7/7 London Islamic Festival

And i still canot get the hang of using multiple quotes

Sminkey.yet again you have outsourced me in every way, one day mate i will get into a debate with you where i have just a slight chance of winning....
i can do no more than just sit back and let this debate take its toll..
or maybe i could use wikipedia and make out i didnt hahahahahah

SAY NO TO THE EURO (JUST FOR SMINKEY) heheheh

I still agree with FlyersFan on this. It is pretty damn insensitive, and it seems the mator of London is more worried about scoring cool points with the Muslim community than he is with any real rememberance of the victims and tradgedy.

Ill give you an example. Lets say some right wing Christian nut militia gunned down my husband and other people who were attending a rock concert or strip bar because they were on a holy crusade to wipe out sin and sinners. On the anniversary of their deaths, a bunch of moderate churches got together to have a Christian Culture day, sanction by the town council, to celebrate Christianity and Christian controbutions to the world. How would I feel?

Like I had been slapped in the face. If the moderate Christians truly felt bad about the extremists who gunned down my loved ones, and had any sympathy for my loss, they would choose another day or week close by and allow me and the other families the annivesary to reflect and mourn. The last thing I would want would be the group that the perpetrators rubbing their culture and religon in my face while I am grieving the loss of loved ones. Even if the perps WERE extremists and not represenititve of the organization as a whole. I simply would not want a celebration of any kind on that day, period. After all, if Christianity was a religon of peace, then why didn't they police themselves better? Why didn't they show their desire to stop religous hated by rooting out the extremists that give them a bad name?

Call it what you want, I call it insensititvity in the name of political correctness.

If you read it properly you will see that i had quoted from your original source of wikipedia (except you left out the bits of information that i included) and also from the Times i included another article, i never once mentioned that the words were from myself...GOD i am not that inteligent and literate.

Actually, I can only quote so much from each source. If you would bother to read the Terms of this site you would have seen that:

Source
Going forward, if you post something that is not 100% your own writing or work you must use the QUOTE BOX TAG, post NO MORE THAN 15% of the original (or three paragraphs, whichever is least), and GIVE A LINK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL. If the work you are posting is not on the internet, from a book for example, you MUST give a credit for that Book ( the title), its Author and Publisher.

Clearly, I used THREE paragraphs. That means, I could NOT post anymore.

You was the person that quoted wikipedia but only felt it right to include the bits you wanted everyone to read.. i just filled in the gaps of the MASTER OF DOUBLETALK

So instead I gave a LINK so people could do their own research on the issue. Furthermore, you excluded to mention EVERY problem that you raises has NO SOURCE. So the information isn't even valid.

Why thankyou im glad i have made your day, coz the words you originally quoted you or a third party actually copied from wikipedia i was just doing the same.

Yes, I did just quote wikipedia. However, I was good enough to GIVE the link so ALL the information could be read. Furthermore, the parts I mentioned were SOURCED along with the names of the book they got the information from.

Along with 52 innocent people!!
and the injustice still carries on today

I'm involved in more than 52 cases a year, christ I wish I only had to do one a week it'd make my life a lot easier. Yet still, people only want to see those responsible for the crimes convicted and not-innocent people. Be the crimianls Muslims or not.

Let me get this straight...and you work in the Criminal justice System...hum HUM thats says it all in your answere.

Yes, it does I provide a job for people who have been victims of crime.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, the problem you have is that it is an opinion. People thought the idea of a British day, was racist, promoting the wrong idea, would distance the white majority from teh ethnic minorities. When in fact, many of them supported it so much. The point is, what one person thinks is wrong, insensative, etc, is a good idea to another person. Clearly, I do and I am British - born here.

The problem is, people are not bothering to go listen to what is said but instead are judging them on the fact they are muslims. That's all they are judging them on and if we are honestly educated people and an educated society, we would wait to hear what they have to say. Instead, we make pointless and groundless claims like:

mator [Mayor] of London is more worried about scoring cool points with the Muslim community than he is with any real rememberance of the victims and tradgedy.

Clearly he can't win from the Muslim vote alone :-) Furthermore, I seriously doubt he is doing it for that reason. IF it would cause as MANY problems as people CLAIM than he wouldn't do it as he'd loose the next election. The arguement people are putting forward, especailly against Ken is flawed.

Originally posted by spymaster
And i still canot get the hang of using multiple quotes

- You will, just take you time, make sure you get your [ quote ] & [ /quote ] boxes right and preview to check (or edit if you goof).

Sminkey.yet again you have outsourced me in every way, one day mate i will get into a debate with you where i have just a slight chance of winning....

- You get your POV across just fine sm, that's all it is.
I didn't 'win' and you certainly didn't 'lose'; just differences of opinion and different points to consider is all it is.

i can do no more than just sit back and let this debate take its toll..
or maybe i could use wikipedia and make out i didnt hahahahahah

- No wallflower-ing now!
But I'd say the important thing is to have your sources as support to your arguement, they don't make it for you, you still do that sm.

