The Bible is open to interpretation, thus cannot be used as factual evidence

Sun Matrix:
Yes you have a real problem with the word fact don't you? There is no need to be afraid of it, just learn the concept and all will become clear. Thankfully, I have already gone to the trouble of demonstrating it for you in the thread supplied to Shane above. If you've finished eating the humble pie served to you in that thread, you may want to revisit it, as you obviously missed a few classes in the education process.

Originally posted by mytym
Time and time again I notice members here on ATS citing Bible references as forms of proof to support a particular point of view. I have no problem with people believing in and following the teachings of the Bible, but when it comes to presenting quotes from the Bible as facts, I take issue with it...f the Bible is open to interpretation, then using any passage in the Bible as factual proof is not permitted, as a different interpretation of the passage will result in a different conclusion. Some argue that the Bible requires no interpretation, and can be taken literally. If this is your belief that is fine, but please do not make any interpretations or assumptions to explain the passage when using it to
support a point of view. [edit on 27/5/06 by mytym]

There is on the tip of my tongue a response that questions your assumption of the role of rule setter for what and what not the Bible can be used to point to as fact.

Let's you and me just assume for a half-second that the Bible is what it claims itself to be, ie God-breathed Truth and that complete Truth because the One Who breathed it is the One Who created all things seen and unseen: Now, who can set the parameters of what is and what is not fact if we DON'T use the Bible to do so?

If you were put in God's position in the above scenario, who would you assume has the right to make the rules about facts, and their existence or non-existence?

I can hear laughter about now, as "you", being in God's place, look down on the pitiful attempts of man to make the rules.

Now, you've heard the Christian view of why we hold the Bible to be High, Holy, and God revealing. Now you know why we "quote" it, which thing seems so distasteful to your "understanding darkened" mind. (If you want to know why I "quote" that, find a Bible, and turn to Ephesians 4:18 in the New Testament.)

If i were to name one thing that would convince me that the bible is truly the inspired Word of God, it through its prophecies.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jesus said... John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

I mean come on, Christ prophecized the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd Jewish temple 40 years prior to it happening.

Christ said that the gospel would be a witness unto all nations before the end of the world...

Matthew 24:14 (Whole Chapter)
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I would dare say that through the internet and other forms of media that soon the whole world will know what christianity is.

Even secular archaeologists could not debunk the historic accuracy of the bible.

Some secular historians even tried to argue that the book of Daniel was written during the Roman Empire, because the prophecies of Daniel concerning the 4 world empires that would rule the Earth ( babylon, medes-persians, Greece, Roman Empire) were too accurate. Of course that argument was disproven when they found the dead sea scrolls.

Christ said that in the end times many shall come in his name and shall deceive many... I think this is pretty evident considering the thousands of denominations all claiming they have the bible truth yet all of them disagree in doctrine.

There are so many numerous prophecies in the bible that have come to pass, which leads me to believe that if God does know the future, then this world will come to an end, that there is a heaven, and that the bible is the inerrant Word of God.


And for those argueing that the bible was used for murder, death, etc etc.

it is the same argument for say a gun. A gun can be used to protect people's lives, but if given to the wrong person, it can be used to murder people.

How can you generalize that the bible is an evil book when it can be used for either good or evil is beyond me.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by Shortness]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
It is the truth, and the Word of God. The Bible is written by men who were inspired by God.

What about the Koran? The Torah? The Holy Books of Hinduism? The same can be said for all these scriptures, as well as their historical accuracies. In fact, much of what is in the Bible is also in the Koran, including many of their moral-inspiring stories, and 'commandment-like' sections on how to lead a good and just life.

The only real differences between the Bible and Koran are that Muhammed takes the place of Jesus, not as his son, but as his prophet, and that readers of the Koran have established a much stronger will when it comes to following their "commandments" and are much more devoted to the entire lifestyle of their religion. (And let it be noted that if you don't actually KNOW a muslim in real life, you cannot use the media-version of muslims as objection to any of this, because they are an EXTREME minority!)


In any case, if you were ever to actually sit down and read any of these three books and looked past the obvious differences (ie: Jesus is the son of God, there is only one God, etc.), you'll find that they are all incredibly similar in their content.


