The 4th dimension concept

So far Ive been very impressed with the intelectual level of this board, and I have a question I have been pondering for some time now.

Lately my efforts have been directed toward contemplating and meditating on the concept of the 4th dimension. This has been exceedingly difficult being that every day we wake up we are drowning in 3D input and social static. The only scientific explaination I could find was the example of the Tesseract (the 4th dimensional manifestation of the cube). To my understanding it has been described as this...

0 dimension is a dot
1st dimension is a line from a dot
2nd dimension is a square from a line
3rd dimension is a cube from a square
and the 4th dimension is a perpetual quadruplication of the cube

Ive been able to acheive visuals to push me along in understanding the concept of the 4th dimension, but I dont seem to have an explaination verbalized simple enough for me to quite get started. Does anyone have any more in-depth experience in this matter? Preferably scientific references (not to rule out the metaphysical, just scientific seems to speak in terms more acceptable to the logical human psyche)

Heres the materials Ive found so far...
dogfeathers.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
mathworld.wolfram.com...

[edit on 18-4-2006 by transparency]

Got this thread bookmarked now, I would really like to know more too. Ever since I saw the movie Cube 2: Hypercube, I've really been eager to be able to visualise it myself.

In the movie the 4th dimension is time.

Is a tesseract supposed to show a 4th physical dimension or what? As in, our 3 physical dimensions being able to be in the same spot several times. (Dont know if that was explained clearly, its a bit tricky)

Try Visualizing the 4th Dimension Using Color.



[edit on 4/18/2006 by Rev_Godslapper]

IMO, I belive time is the 4th dimension. For example a plant. Its size varies based on te time allowed to grow.

To tell you all the truth i find it easier to understand if you think of it mathematical rather than try to visulize a 4D object in a 3D world, it just doesn't work. I like the way they used colour to describe which works well. But when trying to like at it as a recursive formula you can begin to understand it. just like putting a square onto a square to create a cube. Then taking a cube and doing the same thing with it to create something that is 4D. Just mentally thinking how that can work confuses our minds, it believe it is one of those concepts that will come with time. it took me 4 years of constant thinking about it to have it just "click" you'll know it when it happens. Gods playing tricks with us, he makes us have patience even though that patience is what in the end kills us.

[edit on 19-4-2006 by formoneyormind]

Originally posted by DarkHelmet
IMO, I belive time is the 4th dimension. For example a plant. Its size varies based on te time allowed to grow.

I dont really think the author of this thread asked about time.. he asked about a 4th spacial dimension.. time is time imo.

Ah! Someone at last to discuss 4-dimensional physics and concepts!

I love the 4th dimension, and trying to envision it as well. I do a lot of drawing of tesseracts, trying to figure it all out. I actually was able to, on my own, figure out how many sides, edges, and verticies a hyper-cube SHOULD have.

Drawing Hypercubes is probably the best thing for you to do to start extending your visualizations of them. The tricky part comes when you have to realize that the cube inside the regular cube is the SAME SIZE as the regular cube (remember, in a cube, all sides are equal length). Also, even more confusingly, the edges that move through the 4th dimension (or in the drawings, the ones that AREN'T at right-angles when conceptualized 3-dimensionally) are also the same length.

This leads to paradox that cannot be solved in 3-dimensions.

It's at that point that you start making your mind work in 4-dimensions.


Another important tool to understanding 4-dimensions is to try to understand General Relativity. Not just what it means, but how it works.

In truth, it's ALL 4-dimensional information. A body of mass (say the earth) creates a "dimple" in space-time. Space-time is 4-dimensional. If you simplified it, it's a bend in the piece of rubber you always hear about, but now you have to take that (essentially 2-dimensional) rubber sheet with a 3-dimensional warpage, and remember that it's now 3-d rubber (and it's everywhere in the universe), but that it warps into a 4th dimension.

Given that the 4th dimension is time, this is why it's space-time.

Imagine a grid in space now, a 3-d grid (so a bunch of cubes, hurray for cubes). If this is to be our rubber sheet, when you pass the earth through the grid, what happens to the grid? It bends, and shifts, and you'll see the lines of the cubes become distorted as they bend INWARDS into the planet earth (also note that this inwards is not unlike the attempted drawing of a 4-d object's inwards).

Back to the rubber sheet, we put something heavy in it, it doesn't just create a dimple, but a big pothole. So large that you can spin something (a marble) around it. If you could throw it just right, and the rubber was frictionless, then the marble would circle forever inwards towards the basketball in the middle.

Back to the grid, you have the earth. Throw the moon in there, and since the grid is "insubstantial", and so is without friction, the moon circles the earth indefinitely, always falling inwards.