SAY NO TO THE EURO (JUST FOR SMINKEY) heheheh

- There'll be no escaping it one day, you mark my words sm.
(did you see the 'Euro inspires Asia' topic I put up on the Europe board?
Common currencies are catching on, for good reason.)

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Lets say some right wing Christian nut militia gunned down my husband and other people who were attending a rock concert or strip bar because they were on a holy crusade to wipe out sin and sinners. On the anniversary of their deaths, a bunch of moderate churches got together to have a Christian Culture day, sanction by the town council, to celebrate Christianity and Christian controbutions to the world. How would I feel?

Like I had been slapped in the face. If the moderate Christians truly felt bad about the extremists who gunned down my loved ones, and had any sympathy for my loss, they would choose another day or week close by and allow me and the other families the anniversary to reflect and mourn.

- But that's just it Skadi, you are possibly never going feel good about it no matter what, your POV is always going to be skewed by that personal involvement.
That's why we have systems of impartial law and not political or personal law/vendetta/revenge.

If thousands of law-abiding people who had absolutely nothing to do with the outrage are considered to have some sort of tacit connection on the basis of something so vague and general and obviously unconnected like a sharing a religion, even if not the same 'version' of it, that could cause you such outrage then maybe it would be your problem and not theirs.

Why should they be 'punished' and have their rights curtailed to placate a wrong-headed POV?

In the same way that there was an understandable if general and sweeping irrational hatred for all Germans and Japanese and all things German and Japanese in this country post-war it was still wrong when it came down to it.
One could not talk those who lost relatives or whos' loved ones were maimed or damaged by the war out of it and their hurt was very sincere, real and never going to go away.

But 'we' as a nation could not allow ourselves, as a nation, to reflect that by repressive means.

We did not ban Germans or Japanese from the public arena (in fact we started to to try the opposite and get closer to those countries and peoples so as none of us would ever experience those horrors again).

The last thing I would want would be the group that the perpetrators rubbing their culture and religion in my face while I am grieving the loss of loved ones.

- What is the connection here?

"the group that the perpetrators" what?
Came from?
They came from the north of England.
Should 'we' stop people from the north of England doing anything public on every 7/7 from now on.....or just the brown Muslim ones?

Since when does the fact that hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens having the same religion as a terrorist equate to them having to hide that from you or anyone else because some might feel their free and open expression of their religion and culture is some kind of "rubbing" the terrorist's "culture and religion in your face" when it is nothing of the sort?

The IRA came from a mostly Roman Catholic background, should Roman Catholics be barred from any public celebration on the anniversaries of anything horrible that was down to the IRA or their historic predecessors (cos after a couple of centuries of troubles that's most of the calendar wiped out)?
Or on the other side should Protestant peoples be barred from any form of public celebration because the 'Loyalist' terrorists and their historic predecessors came from that background, so as not to offend Roman Catholic people on the anniversary of the horrors they created (.....and now that's just about the entire year gone)?
......and then there are the Crown forces, the involvement of the Irish republic, Americans etc etc.

In Northern Ireland there is huge unrest over the public displays of either culture because it is seen as being done at the expense of the other (rubbing noses in it).
If that is the route you really wish to go down then I can only point you towards NI and advise extreme caution.
It took centuries of animosity and violence to create that reality there.
They only tolerate such displays in their own communities and in some shared spaces (like the centre of city of Belfast, sometimes) anything much beyond that and there is an un-Holy row and sometimes several nights of rioting (in autumn last year it went on for weeks).
That is not a situation anyone in their right mind would deliberately create in the rest of the UK IMO.

The actions of those terrorists had nothing to do with religion or culture, it was not representitive of anything but their own warped ideas and ideals
(and if you honestly think otherwise then why only them?
Where are the tens of thousands of other young men and women acting that way too, here, hmmmm?).

Mind you, treating all Muslims as a possible enemy would be the best recruiting tool you could hand the extremists.
As was seen in Ireland, treating a community from which the bombers came as some sort of 5th column enemy is one sure way of making that paranoid vision come true
(or at least a hell of a lot more true than it ever was before such an approach was taken).

Which would be really dumb as it is so avoidable and unnecessary and would be so costly as well as so wrong.

Even if the perps WERE extremists and not represenititve of the organization as a whole.

- There's no question about it, they were extremists, they always are and they are not representitive of anyone but themselves least of all an entire religion......otherwise they'd all be at it, right?

I simply would not want a celebration of any kind on that day, period.

- Maybe you wouldn't but that is not the sort of grounds on which things get banned and the rights of the innocent trampled.
Like I said however understandable, even if wrong, the feelings of those related to those who suffered or died may be we have impartial justice here, not the justice of the mob
(or that of those who would seek to stir up and try to use the mob).

if Christianity was a religon of peace, then why didn't they police themselves better?

