke are introduced or noted together.

I will also note, Paul traveled with various companions as well, and some suggest one or more of these have had input in the Writing of the Works attributed to Paul.

But Luke was a Doctor, and a solid companion during the balance Pauls travels. But it maybe unlikely any of them actually where written by Paul.

Not to imply, they where created sometime after Paul's life, but just he did not write them himself.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Also Enkidu - I take Offense at your last couple of Posts - you have Crossed the Line (= calling *ALL Christians* = "total suckers, losers and failures").

Hello Seraphim

Please do not take Enkidu's comments to heart. It should be clear that when discussing such topics, his views are directed solely to have someone take the bait.

But thats what turns his crank.

It's easier to ignore his ramblings and overlook them for what they are.

Do not get me wrong. I too find him to be offensive, but then, I find this is not a perfect world, nor do I expect the pawns of the master to play anyother way.

Nice to see you Stand though.

Have a good evening

Ciao

Shane


[edit on 12-7-2006 by Shane]

Originally posted by zorgon
A little Quiz here.... how many of each animal did Noah take into the Ark? Don't look it up answer honestly...

Two of each Unclean and Seven of the Clean Animals.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by zorgon
I have one question that I have tried to get a proper no BS answer for regarding the bible. Perhaps one of you in this thread can answer...

First there was adam and eve, had two sons cane and able... cain killed able and was bannished. He feared for his life from the other men "out there"... God promised him he would be avenged... then he goes out an marries a woman...


Could someone please explain where all these other people came from?

All you must do is ask my friend.

Gensis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the
earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful,
and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every
tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to
you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the
air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein
there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and
it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it
was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth
day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the
host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had
made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because
that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
and made.
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth
when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the
earth and the heavens,

Sixth day of creation, man, both male and female is created and given dominion over the fruits and ........ of the earth. These are the Races. And to stem the Racist commentary, what is God's position or view at the end of that day?

It was Very Good.

So much for racism.

I also threw in the 7th day, to ensure we still do not see Adam noted. Adam was the man created from the Dust to till the Garden. Think about the farmers??? Hmmm.

Adam was created some thousand of years after the Races.

Lot's of time for Nod to have some hot chicks for the pagan fest that was to occur from the lions of Cain and his decendants.

Any B.S. here????

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by Arcane DemesneHe can't be a "well-meaning, great man" at the same time as claiming to be a diety?

Nope. If he's a MAN, he can't be a DIETY. The two are mutually exclusive, wouldn't you say? And if any MAN claims to be a diety, then he's either nuts or a liar.

So Jesus wasn't a man? He was just some light-colored goop that floated around and had stuff to say about the Jews' God?

I dare you to make less sense!

Originally posted by Essedarius


Every single document I reference is contaminated.
Every single document you would reference is locked away.
That's no fun at all.
If you are going to manufacture groundless arguments, at least manufacture them in a way that will keep the conversation going.

Like to put words in my mouth? fine. I don't care. I'm not a christian, and I don't even care about christian mythology. I was just stating a fact, well documented, ask a historian.

And I didnt say that every document you reference is contaminated, or every document I would reference is locked away. I said some are, others have been put in a firing range and defamed by the church to the point that its just defacto that those are "false."

And please, don't talk to me abut manufacturing groundless arguements, I'm not the one citing a book and claiming it to be fact.

the first books of the new testament , mathew, mark , luke and john were written after jesus died. it was passed down from generation to generation to keep the testament going of jesus' life. i know that there quite a few books missing that were actually written in the time of jesus. jesus' life as a child until he was a man and teaching the gospel. these books were kept out of the bible by constantine somewhere around the year 300 A.D. ( constantine was actually a pagan) because they were too contraversal, it depicted jesus' as an actual person( which he was), instead of a holy being. i think he could have been both, since he was born to the son of man.

so the actual testaments of jesus christ while he was living, is probably somewhere hidden inside the vatican city walls, where most of the truths about religion is hiding.THEY DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW THE TRUTH. DENY DENY DENY

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I was just stating a fact, well documented, ask a historian.

I'm asking you Wolf.
Obviously you must speak to this historian or read these documents...so just give me a title. I'm not trying to be antagonistic...if it is out there, I really want to read it.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
And please, don't talk to me abut manufacturing groundless arguements, I'm not the one citing a book and claiming it to be fact.

Um...

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I was just stating a fact, well documented...

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
So Jesus wasn't a man? He was just some light-colored goop that floated around and had stuff to say about the Jews' God?

Turned water to wine.
Healed the terminally ill.
Raised people from the dead.
Raised himself from the dead.

If that sounds like pure human being to you then you hang out with WAY cooler people than I do.

And he wasn't light colored. He was probably darker...but that's another thread.

Originally posted by Shane
Two of each Unclean and Seven of the Clean Animals.

Thank you Shane. You are the only one who has answered that in a long time...

I find it surprising how many Christians actually don' tknow that, even Sunday schools still teach 2 of each, Childrens TV shows talk only 2 of each. My question was not a wise crack. It seems to me that if people teaching kids the truth of the bible ought to be a little more careful about the little things like this. When you get older and read the passage yourself it makes it a lot easier to be skeptical.