Now you're coming to understand how gravity is NOT a force, but rather an effect of the warpage of space-time!

Now you also can understand how light is affected by "gravity" even though it doesn't have mass - because the path that it's travelling along is now warped and changed.

Fun stuff, eh?

Originally posted by formoneyormind
To tell you all the truth i find it easier to understand if you think of it mathematical rather than try to visulize a 4D object in a 3D world, it just doesn't work.

I dont agree on that. Its possible to draw a 3-dimensional cube on a 2-dimensional piece of paper.

I like how this figure visualises it:



Thats exactly how i was trying to explain the 4th physical dimension.

Originally posted by Thain Esh Kelch
I like how this figure visualises it:



Thats exactly how i was trying to explain the 4th physical dimension.

Yeah, it looks like a cross between a bugle and a toilet.

Let it be said that the bugle toilet (though a good illustration) was a nice humorous break from the in depth mental imagery.

It has also been illistrated that there are no "objects" persay in 4th dimensional view. That every "thing" in 4D is interconnected with the enviroment/universe and thus perpetual (time?). For example the tesseract (yay for cubes again) takes the visual form of a cube, but hypotheticly has no front or side or rear view at any given moment, and is somewhat in a state of constantly imploding on itself. Then again ive just caught myself speaking 3rd dimensionally by saying front, side, or rear. crap.

I just beleive that 4D is a spacial dimension. It could have time like characteristics to it, such as perpetuality, but that it is indeed a dimension with a universal enviroment LIKE ours that can hold matter. This is where I start branching out from common theory. I beleive the matter that is contained in 4D has mass, but has no edges or vertices like the other preceeding dimensions posess, therefore no front, side, or back(3 dimensionally speaking). The mass's exsistence bends the grid of the electromagnetic spetrum as previosly mentioned, but pulls its exsistence/energy from the grid and exhausts it perpetually, never once having a start or a finish....a front or a back....a beginning or an end.

The realm of the God.

The other side.

Infinity.

Take your pick.

My little brother was viewing a website that had an animation of the 4th dimension. I don't know if this is accurate or not but I thought of this thread as soon as I seen this. So here you go

(Warning, be prepared for somewhat loud music)
fourd.ytmnd.com...

Hmmm 4th dimension is perception. That is my take. Time as a concept revolves around what and who is percieving it. For instance , we have a clock, day and night cycles. Remove those/ Now take an instance where time seems to drag on forever and an instance where time flies by . The only thing keeping us aligned and on schedule are markers we percieve. Time revolves around the consciousness. Otherwise, time becomes so abstract and undefined , its conception would not be fathomed . Yet Cause and effect would still linger on.

I have a theory about the extra dimensions.
3 dimensions are physical
1 dimension is time

The dimension time is transperant and you measure this with a clock no doubt. Altough you cant influence its 'rule set'.

If extra dimensions were to exist, they would influence the way certain energies and matter interact with each other. If you existed on these planes you could essentially change the rules. You would be able to witness the world in 360, where no point of sight exists. Its basically the change from concious awareness and senses to understanding space time in multiple levels where there is no scale, you dont view things around you, you interact with and therefore you are aware, you could influence time, you see the universe from the smallest atom out to the largest galaxy. You may even witness the 3rd dimension like the matrix, but not on a screen. For example, you may see when someone jumps in the air, the effect of gravitty pulling them down and instantly know the level of force pulling the person down. If someone breaths, you are able to witness the air flow through the human body. If a star explodes you witness everything every piece of evidence at the same time.. light, heat, reactions, x-ray, sub-dimensional effects, sound etc as a colorful display or as a simple as being aware.

Fannek77 -

What education/experiences/etc do you think have influenced your hypothesis of extra dimensional exsistence? Your description in nature is almost exactly like mine. uncanny.

I know its a bit of a sidestep, but just a note...

Perhaps we should referr to that as the Fifth Dimension, as Time is often referred to as a fourth dimension.

1. Dot
2. Flat plane
3. Solid space
4. Dimensions position and alterations within time
5. Continuous dimensions within time

not really important as you thouroughly explained what it is youre talking about, we know what youre referring to...

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
Hmmm 4th dimension is perception. That is my take. Time as a concept revolves around what and who is percieving it. For instance , we have a clock, day and night cycles. Remove those/ Now take an instance where time seems to drag on forever and an instance where time flies by . The only thing keeping us aligned and on schedule are markers we percieve. Time revolves around the consciousness. Otherwise, time becomes so abstract and undefined , its conception would not be fathomed . Yet Cause and effect would still linger on.