- ?
Members of the public or any religion do do that kind of thing, all the time.

Did you know that at least one of the 7/7 bombers was informed upon to the Police as an extremist nutter by members of a Mosque he had visited?

Why didn't they show their desire to stop religous hated by rooting out the extremists that give them a bad name?

- Again perhaps it is news to you that the 7/7 bombers had had furious rows with the senior people at the Mosque that they had used for meeting at and had left it before they made their attack.

Call it what you want, I call it insensititvity in the name of political correctness.

- Actually I think this is just wanting it both ways.

I think you are the one trying to use a supposedly 'PC' arguement
(or at least the odd version of 'PC' some people seem to think 'PC' is).

Surely the inappropriate 'political correctness' here would be to have many thousands of otherwise totally innocent and law-abiding people restricted in their public actions on the grounds that some other people might find those perfectly legal actions offensive and all due of the utterly unconnected illegal and murderous actions of a relatively tiny group of unconnected extremist individuals?

I'm sorry but what this amounts to IMO is an idea or an attempt at a form of 'collective punishment' due to a notion of 'guilt by association', and all on the basis of a connection which is tenuous in the extreme.

That is just not how we do things in the UK and I suspect when it comes down to it not many other free and democratic countries would go along with that kind of thing either.


[edit on 30-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Why should they be 'punished' and have their rights curtailed .....

Sminkeypinkey ... not sure if I'm following your posts correctly,
and if I have misread them, forgive me.

When i say that these conferences shouldn't be on 7/7, and that the
mayor shouldn't be involved with them on 7/7, that isn't 'punishing'
or 'having rights curtailed'. All I said was that they shouldn't be on
THAT date. If they want a festival with the mayor in a spotlighted
event, a different day would be appropriate.

I didn't say ban them .. I didn't say shut them down ... I said it
was insensitive and that it just shouldn't be on THAT date. I would
hope that the Islamic community would see that it would be insensitive
but apparently not. The mayor can't see that either.
(Unless this was a 'take back the day' sort of thing but I don't see
anything to indicate that it is) And no .. I don't know what they
Mayor is going to say ... that remark is correct. However, the
conference tone doesn't indicate that it is a 'take back the day'
event.

9/11 note .... IF NYC was to host an Islamic festival and have former
mayor Rudy Guiliani giving speeches and the rest ... I would hope that
it WOULDN'T be on 9/11. Even a 'take back the day' event wouldn't
work for 9/11. It is for the victims and families ... it's for the heros of
9/11 on flight 93 and the hero first responders who lost their lives while
trying to save others. It is most definately NOT a day for Guiliani to be
spending in an Islamic festival. It would just be wrong and very
insensitive.


[edit on 6/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Odium
You take an alarmist view point and nit pick specific events to
create scare tactics and a nation of fear, without any ability to
judge their culture.

OMG .. that was funny. It's really YOU who are laughable.

All that rhetoric ... all because I said it was insenstive to have the
festival on THAT date. My goodness .. you are definately taking
an 'alarmist view point' and 'nit picking' (to use your words).
You definately went over the top.

And as far as my ability to 'judge their culture' or not. It doesn't matter.
As i said ... the day isn't about THEM ... it's about the victims and their
families and THOSE are the people that the mayor should be addressing.

It's about THE VICTIMS and THEIR FAMILIES ... and NOT about islamic
festivals and/or conferences. Stating that fact isn't 'creating scare
tactics' ... it's being sensitive to the historical events of that day.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey




- But that's just it Skadi, you are possibly never going feel good about it no matter what, your POV is always going to be skewed by that personal involvement.
That's why we have systems of impartial law and not political or personal law/vendetta/revenge.

What does this have to do with the law? We are talking about a "festival" on what is a day of mourning. What if the German community decided to have a German cultural festival on the first day of the London Bombing Raids?

If thousands of law-abiding people who had absolutely nothing to do with the outrage are considered to have some sort of tacit connection on the basis of something so vague and general and obviously unconnected like a sharing a religion, even if not the same 'version' of it, that could cause you such outrage then maybe it would be your problem and not theirs.

Why should they be 'punished' and have their rights curtailed to placate a wrong-headed POV?

I didnt say anything about curtailing their rights. I didn't say anything about forbidding a festival. I said its poor taste and insensitive to the victims and families to have it on THAT day. The Muslim community has 364 other days and 51 other weeks in the year to choose from.

In the same way that there was an understandable if general and sweeping irrational hatred for all Germans and Japanese and all things German and Japanese in this country post-war it was still wrong when it came down to it.

And they had a damn good reason to. The Germans killed thousands of civilians in bombing raids of no strategic importance, but designed to hurt. There is nothing irrational about it when you look at the situation at the time.

