Harvard Study Finds Pro-Israel Lobby Influences U.S. Foreign Policy, page 2

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 10:32 AM

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I also take twitchys position...

Truth is truth.

It is finding the truth for this topic that will be hard. (actually not so hard to find base facts, as FredT has done)

As another poster said... the "pro israel" lobbys have much control over the media, (and Harvard i suspect)

And Seekerof, my issue isn't with the Camera itself... but with the angle of the story...
I beleive quite frankly, that a very powerful organization can and has influenced stories in the media...
whether that be the New York Times, or even CNN...

I dont know if I can even take a BBC article at face value on this topic.
As i stated... I also researched these authors, and found nothing but esteem up until this article was published...

It is a rather profound statement that this story did not appear in major news outlets, as the authors predicted...

Also: although this thread is about the "pro israel" lobby, I dont like any lobby... except maybe the consumer union, or certain "selfless" lobbies that really do try to improve our country, by being that opposing step to the "dark side" of influence lobbying.

[edit on 23-3-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

Riwka

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 11:58 AM

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Meanwhile,

Harvard backed away from "Israel lobby" Professors

The Harvard Kennedy School of Government logo has disappeared

.

left side: old version....................................................................right side: actual version

Source

In a further sign that Harvard and the University of Chicago are distancing themselves from Professors Walt and Mearsheimer, the report also no longer includes the pro-forma disclaimer used for all other research reports on that Harvard website. In its place is a far stronger disclaimer, in much larger type. The original disclaimer read:

The views expressed in the KSG Faculty Research Working Paper Series are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of the John F. Kennedy School of Government or Harvard University. Copyright belongs to the author(s). Papers may be downloaded for personal use only.

The new, much more prominent disclaimer reads:

The two authors of this Working Paper are solely responsible for the views expressed in it.

As academic institutions, Harvard University and the University of Chicago do not take positions on the scholarship of individual faculty, and this article should not be interpreted or portrayed as reflecting the official position of either institution

As prominent Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said in an interview:

"The challenge is to find a single idea in the piece that does not already appear in hate websites. There is no scholarship here what so ever".

LazarusTheLong

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 12:35 PM

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Deny ignorance...

just because an idiot agrees with me, doesn't mean that i am an idiot
(not saying anyone said i was, but making the point about info, and where it is probably posted)

I personally dont want anyone making more of this than it is...
so lets keep it general shall we...
and to the facts...
No private/foreign country interest should be allowed to buy influence on policy. period
did they?
seems so!
regardless of how many articles say "these guys are crooked" unless they show better proof than they have, I dont beleive it...

FredT posted the amount of "influence" being bought, so posting a repeat of the withdrawel of support by harvard seems unneccessary
As the authors stated, they knew it wasn't a popular thing to say, but was neccessary to present an unbiased truth..

they both knew that what happened probably would happen,
but again
truth is truth, and seeing Harvard distance themselves seems much more like a PR and legal defense rather than a denial of the information itself...

Beachcoma

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 12:51 PM

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Originally posted by Riwka
As prominent Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said in an interview:

"The challenge is to find a single idea in the piece that does not already appear in hate websites. There is no scholarship here what so ever".

I think it's important to note that just because certain ideas in the study parallels some of the ideas that also appears on hate websites, it doesn't mean that the study is promoting hate.

So far to me, the tone of the paper appears to be one of concern for the safety of America, and perhaps even criticism of the pro-Israel lobby in influencing American policies. That being said, it is important to distinguish criticism from downright bashing or hate-mongering.

Just like Laz, I see this distancing done by Harvard and the University of Chicago as a PR maneuver.

Regenmacher

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 02:13 PM

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In general, if you want in-depth provocative news, it usually isn't going to be from the MSM, and a good reason to peruse ATS. So that leaves it up to the bloggers, forums and people like us to push the envelope and seek solutions before seeking blame.

CSMonitor could be considered mainstream media:
Study alleges US sets aside own security interest for Israel's

This Antiwar.com story is thoroughly hyperlinked with references.
A good read in regards to the anti-zionism view of things.

The Lobby -Antiwar.com
Why is American policy in the Middle East skewed in favor of Israel?