It also would seem logical that if you want someone to take you seriously, it would be good to know your own book. And no this is not a trivial thing, the animals. It merely illustrates my point, and the Noah story is one of the first that kids are exposed to.

I have pointed out many little things like this when I run into "bible thumpers" [not to detract from serious believers]. Usually the response is something like "You will burn in Hell" or "Its not yours to question the Word of God" But they don't answer the question. I think these types of people are the worst enemies of a religion, because they turn away any true seeker.

If I was to assume that your God [in general here] is the truth, then I have to also assume that God gave me the ability to question, for He made me as I am... And if I have the ability to question, then I have the ability to make my own choices, and not fear being struck by lightning because I dare speak my mind. Whether I am right or wrong will be decided at a later date... And NOT by some religious leader on THIS rock...

To Shane
I have read a lot of your posts in many threads. I find you present your case very well so I may have a few more questions...

KING JAMES VERSION

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

You cannot take only 7 and have a male and a female pair. Therefore it is 14 clean beasts or 7 pairs
By the same logic as it is stated the same way, that makes 4 unclean [2 pairs]

In those days the male was considered important, the writing would reflect that.

The interesting thing from a scientific point of view 7 pair and 4 pair make a much more biologically viable number if your goal is to repopulate the earth with creatures.

I wonder why this isn't used more to back bible claims? I suppose Noah would need a bigger ark though...

[edit on 13-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Shane
Could someone please explain where all these other people came from?

Adam was created some thousand of years after the Races.


So Adam and Eve in that train of though are the forefathers of a particlular ummm group effectively? That makes a lot more sense. I have never heard another religious scholar put it quite like that. Most refreshing.

Lot's of time for Nod to have some hot chicks for the pagan fest that was to occur from the lions of Cain and his decendants.

Ah yes those long nights, the dancing girls around the camp fires, the wine, the song... I know them well.... tis good to be king... umm errr

People tend to forget that Jesus also sat by the fire and had some of that wine and watched the dancing girls as he sat with sinners. I recall he used to make water into wine. [would love to have Him around my fires...] And I seem to recall one certain prostitute with the initials MM?

Sounds like a real cool person if you ask me. I still go with my other statement that he said he was the Son of God, and not "I am God".There IS a difference. I still take that and other words He said to mean as we all are the sons of God. It was later he became a Deity.

So can he be a MAN and a DEITY? Sure thing... I don't have a problem with that concept. My own path on the road to enlightenment is taking me from mere mortal to assention on a higher plane. I certainly hope there is more "up there" than mindless grovelling worship at someone,s feet for the rest of eternity. It would be nice to believe that one could advance enough to be able to return as a teacher...

I just cannot believe that all this wonderful universe was created by a vain God that needs sheep to worship him for eternity. He would not have given us our intellect if that was the case.

One question directed to those that believe that God is omnipotent and All Powerfull..

Can God create a rock bigger than he can Lift?

Think about it... I did..

Originally posted by Essedarius
Turned water to wine.
Healed the terminally ill.
Raised people from the dead.
Raised himself from the dead.

Other people before/during/after his time did this as well.

If that sounds like pure human being to you then you hang out with WAY cooler people than I do.

And he wasn't light colored. He was probably darker...but that's another thread.

bold is my emphasis.

So you're suggesting that there's such a thing as pure and not so pure human being now? Isn't that what I very first stated, that he could have been both human AND divine at the same time?!

We're going in circles here. Just admit that he could have been both 1. A good guy (human) spreading a good message, and 2. a diety. Go ahead, it's ok.

I don't believe he was divine, so it doesn't bug me any. I just think he may have been a Buddha.

zorgon.
im wondering if by the initials MM you mean Mary Magdalene? im sure you do, but as you probably know, mary magdalene was not a prostitute, she was a deciple of jesus. she came upon jesus when jesus cast out demons from her. not one place in the bible does it say that she was a prostitute, i dont know how that got started.,,oh wait , yes i do.... i got started by the catholic church, downgrading women ( how suprising) that were close to jesus. all except mother of jesus < mary. they knew that if people knew the real truth about mary, that she wasnt this whore and prostitute, then that would make her an equal to jesus.
women equal with men. thats unheard of!!!! she was the only follower of jesus that did not turn her back and deny jesus when he was being crucified in fear of the romans doing the same to anyone who claimed that they beleived jesus was the son of god. well, just thought i would add that little bit of info for ya!!

in out
-mindtrip02

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne

General response for all..

So you're suggesting that there's such a thing as pure and not so pure human being now? Isn't that what I very first stated, that he could have been both human AND divine at the same time?!

I don't see why this is such a problem. He was born a man... he lived like a man till his 30's, gaining knowlege along the path. If the immaculate conception is true, he may have devinity in his blood, but yet he still is a flesh and blood human..Did he not bleed?

Then he dies, gets reborn and becomes a deity... I thought that was what the Christians have been trying to sell all these centuries... that you need to shed the mortal body and be reborn again...

I mean anyone that can die a man and come back gets my vote on reaching deity status

I don't believe he was divine, so it doesn't bug me any. I just think he may have been a Buddha.

Ahhh Grasshoper... you CAN be taught
You might want to look into ummm secret Tibetian manuscripts hidden in the lamasaries[sp?] if you haven't already. The Red Chinese never did find them when they raided

To Shane

Planting a few seeds myself here