We did not ban Germans or Japanese from the public arena (in fact we started to to try the opposite and get closer to those countries and peoples so as none of us would ever experience those horrors again).

Again, where did I say we should ban Muslim festivals, hmmmmmmmm? Where did I say Muslims should be banned and stuffed in dungeons out of public view?

- What is the connection here?

The bombers on 7/7 were Muslims. The shooters in my fictitious story were Christians. RELIGION. Now religon is quite irrational.

"the group that the perpetrators" what?
Came from?
They came from the north of England.
Should 'we' stop people from the north of England doing anything public on every 7/7 from now on.....or just the brown Muslim ones?

The group in my example were Americans. Its not a case of nationality. Its about religon and ideology. The bombers did their crimes in the name of Islam. The shooters in my fictional piece did it in the name of Jesus.

And I said NOTHING about stopping people from doing anything public. Again, you obviously either have not read my post or are simply seeing what YOU want to see.

What I have said and still say is that is insensitive and rude of the Muslim community to have a festival on THAT day of all days when they have 364 days of the year to choose from. The timing is deliberate. What the intentions are of the planners of the festival, I cannot say. However, insensitive or not, the Mayor of London just adds insult to injury by promoting this.

Since when does the fact that hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens having the same religion as a terrorist equate to them having to hide that from you or anyone else because some might feel their free and open expression of their religion and culture is some kind of "rubbing" the terrorist's "culture and religion in your face" when it is nothing of the sort?

Are you still on your sanctimonious self righteous soapbox?

Since the rest of your post shows that not only do you not read posts but assume that anyone who criticizes anything Islamic must be a Muslim hater who wants all Muslims in jail, Ill make this short and sweet, and hopefully, easy for you to read and comprehend.

I think its rude and tasteless to hold an Islamic Festival coinciding with the day where Muslim extremists blew 60+ people to bits in the name of their god. I thinks its even sicker that the Mayor of London endorses this. It has been only one year since the attacks, and the wounds are still fresh. Time eventually heals. But while the attacks are still fresh in peoples minds and people are without immediate loved ones, I think that Muslims, if they want to show good will, can choose another date to have it.

I did NOT say Muslim festivals should be outlawed. I did not say this one should be outlawed. I am criticizing the rude and tactless timing of this festival, as it shows more a desire for political correctness and appeasement of one group of people than to have some sort of respect for those who still suffer from these attacks.

Its a culture of respect that only flows one way.

Originally posted by Odium

Actually, I can only quote so much from each source. If you would bother to read the Terms of this site you would have seen that:[quote/]

No what you done was to imply with that Tariq Ramadan and Rageh Omaar were both Saints?
You Misled the readers of the thread with only supplying the information you wanted us to read
Granted you did allow the reader to follow the link and read the rest of the article

Originally posted by OdiumSo instead I gave a LINK so people could do their own research on the issue. Furthermore, you excluded to mention EVERY problem that you raises has NO SOURCE. So the information isn't even valid.[quote/]

This information that i supplied which you say isnt even valid was from the same source as you quoted which in turn makes your Original points in-valid.

Originally posted by OdiumI'm involved in more than 52 cases a year, christ I wish I only had to do one a week it'd make my life a lot easier. Yet still, people only want to see those responsible for the crimes convicted and not-innocent people. Be the crimianls Muslims or not.[quote/]

Working on more than 52 so-called crimes a year is nothing to what the the dead , their friends & families, and all the other victims went thru on that day and will NEVER get over.
Dont be so bloody insulting towards these people who had No choice, you get paid to do a job ,so stop winging about it!!!!

Originally posted by OdiumYes, it does I provide a job for people who have been victims of crime.[quote/]

I clearly have got the wrong end of the stick there then? appologies

Originally posted by OdiumSkadi_the_Evil_Elf, the problem you have is that it is an opinion. People thought the idea of a British day, was racist, promoting the wrong idea, would distance the white majority from teh ethnic minorities. When in fact, many of them supported it so much. The point is, what one person thinks is wrong, insensative, etc, is a good idea to another person. Clearly, I do and I am British - born here.[quote/]

SARCASM here Odium but for me and it is only my opinion and i have no references to back it up before you slate me off for it....but
Anyone who turns up at dover will become british within 5yrs..

Originally posted by Odium The problem is, people are not bothering to go listen to what is said but instead are judging them on the fact they are muslims. [quote/]

I havent judged the two men on them being muslim , ive judged them on what i have read (not in books ) but in reports, and i feel they are too extreme and they lie whenever it suits them.

Originally posted by Odium The arguement people are putting forward, especailly against Ken is flawed.[quote/]

No it isnt, he and Galloway have always been right up the Muslim community. There is no way anyone can deny this.

Odium thanks for the help on being able to use the quotes i will try to follow your examples for future reference.