The Lobby's efforts to get us into war with Iraq are detailed, and the role played by the neocons within and outside the administration is examined with unusual candor. The central role played by neoconservatives is described, and the timeline of their triumph is explained. While they had some limited success in furthering their agenda of regime change in Iraq during the Clinton years, the authors describe 9/11 as the turning point. Key individuals are named: Dick Cheney and his staff, especially the now-indicted [.pdf] Scooter Libby, and former Undersecretary of State for Policy Douglas J. Feith, a co-author of the notorious "Clean Break" document. Without the Lobby, the authors conclude, the decision to go to war would have been far less likely.

It isn't just regime change in Iraq that flowed directly from the Lobby's efforts, however: the entire project to effect a "democratic" transformation of the Middle East via direct U.S. intervention owes its origins to the Lobby's relentless efforts. After Iraq, the efforts to target Syria with sanctions and effect regime change in Iran were ratcheted up in Washington, in spite of the Bush administration's ambivalence. The dominance of the Lobby in Washington means that we are fighting wars for Israel's sake, not our own. The Jewish state is protected, in spite of whatever difficulties the U.S. military encounters in actually carrying out their project in the region, while Americans "do most of the fighting, dying, rebuilding, and paying."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

This article claims there won't be much of a rebuttal, considering it would give the story legs and then it might actually walk into the MSM.

Scholars' Attack on Pro-Israel Lobby Met With Silence -Forward

Officials at Jewish organizations are furious over "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," a new paper by John Mearsheimer, a top international relations theorists based at the University of Chicago, and Stephen Walt, the academic dean of Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government. In their report — versions of which appear on the Kennedy School Web site and in the March 26 issue of the London Review of Books — the scholars depict "the Israel lobby" as a "loose coalition" of politicians, media outlets, research institutions, Jewish groups and Evangelical Christians that steers America's Middle East policy in directions beneficial to Israel, even if it requires harming American interests.

Despite their anger, Jewish organizations are avoiding a frontal debate with the two scholars, while at the same time seeking indirect ways to rebut and discredit the scholars' arguments. Officials with pro-Israel organizations say that given the limited public attention generated by the new study — as of Tuesday most major print outlets had ignored it — they prefer not to draw attention to the paper by taking issue with it head on. As of Wednesday morning, none of the largest Jewish organizations had issued a press release on the report.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Haaratz takes on a different angle as in Israel should learn to compromise.

A warning from America -Haaretz Editorial

The conclusion that Israel can draw from the anti-Israel feeling expressed in the article is that it will not be immune for eternity. America's unhesitating support for Israel and its willingness to restrain itself over all of Israel's mistakes can be interpreted as conflicting with America's essential interests and are liable to prove burdensome. The fact that Israelis view the United States' support for and tremendous assistance to Israel as natural causes excess complacence, and it fails to take into account currents in public opinion that run deep and are liable to completely change American policy.

Instead of strengthening the Jewish and Israeli lobby and causing it to influence American policymakers to support Israel unreservedly, the Israeli government must understand that the world will not wait forever for Israel to withdraw from the territories, and that the opinions expressed in the article could take root in American politics if Israel does not change the political reality quickly. The unilateral withdrawal from Gaza did improve Israel's standing in the world, especially in Europe, but that is not enough.

Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's plan to attempt to get widespread international support for the political program he will present, which is based on a significant withdrawal in the West Bank and the evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers, is a wise and necessary step. It is impossible to set a border with the Palestinians in a unilateral manner if it is not accepted at least by the United States and Europe. In Gaza, Israel withdrew to an accepted international border, but in the West Bank, the intention is to maintain sovereignty over settlement blocs located in occupied territory.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

The Macro View: Profits above People, War, Blame, Hypocrisy and Growing Discontent

On the surface, these types of stories have increased dissent and abet global polarization while offering no solutions. Increasing destructive animosity aids the designs and grand plans of the military industrial complex, and their recourse to most problems is to ignore the intangibles, instigate war, sell arms and breed discontent. At the current rate of dissension and economic malaise, the United States is headed for a collapse from within. The US populace still continues to blame outsiders or partisan opposition as it struggles with multiple phases of denial. The elected US leaders continue to sell us out to foreign interests, trans-nationals and mega-conglomerates while the masses practice unbridled consumerism and drive themselves deeper into debt. Lobbies are but a byproduct of the total rot in the "feed the greed" America crowd of mass consumption, and self reflection has become imponderable reality to the masses.