As a reverend friend of mine once said: "Those who show the most wisdom of their religion, show it only because they've studied that of other religions, and still know their own to be true."

Originally posted by truthseeka
Seems to me you INFERRED this elusive "light" to be the sun. I read it straight from the book where the sun comes after plants. Was this some pervasive light that shone throughout the universe when it was just planets and hunks of rock? If this "light" and the sun are interchangeable, why were they created on separate days?

This post caught my attention because I wondered on the same subject for many years, even though I've read the entirety of the Bible on several occasions and studied it piecemeal for many years.

Then one day, like a bolt out of the blue, as is said before we learn that revelation comes from God, it hit me:

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (First Day)

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;....16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (4th Day)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That's pretty interesting, curiousity.

However, that still does nothing for plants being created before the sun.

Originally posted by Draconica
What about the Koran? The Torah? The Holy Books of Hinduism? The same can be said for all these scriptures, as well as their historical accuracies. In fact, much of what is in the Bible is also in the Koran, including many of their moral-inspiring stories, and 'commandment-like' sections on how to lead a good and just life.....The only real differences between the Bible and Koran are that Muhammed takes the place of Jesus, not as his son, but as his prophet

Are you aware that one of the sons of Abraham, Ishmael by name, is father of the Arabs?, which makes Abraham their forefather as well as he is of the Jews?

The Koran is a take off on the Torah of the Jews, so quite naturally it is somewhat similar. However, Mohammed is not in the "place of Jesus", since he is not the Son of God, with that title bestowed on him by God Himself, but a false prophet who has led many away from the true Son of God and into the path of destruction.

In any case, if you were ever to actually sit down and read any of these three books and looked past the obvious differences (ie: Jesus is the son of God, there is only one God, etc.), you'll find that they are all incredibly similar in their content.

Neither is this surprising of the Torah, since the God of the Jews is the Father of Jesus and the God of the Christian as well.

As a reverend friend of mine once said: "Those who show the most wisdom of their religion, show it only because they've studied that of other religions, and still know their own to be true."

Reverend is God's Name, (God's alone, and should never have been taken up by man, imho)Psalm 111:9

Just FYI, and certainly not because I'm proud to be able to say it, I HAVE studied other "religions" and found them offensive to my awakened spirit and to my God Who has saved me from my sins and hell, and Who watches over me with tender, loving care, to Whom I give all praise, honor and glory both now and forever!

(edited to remove dark type)

[edit on 28-5-2006 by curiousity]

Originally posted by truthseeka
That's pretty interesting, curiousity.

However, that still does nothing for plants being created before the sun.

Did I miss a post? I don't understand your statement in relation to the Light and the lights. I might venture a guess, but I'd rather you'd explain, if you don't mind.

Originally posted by mytym
Sun Matrix:
Yes you have a real problem with the word fact don't you? There is no need to be afraid of it, just learn the concept and all will become clear. Thankfully, I have already gone to the trouble of demonstrating it for you in the thread supplied to Shane above. If you've finished eating the humble pie served to you in that thread, you may want to revisit it, as you obviously missed a few classes in the education process.

Actually, you have tasted a continual azz kicken and are too blind to see it.
You crutch is gone, your question was answered, and you have brought no more evidence to the table. The Bible is the Word of God, FACT, whether you believe it or not is not going to change the facts.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The Bible is the Word of God, FACT, whether you believe it or not is not going to change the facts.

Sun Matrix,
This is just a variation of what I and many others have said to you before:

"Stating something is a fact will not magically turn it into one."

This is not the first time I've seen you falsely accusing people of not producing evidence to back their claims.. though I am still yet to see you back up ANYTHING you have said.

i graduated from a Catholic High School, in all four years of religion we have been taught that the old testament is 90% folklore with some events mixed in but also distorted, new testament is still said to be inspired by the lord and completly true.