That is the most awesomely horrible 'big quote' I've seen on this board yet.

NYGDAN ..you are right mate it was /is my fault still trying to get the hang of multiple quotes..

TO ALL READERS OF THIS THREAD PLEASE ACCEPT MY SINCERE APPOLGIES FOR THE QUOTES FROM ME I HAVENT YET GOT THE HANG OF IT

TO the mods delete my post if you wish

Originally posted by Flyers Fan
When i say that these conferences shouldn't be on 7/7, and that the
mayor shouldn't be involved with them on 7/7, that isn't 'punishing'
or 'having rights curtailed'. All I said was that they shouldn't be on
THAT date.

- All I'm saying is that to do so is to curtail rights and liberty if only on that date.

If they want a festival with the mayor in a spotlighted
event, a different day would be appropriate.

- Why and who is this "they" you are high-lighting?
If you mean Muslims then the truth is that the vast majority of 'them' will be law-abiding and peaceful British born citizens who abhored the outrage of 7/7 and who are standing up, rightly, to denounce anybody claiming they have a meaningful connection to it.

You do know that Muslims were amongst the victims of the 7/7 bombings too don't you?
Muslim survivors of that terrible day will be amongst the people taking 'centre stage'.

However, the conference tone doesn't indicate that it is a 'take back the day' event.

- Let's be honest, some people wouldn't and couldn't care less what 'tone' was applied.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
What does this have to do with the law? We are talking about a "festival" on what is a day of mourning.

- Well there are 'festivals' and there are 'festivals', right?

You do know that amongst the victims of 7/7 there were Muslims too (some of whom will be taking 'centre stage' at this event?

I didnt say anything about curtailing their rights. I didn't say anything about forbidding a festival. I said its poor taste and insensitive to the victims and families to have it on THAT day. The Muslim community has 364 other days and 51 other weeks in the year to choose from.

- .....and just why shouldn't 'they' create and take part in an event that highlights and illustrates their suffering in this too, hmmm?

.....cos it sure seems like some doing all this 'they' stuff seem to think 'they' have only a highly 'suspect and suspicious' role in all of this, eh?

There is nothing irrational about it when you look at the situation at the time.

- There is everything irrational in choosing to blame people who had nothing to do with inflicting your hurt on such a flimsy and sweeping basis as a shared nationality or religion.

Again, where did I say we should ban Muslim festivals, hmmmmmmmm? Where did I say Muslims should be banned and stuffed in dungeons out of public view?

- The clear implication of your comments has been that 'they' - people who are totally innocent of any involvement or meaningful connection with those terrorists - are somehow wrong to stand up and make themselves and their POV heard on that day.

The bombers on 7/7 were Muslims. The shooters in my fictitious story were Christians. RELIGION. Now religon is quite irrational.

- I have no great love of any organised religion but for all that I won't use that kind of absurdly 'broad-brush' as a basis to impugn others.

The group in my example were Americans. Its not a case of nationality. Its about religon and ideology. The bombers did their crimes in the name of Islam. The shooters in my fictional piece did it in the name of Jesus.

- Which if you extend you analogy to all Christians it simply illustrates just how absurd that kind of 'guilt by (whatever) association' is.

Muslims were victims on 7/7 too you know.
Why should they keep quiet and hide away just in case those who want to try and make this issue revolve around some sweeping and ridiculous point about 'them all having the same religion' can feel better about their ignorant POV.

Sorry if it causes offence and all but the truth of this is far more valuable than some silly grossly wrong-headed attitude and odd POV that would try to make meaningful connections between those innocents (some of whom were also hurt and suffered in the attack) who may share religious background of sorts between themselves and the terrorist bombers themselves.

And I said NOTHING about stopping people from doing anything public. Again, you obviously either have not read my post or are simply seeing what YOU want to see.

- The point of your criticisms was clear.
You don't like it and you thought it shouldn't happen.
Just because you did not come right out and say 'ban it' on that day doesn't make your preference that they should not any less clear.

The timing is deliberate.

- Yes it is, precisely.
It is intended to get people talking and aware that Muslims suffered on that day in those attacks too; which seems to be something new to some people.

Are you still on your sanctimonious self righteous soapbox?

- "sanctimonious"!?
That's just a silly personal attack to avoid answering the point?

Its a culture of respect that only flows one way.

- It appears that perhaps you are only prepared to recognise 'victim-hood' from only one part of the whole community here.

[edit on 30-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

You do know that amongst the victims of 7/7 there were Muslims too (some of whom will be taking 'centre stage' at this event?

And what about the non-Muslims? The majority of victims were non-Muslim. So basically, they do not count?

and just why shouldn't 'they' create and take part in an event that highlights and illustrates their suffering in this too, hmmm?