So ask yourselves:
Who keeps seeking blame, while remaining void of introspection?
Who elected these incorrigible, corrupt, and debased leaders?
Who continues to support the ideological divide of the nation?
Who is in a state of financial ignorance and absent of frugality?
Who has condoned that safety is better than liberty?
Who keeps thinking the government will fix itself?
Who isn't marching on DC and demanding changes?
Who keeps falling for the same old dogmas and rhetoric?
Who keeps blaming the jew, while remaining irresponsible?

Change happens on the one person who you can actually effect change, yourself...

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

denythestatusquo

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 02:22 PM

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Originally posted by Malichai
I read the full article and it seems the other posters here have not. The Israel Lobby discussed is far more than just AIPAC. Its everyone in the media, and the halls of power that drives the foreign policy in America. Each alone is does not give control, but taken together the power is overwhelming.

Scary when you see the titles of the people that support the lobby isn't it? Sometimes they even seem very close to you

The majority has to stand up before the following happens:

- economic and cultural ruin in the first world
- WWIII happens in the middle east and we are all in it up our butts!

Mod Edit: Please Don't Quote Entire Posts -- The Quote Nazi

[edit on 3/23/2006 by Majic]

Malichai

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 06:17 PM

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As prominent Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said in an interview:

"The challenge is to find a single idea in the piece that does not already appear in hate websites. There is no scholarship here what so ever"

If the best Deshowitz can do is say the info is also at supposed hate sites that means he has researched it, and found no Un-Truths. That was about the best endorsement he could give to a paper like this.

Malichai

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 08:59 PM

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This should be the top story in every news outlet today, but the silence is deafening. They even drug out David Duke as a Strawman. Not one single comment let alone an attack on the content itself.

Astronomer68

posted on Mar, 23 2006 @ 09:37 PM

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The pro-Israeli lobbies response to the study is subtle, but effective--No pickup or reprints in major print media, no discussion of the paper on TV or the radio. To the list of the most powerful lobbies you can also add that they are one of the smartest. For a politician to utter anything even remotely derogatory about Israel is inviting disaster and an early end to a career. The same can be said about films and TV shows and for that matter the print media and radio. The pro-Israeli lobby will deny they have anywhere near that level of influence, but a close examination of the historical facts will quickly disprove that contention. They are extremely influental and their influence is pervasive.

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Astronomer68]

YIAWETA

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 10:09 AM

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Here's the most painful part of this reality. Israel gets upwards of $3 billion annually from the U.S. with no conditions or constraints on how the money should be spent. So the American tax payer funds the pro -Israeli lobby in Washington who now dictates where Americans will go and die for their agenda. And this subject gets labeled 'touchy' here on ATS.

Beachcoma

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 10:30 AM

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It would appear so. The authors of the paper are unable to get their work published in any American-based scientific publications.

Professor Says American Publisher Turned Him Down

John Mearsheimer says that the pro-Israel lobby is so powerful that he and co-author Stephen Walt would never have been able to place their report in a American-based scientific publication.

"I do not believe that we could have gotten it published in the United States," Mearsheimer told the Forward. He said that the paper was originally commissioned in the fall of 2002 by one of America's leading magazines, "but the publishers told us that it was virtually impossible to get the piece published in the United States."

Most scholars, policymakers and journalists know that "the whole subject of the Israel lobby and American foreign policy is a third-rail issue," he said. "Publishers understand that if they publish a piece like ours it would cause them all sorts of problems."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

In other news, The Zionist Organization of America has rejected the paper as 'intellectually dishonest' and 'anti-semite'.