As a psych student I might be somewhat bias but I completely agree with that. This universe is based on conscious minds recording and perceiving. In some ways I think that everything that can possibly happened has already happened. We've just been stuck at a point in between the begin and the end. If I could imagine myself born outside of time my perception of this universe would be instant but since we're inside of time we witness the change and flow of energy as the universe sorts itself out, in whatever manner it may be.

This is somewhat off topic but could eventually be related back. Think of a time when you experience a friend leaving, where you knew that in 20 minutes they would be gone and this moment would only be a memory. I tend to think like that in certain scenarios and it always has this odd calming effect on me. It begins to feel like i'm watching everything happen, not so much that i'm experiencing it but as if I've recorded this moment and now I'm going back to watch it. Almost reliving the memory as it's being created. What if when our conscious mind accepts a certain time path or consequence and that thought is somehow integrated into reality. People always talk about the power of positive thinking but what if there is something too it beyond gaining internal confidence or strength.

Sorry, i'm not trying to thread jack with the offtopicness but I'm very interesting in the role that other dimensions, whether time or otherwise, influence our 3d reality. I'll definately have to look into the hypercube and other similar structures.

From my own understanding, I think Yarium has described it the best. I believe that the 4th dimension is an underlying dimension that is affected by mass. I don't think time itself is a dimension, rather a means to measure change within other dimensions, which is also affected by or associated with the 4th dimension. As Yarium was saying. the 4th dimension bends around mass, the heavier something is, the more it bends. And thus gravity is an attraction of mass to other mass, moving along these bends. The more mass something has, the more it bends space-time, the stronger it's gravity is.

Now trying to visualise something with 4d properties is quite hard. How many dimensions are there in string theory? No wonder all those quantum physicists are having a tough time understanding it all.

i think that the 4th dimention is time too, not sure about this hypercube idea. :-/

Transperancy
Im not sure if any education i had influences my answer. I think its just a matter of reading concepts/facts and working out a realistic truth to things. I try and look for answers where most people see no answer. I work through possible answers untill i find something that seems right - i then go over the idea and find holes in the theory that suggest it not correct.
Im not even close to being right at this stage but since when has a 19yr/old written a theory that was groundbreaking?


Following on:
Remember those pictures taken from NASA satellites. The deepscope sats?
Basically these can see amazing distances into our universe and the pictures that come back date 5 billion years after the big bang right? Light doesnt travel fast enough to provide 'current' images although.
So this means time is the forth dimension.
Time only exists because our brains recall events before a 'current' event - the measure of time itself.
If someone were to travel through time using extra dimensions - this would open the door to the idea that multiple-universes exist together. If there were only 1 plane for time itself, time travel would not occur and/or this would open the door to traveling back before the big bang and therefore our universe would not exist.

So what are we left with? Extra Dimensions that exist together - we dont know what they are and what they do
But look at it this way:
*freeze time* Everything big and small is set in time -> the rules of sub-dimensions cause a change -> change occurs -> result is determined and bind -> sub-dimensions now interact with the result -> differant change occurs -> result is then determined (for another change to occur, it does so with the result given)
The above can therefore be measured in time because we have a start, middle and end.

Extra Dimensions:
1 zero point
2 2d plane
3 3d plane
4 time
5 sub-dimension plane (binds all things together into a single state. Like a web that links sub-space together - universal rules for light, gravity, energy etc apply no matter where located) (the energy of a black hole basically restricts the link causing a point in space that doesnt (occur -> result).
6 sub-dimension atom level plane - binds elements together.. (holds elements in place and when a change occurs, binds together) basically provides a point in space where elements can 'stick' next to another. This gives us the 3rd dimension
7 Multiple universe planes - unsure if these exist, unsure how to explain it
8 Inverted dimension - Invert time and dimensions (5) (6). This could show you the past.
9 Re-inverted dimension - either opens up a new universe on (7), or time steps back and continues on without change as inverting would occur at 'string' level, therefore any memories did not exist yet and no one gets hurt.
10 Cant even guess.. lol
(anything after this point is silly to guess)
The above is off the top of my head guess nothing more.. im not linked with the sub-dimension lol, so its a rough draft theory most likely wrong.. enjoy

[edit on 3-5-2006 by fennek77]

reply to post by transparency

I actually came to this site to reveal my 4d discovery... good question, I have the answer.

www.toequest.com... /6035-the-spatial-4th-dimension-revelation-2012-a.html

Let 4 cubes occupy the same space at the same time and retract away from each other them like a tetrahedral bond, 109.28 degrees. Here is the detailed report and rap video! make it viral. I put the video and report out this morning, the video is 3 days early, I tagged it for 4-20. you will see what I mean if you watch the video and/or link.

2012! 2012! wow! yall ready for this???