Because "they" are getting a special, seperate "festival", with the blessing of the city government. In otherwards, instead of being part of the greater whole of Britons who suffer, they seperate themselves and identify as Muslims who suffered.

cos it sure seems like some doing all this 'they' stuff seem to think 'they' have only a highly 'suspect and suspicious' role in all of this, eh?

And of course, there you go again. Thinking that everyone who might say something bad about Muslims must suspect them of conspiracy to do....well...i dunno.

I think I have made it clear that it is insensitive and in poor taste to hold a festival at that date. I believe I said NOTHING about suspicons that they plan to do something nefarious. But of course, you would not be able to understand that, hmmmmmmmmm?

There is everything irrational in choosing to blame people who had nothing to do with inflicting your hurt on such a flimsy and sweeping basis as a shared nationality or religion.

There is not? REALLY? Funny coming from you. Its not the Germans fault they elected Hitler, right? And that the Germans stood by and didn't do a damn thing while the Jews were hauled off to camps? In fact, the Germans were so "disgusted" with Hitler that they only tried to remove him once when they were losing the war badly.

I don't think so. Just as the German people bear a good portion of responsibilities for the horrors inflicted in World War II for their inaction and tolerance of Nazi evil, Muslims everywhere who do not take a tougher stance against psychotic extremeists and actively seek to root out this rot from their faith are just as guilty. If they really want the world to believe that they are for peace and charity, then they need to clean out their own closets instead of blaming the west for the idiots that blow people up in Allah's name.

I feel the same way about Christians too. I have since childhood watched as Christian churches give half hearted denouncements of nutjobs who blow up abortion clinics, or even worse, defend perverts and criminals in their ranks are just as guilty as the actual perps. I also feel the same way about my fellow Americans for re-electing Bush. They are guilty for the destruction of constitutional rights and the continuance of the forever war in Iraq.

Let Muslims and Christians, if they wanna show everyone that they are all not psychotic extremists prove it to the world by cracking down on extremism and corruption of ideals with more than just "denouncing" something.

The clear implication of your comments has been that 'they' - people who are totally innocent of any involvement or meaningful connection with those terrorists - are somehow wrong to stand up and make themselves and their POV heard on that day.

Clear only to yourself. Anyone of a more neutral, unbiased outlook on things would have caught my drift quite easily. But I honestly don't expect you to see it that way. Thats your perrogative, believe it at your own choice.

I have no great love of any organised religion but for all that I won't use that kind of absurdly 'broad-brush' as a basis to impugn others.

Well, thats you. I see it differently. As I have stated, I have seen nothing from either Christians or Muslims that shows they are doing jack about these nutcases.
Let em put their money where their mouths are.

Which if you extend you analogy to all Christians it simply illustrates just how absurd that kind of 'guilt by (whatever) association' is.

Not at all. Ive already stated, if Christians had been more vigilant and more agressive in stamping out adulteration of their beliefs

Muslims were victims on 7/7 too you know.

Yeah. So were many persons of African descent. And many of European descent. I don't see special festivals for them now.

Why should they keep quiet and hide away just in case those who want to try and make this issue revolve around some sweeping and ridiculous point about 'them all having the same religion' can feel better about their ignorant POV.

Who says they have to hide away? Were talking about a FESTIVAL. A very loud, raucous atmosphere. What is the real kicker here is that the city government is kiss assing and applauding and giving their blessings to such an event. If this is about "Muslims who Suffered" then it gives people the impression the city could care less about others who suffered.

Sorry if it causes offence and all but the truth of this is far more valuable than some silly grossly wrong-headed attitude and odd POV that would try to make meaningful connections between those innocents (some of whom were also hurt and suffered in the attack) who may share religious background of sorts between themselves and the terrorist bombers themselves.

The truth of this is a case of a type of politically correct snobbish arrogance on the part of these so called "enlightened" elite.

The point of your criticisms was clear.
You don't like it and you thought it shouldn't happen.

Obviously not cleaqrly enough. My point is I think the idea is in poor taste. What I think shouldn't happen is offical city government involvement.

Just because you did not come right out and say 'ban it' on that day doesn't make your preference that they should not any less clear.

Well, clear to you, because in your mind, for some strange reason, anyone who criticizes Muslims must hate them and wish to see them imprisoned or sent to death camps or something. Its a very curious mentality you have, but not one that is that uncommon amongst certain circles, and certainly one I see alot of. I find it rather amusing. It takes all kinds, I suppose.

Yes it is, precisely.
It is intended to get people talking and aware that Muslims suffered on that day in those attacks too; which seems to be something new to some people.

Only new to people in your mind. Just about everyone I know in London have mentioned the fact that they think Muslim extremists don't care who they kill, because they killed Muslims on 7/7 and in Iraq.

"sanctimonious"!?

That's just a silly personal attack to avoid answering the point?