Originally posted by ProjectChaos
i graduated from a Catholic High School, in all four years of religion we have been taught that the old testament is 90% folklore with some events mixed in but also distorted, new testament is still said to be inspired by the lord and completly true.

that's ironic, considering Christ himself said to search the scripture ( Old Testament ) John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

and if the New Testament is inspired, then...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then again, catholicism teaches that you should believe in "sacred tradition" Sorry, but i'll believe the bible and the OT because Jesus said so over "sacred tradition"

curiousity:
I believe I have made this assumption as stated in the opening line of my opening post. With this assumption in place, as mentioned in a previous post, many of the passages in the Bible are ambiguous, thus despite their assumed accuracy, still require interpretation. The interpretation is what gets bandied around as fact to support a point of view. This is where the problem lies.

Sun Matrix:
No matter how many times you continually post the same lies, it will not magically become true. You have already lost all credibility long ago, now it seems that you have lost your courage too, which is evident in your fear of addressing any point that I raise. You've disappeared from every other thread that I have challenged you on as a result of this fear, so I wonder how long it will be until you disappear from this one?

Well, let's just see Mytym. Here is a statement you made.

One of the downfalls of the Bible is that it provides so many opportunities to be proven wrong.

Here was my response.

Well, I'm going to give you a chance to produce one of these many opportunities. I don't want a list of crap, just one of these many so called opportunities to prove the Bible wrong. You have the whole Bible to pick from. What you got?

After you running your mouth about the many opportunities to prove the Bible wrong, You only had one response which I quickly answered.

That's where all this started, so lets go back to the beginning.

Produce one fact to prove the Bible wrong, since you said there are so many.

:cool

posted by dbates
We must lean heavily on the ancient texts such as the Old Testament to prove the worthiness of the newer text, such as the New Testament. The Bible is in fact a sort of a hologram in that the message of the Bible and the desired knowledge is spread out over the Entire Bible. Show me the chapter that reveals the coming Messiah, or the verse that tells us of the Second Coming. These ideas are spread out over the entire Bible so that by removing portions, even entire books, we don't lose the message. We just lose some of the resolution. The image stays the same.

The author of the Bible knew that it would come under attack, so like a general sending an important message to his troops, the message is delivered through different messangers, and at different times making it nearly impossible to stamp out the main ideas of the Bible. Is it possible that some books are missing? Yes, but that doesn't mean that what we have left isn't an accurate picture of what we are supposed to see.

The Inspired Word of God......


The Bible may contain words that are inspired by god, but to say the entire Bible is the work of God cannot be justified.


Christ did not leave written records because of this fascination people have with physical objects, the shroud of Turin is a good example. Had CHrist left a written book, people would worship the book and leave their brother to die from hunger.

Todays fascination with all things Biblical is no less a tragedy than what Christ tried to avoid in the first place. Who better to write a book than Christ, he deliberately Chose not too...WHY? ( christ wrote in the sand, and even then would scribble it out when finished)

Because exactly what has occured, men hijacked his teachings, and turned them into justification for killing each other, the subjegation of women, and blindly placing their faith in a Book, rather than accepting what was taught.

It always sickened me to see people treat the Bible with such reverence, and then lie cheat, steal, brutalize, ( priests molesting children)....they dont follow God, they follow a Book.




Todays fascination with the book of revelations is another aspect. Churches have gone buck wild with the end of days....and for good reason. It is no different than the government hysteria surrounding terrorism, they increase power using fear and terror.
the Book of revelations comes from the Sybilline prophecies (also called oracles), these were very popular in Rome for hundreds of years before Christ walked the earth. They were written by Women, who lived in caves and consumed drugs to attain mystic visions, which were written down.
These oracles were modified and converted, much like any written work. they evolved into the book of revelations.

Revelations was added to the bible to attract the vast horde of Romans who believed in the Sybilline oracles. How many people through the ages have come to know god from Fear instead of Love, from a book instead of looking within themselves, which is where the Kingdom truly exists.

it is a Book, complied and distorted by Men. It contains Truths mixed with paranoid delusions, incredibly simple and succint commands from Christ mixed with mysoginist ramblings from Paul.

Hewbrew is directly descended from the Phoenician language.

Actually the Hebrew, Aramaic, Phoenician & Greek Alphabets all CORRESPOND to each other.

The Mathematical argument is also relevant because the Letters & Words of these Ancient Languages all indeed have Numerical Values that can be computed.