A personal attack? No. Calling you a pinko commie, daisy sniffer, liberal panty waist are personal attacks. I have said nothing of the sort, though Im quite sure given your line of thinking you will assume I have.

I am simply stating an opinion.

I would have answered your question if there was a point to it that I hand't covered a thousand times already.

It appears that perhaps you are only prepared to recognise 'victim-hood' from only one part of the whole community here.

Again, it appears. Your self righteous assumptions again.

Quite the opposite. I simply do not believe that one chunk of victims should be seperated and "celebrated" as seperate entities. Especially when I still believe the religon as a whole is at fault for laxness and an abysmal track record of actually doing something to stop these nuts.



mod edit[b/] Corrected quoting errors

[edit on 7-7-2006 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
There is not? REALLY? Funny coming from you. Its not the Germans fault they elected Hitler, right? And that the Germans stood by and didn't do a damn thing while the Jews were hauled off to camps? In fact, the Germans were so "disgusted" with Hitler that they only tried to remove him once when they were losing the war badly.

There's a reason as to why I tend to stop posting. It is because as per-normal, people maek comments without bother to do any research. Instead of people bothering to find a Non-muslim person, affected directly by this who has a problem they say there is. Now you go and make wild claims about the assassination attempts on Hitler.

The attempts I remember alone are:
Johann Georg Elser,
Cavalry Captain Eberhard von Breitenbuch,
Colonel Rudolf von Gertsdorff,
Infantry Captain Axel von dem Bussche,
Lt. Colonel Count Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg three times,
Count Fritz-Dietlof von der Schulenberg and
Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben.

They're German, they tried to kill him. Good try though, altering the past always works well.

Maybe it's about time now, you stop pushing such tripe in these threads and go and read the books these people have written? Maybe when you have bothered to do such a thing then you can judge or maybe we should just promote an agenda the Nazi Party would have loved? Guilty without even hearing a single piece of evidence.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And as far as my ability to 'judge their culture' or not. It doesn't matter. As i said ... the day isn't about THEM ... it's about the victims and their
families and THOSE are the people that the mayor should be addressing.

It's about THE VICTIMS and THEIR FAMILIES ... and NOT about islamic
festivals and/or conferences.

Stating that fact isn't 'creating scare
tactics' ... it's being sensitive to the historical events of that day.

What historical events? People were killed by a few sociopaths. People who were also Muslims. They have as much right to hold a festivle in memory of those vicitims as any other person does.

The Mayor will be doing other events. He won't just be appearing at the one. He does have many hours in the day and the time he is speaking is on the 6th OF JULY AT 4:00PM or 16:00HRS. He is not speaking on the 7th of July do you read your own sources?

spymaster, that was not what I was doing at all.

If you'd bother to have paid attention, you'd have seen I am not allowed to post more than three paragraphs. This is what I did, I then gave a direct link to where I got the information from. This allows the people of ATS to go and read for themselves. However, the sources you used are no where near as good as first hand experience with the people you are speaking about. Clearly, you've not read their books so you are not in a position to judge them.

This information that i supplied which you say isnt even valid was from the same source as you quoted which in turn makes your Original points in-valid.

However, the validity of my source isn't in question. The data that you use, as quoted by wikipedia is not citied. This means, anyone can have said it and made it up. However, the information I used was given books that it quotes. Do you see the difference now? Glad you do.

Anyone who turns up at dover will become british within 5yrs..

Yet this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, I couldn't care it's about time we move passed this idea of pointless Nationalism and divition.

I havent judged the two men on them being muslim , ive judged them on what i have read (not in books ) but in reports, and i feel they are too extreme and they lie whenever it suits them.

Which is the problem. Should I judge you on what you say or what people say about you? There's a large difference and one is open to being easily manipulated.

No it isnt, he and Galloway have always been right up the Muslim community. There is no way anyone can deny this.

Of course it is. If there would be such a problem with this event, he'd not get re-elected. The whole Muslim population in LONDON if they were all able to vote, was less than the amount of votes he got last election. Clearly, still people don't read the links I bother to give them.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
And what about the non-Muslims? The majority of victims were non-Muslim. So basically, they do not count?

- That's ridiculous and quite absurd, I never suggested any such thing.

I really can't be bothered with this sillyness.

Between silly assumptions and outright distortion there's little point in this exchange.
When I commented on the illogical hatred of Germany and all things German it was clear I was referring to those who would hate those too young and utterly unconnected to the events of the war.
Not that it stopped you writing a couple of paragraphs about things I didn't say.

It obviously has totally escaped your notice that the one group pretty much invisible in the, several, official events that have taken place to date already are the Muslims.

'They' are tax-payers too, 'they' were hurt in those attacks too and there is no earthly reason why 'they' should not put this in front of those who would deny that and worse add to the outrage of those events by the innuendo that they are somehow less than innocent in this.
'They' are not getting something that others have not gotten.

.....and your idea of what this 'festival' is going to be like are amusing if someway wide of what I have read.

Lastly your comments on 'collective guilt' are particularly tragic and ironic.
Here's hoping you and yours never suffer being judged by such an outrageous 'standard'.
It also seems to have utterly escaped you that such notions are exactly the kind of 'rational' and basis that the terrorist uses as 'justification' in what they do.

Good day.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Between silly assumptions and outright distortion there's little point in this exchange.

Agreed.

Not that it stopped you writing a couple of paragraphs about things I didn't say.

Or you for that matter. But it does not matter.

It obviously has totally escaped your notice that the one group pretty much invisible in the, several, official events that have taken place to date already are the Muslims.

Invisible? Ok now Im laughing. A day does not go by that the media isn't constantly going on about Muslim "invisibility" in this society. They are the most visible minority group in the country.

'They' are tax-payers too, 'they' were hurt in those attacks too and there is no earthly reason why 'they' should not put this in front of those who would deny that and worse add to the outrage of those events by the innuendo that they are somehow less than innocent in this.

Well, of course not. Its a free country for "them" and they can do whatever they like. It does not change the fact that its in pretty poor taste. Poor taste is still legal.

'They' are not getting something that others have not gotten.

Sure they have. They are treated as a completely seperate and special entity, where others are simply grouped together in one big lump.

and your idea of what this 'festival' is going to be like are amusing if someway wide of what I have read.

Glad it amuses you. I am happy I could return the favor.

Lastly your comments on 'collective guilt' are particularly tragic and ironic.
Here's hoping you and yours never suffer being judged by such an outrageous 'standard'.

Too late. I have already "suffered" the collective guilt tag because of past employment, national origin, beliefs, ect. However, I do not totally blow it off as irrational. Half of it is not, and Ive already discussed what that half is.

It also seems to have utterly escaped you that such notions are exactly the kind of 'rational' and basis that the terrorist uses as 'justification' in what they do.

They do indeed. So you are learning a valuable lesson. There is no such thing as an "innocent".

Good day.

Good Night.

I left this in the hope that you would revise and edit what you had said but you obviously preferred not to.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
It does not change the fact that its in pretty poor taste.

They are treated as a completely seperate and special entity, where others are simply grouped together in one big lump.

- It's pretty obvious that the entire premise of this complaint is ill-founded.

The planned Islam expo is only one of several events this summer to which the GLA and/or Ken Livingston is connected.
The 'Rise: London United Festival' is not 'a Muslim festival' at all and quite obviously neither is the 'Pride' festival.
www.london.gov.uk...

The Islam expo
islamexpo.info... (talking about Islam and amongst other things explaining and highlighting the hurt and suffering of Muslims in these events) is only a part of what is going on (with a GLA/Mayoral connection), the whole season of events are not exclusively Muslim events at all.

The attempt to portray this summer's events as solely a GLA/Mayoral 'Muslim festival' alone is IMO yet another symptom of the grotesquely selective attitudes, biased distortion and vile innuendo being pointed at Muslims by some here and elsewhere.

Happily the various events will certainly turn out to have attracted the support of huge numbers of Londoners (Muslim and non-Muslim).

The various events are not just 'for Muslims' or all about Muslims, not even Islam expo.

So you are learning a valuable lesson. There is no such thing as an "innocent".

- Oh really?

No.
Sadly the only truth and "valuable lesson" I've learnt here is a little about the revolting and repellent attitudes you hold.

There are "no innocents", eh?

I'm sure the 9/11 victims families along with every terrorists' victim would be as disgusted as I to hear that kind of vicious stupidity.

*ignore*



[edit on 5-7-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I left this in the hope that you would revise and edit what you had said but you obviously preferred not to.

Now why would I? Because I don't believe like you do?

It's pretty obvious that the entire premise of this complaint is ill-founded.

Im sure there are many who would disagree.

The planned Islam expo is only one of several events this summer to which the GLA and/or Ken Livingston is connected.

That certainly does not surprise me.

Oh really?

No.
Sadly the only truth and "valuable lesson" I've learnt here is a little about the revolting and repellent attitudes you hold.

Im glad you find them so. The fact I dont agree with your very rigid and narrow view on life makes my view revolting and repellant. In my eyes, and comming from your words, I find that a good thing.

There are "no innocents", eh?

No, there arent, and never have been. But thats a debate for a more in-depth and quantum discussion.

I'm sure the 9/11 victims families along with every terrorists' victim would be as disgusted as I to hear that kind of vicious stupidity.

Who knows. Not that you would care much anyway.

*ignore*

Really? I hope you are not just teasing me. I am holding you to that promise!

I'm a bit shocked to be honest. I mean, couldn't have they waited another year when the event wasn't so fresh in everyone's mind?
This might cause more aggro.