Of-course the Bible is Open to Interpretation! ALL books are open to Interpretation! As a matter of fact IT SAYS right in the Bible that God endowed us with the capacity for Free Will & Free Thought!

[edit on 28-5-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by toolman

Because exactly what has occured, men hijacked his teachings, and turned them into justification for killing each other, the subjegation of women, and blindly placing their faith in a Book, rather than accepting what was taught.

It always sickened me to see people treat the Bible with such reverence, and then lie cheat, steal, brutalize, ( priests molesting children)....they dont follow God, they follow a Book.

you are so right. men has hijacked his teachings and turned them into justifications for their own satisfaction. but they do not follow this book nor do they put faith in this book. they do just as you say and turn the words and twist the words take words out put words in until the population thinks that it is some wacked out fasle book. just as the priests that come out of the catholic church do not even follow the bible. they know the power of it but will not teach it. the church has replaced the bible with thier own. they dont follow god nor do they follow the book called the bible. the true messages that are in the bible are being hidden from the world. they are not taught in the religious movement past or present. yes they will tell you that they are teaching truth but are far from it.

people do not have the motivation to study and understand the bible so they depend on religous leaders to do that for them...by the time these guys have a few thousand years of fasle teachings just imagine what people now belive.... the population now calls christmas christs birthday and celebrate it with a fat guy in a red suit...talk about no knowlege of the bible....it insanity....and should i mention a rabbit hopping around hiding eggs??.....christ should have been warned us about such false prophets...oh wait he did.

Originally posted by curiousity

Originally posted by truthseeka
Seems to me you INFERRED this elusive "light" to be the sun. I read it straight from the book where the sun comes after plants. Was this some pervasive light that shone throughout the universe when it was just planets and hunks of rock? If this "light" and the sun are interchangeable, why were they created on separate days?

Then one day, like a bolt out of the blue, as is said before we learn that revelation comes from God, it hit me:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You see Truthseeka, it will become a theology lesson.

I concure with the notations above by Curiousity. but there are things missing, that deal with The Previous Earth Age, This Earth Age, and The Coming Earth Age, that are not being addressed.

I noted something in a reply to our Beer Guy pal, who seemed thrilled to know about the Famed King James, and maybe presumed others didn't. Anyhow, Biblical Teachings clearly denote, there IS, Three Earth Ages, which are spoken to in many places in the scriptures.

Again, I will note the following for consideration, and ask, if this is contrary to your or anyones beliefs, then take the time to review what I will note. I am not B.S.ing anyone. Use the KJV and a Strongs Concordance, Word for word, meaning for Meaning. You will understand.

The Hebrew text does suggest, Genesis 1;2 begins as, And the earth became a waste and a desolation and then continues quite inline with the balance of the noted text in that verse.

The simple implication is then, Genesis 1;1 In the Begining, God Created what???

The Heavens and the Earth, of course.

What are the Heavens? The Sun, Moon, Stars, Solar System infact. Everything was created in the Begining.

Everything was complete. The First Earth Age.

Look further on in the Storyline, and get to Day Six. Review carefully, what man, both male and female was supposed to do.

Are they to Plenish to earth? No, they are to REPLENISH the Earth. Obviously, it was previously populated.

Now, I hope you do check to verify this. It is something that I believe everyone who is a Christian should be required to address, but then, maybe that is just me.

We can also examine other sources, but rather than amass a litany of work for nothing, I offer the following for consideration, since they have done most of the Groundwork.

www.biblestudygames.com...

This text is quite to the whole Point Truthseeka. Your name implies, this is something you are seeking, and I can not find a better way to offer it than this.

Also, as the very first paragraph suggests, read about the 'REBELLION OF SATAN'

This is what created the situation we find in Genesis 1:2, And the earth became a waste and a desolation. Hell, even his name is in the Verse. Satan is the Desolator, along with an array of titles.

But that should do for now. And if you have any questions always, feel free to ask, and that goes for anyone, (Even the Doubters). I may not have an answer, but I am sure we can figure it out. Like I said, It's not Brain Surgury.

Ciao

Shane