ZOA: Harvard Pseudo-Academic 'Working Paper' Attacking Israel Lobby Is Intellectually Dishonest And Anti-Semitic

"It is one thing to note that pro-Israel advocates have influence and work hard to influence policy; that's their job. It's another to talk of such people as "agents for a foreign government" who hold a "stranglehold" over Washington and other terms that look like they came straight out of the anti-Semitic tract, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Mearsheimer and Walt may disavow the Protocols, but their paper essentially makes the same anti-Semitic point – that Jews and their supporters are manipulating governments for sordid interests at the expense of the interests of their host country. This is a vicious smearing of loyal Americans working to foster American interests and who believe these are best served by strengthening the relationship with Israel and supporting Israel to secure its right to existence.

"Mearsheimer and Walt also make a big issue out of the fact that Jews like Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, Aaron Miller and Daniel Kurtzer oversaw US Middle East policy for many years, yet many supporters of Israel were deeply angered by their hostility to and pressure upon Israeli governments. But the authors of this screed do not let facts get in the way of their prejudices.

"It is significant that they quote one or two isolated statistics that suggest Americans want more pressure on Israel but ignore much polling data showing that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel, believe its Arab neighbors do not accept her existence and oppose a Palestinian state and handing Jerusalem over to the Palestinians. American public opinion is very inconvenient to them.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Hmm.. Considering that the media in America usually takes one side without reporting the other side, this isn't so surprising.

US media bias: Covering Israel & Palestine

On August 25, 2005 the headline on CNN.com read, “Israel: Five Militants Shot in Raid.” The article claims the militants were suspected of being involved with a suicide bombing; they were armed and exchanged fire with the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF), and five Palestinians were shot. The report also mentions the town Netanya, where the suicide bombing referenced in the article took place, was a frequent sitet for suicide bombings. No Palestinian quote, no witnesses giving an alternative perspective, and no mention that three of the victims shot were under the age of 18.

The Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, covered the same event including Palestinian quotes and some Palestinian claims. The paper reported that the IOF killed five Palestinians on August 25, three of whom Palestinian sources claim to be between the ages of 14 and 17 with no known links to militant organizations. Four of the victims died at the scene, while one of the young victims died later that night.

Varying Palestinian reporters cited witnesses claiming all five Palestinians were unarmed, including the two militants killed. This was the first fatal attack since the “disengagement” of the Gaza Strip.

The contrast in coverage between CNN and Haaretz is staggering. The CNN headline was written in absolutes: “Five militants shot in raid.” The CNN article continues by stating only the Israeli claim that five militants were killed, making the headline biased and misleading. The Haaretz headline read: “U.S. urges restraint after IDF raid that killed 5 Palestinians.” This headline refers to the people who were shot as Palestinians and not solely militants. The Haaretz article covers conflicting Israeli and Palestinian claims, which made it impossible to determine whether or not all five killed were militants or civilians.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

I have noticed this double standard as well. I'm not saying that one side or the other of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more or less to blame -- I think both sides have commited so many despicable acts to the other that neither side is 'morally superior'.

However I do notice that the media coverage that comes out of the US on that issue is rather lop-sided. Hmphh, the media coverage that comes out from my country on that issue is lop-sided as well, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. Thank God for the Internet.

Meanwhile, on the rest of the Internet, the reaction to the study has been a mixed bag of support or condemnation.

Related Internet Link:
Google Search of Related News Articles

[Edit: 'God' was missing

]

[edit on 24-3-2006 by Beachcoma]

LazarusTheLong

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 12:31 PM

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ZOA: Harvard Pseudo-Academic 'Working Paper' Attacking Israel Lobby Is Intellectually Dishonest And Anti-Semitic
their paper essentially makes the same anti-Semitic point – that Jews and their supporters are manipulating governments for sordid interests at the expense of the interests of their host country. This is a vicious smearing of loyal Americans working to foster American interests and who believe these are best served by strengthening the relationship with Israel and supporting Israel to secure its right to existence.

"It is significant that they quote one or two isolated statistics that suggest Americans want more pressure on Israel but ignore much polling data showing that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel, believe its Arab neighbors do not accept her existence and oppose a Palestinian state and handing Jerusalem over to the Palestinians. American public opinion is very inconvenient to them.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

I want to comment directly on this, the ONE statement being made in defense, since it is the only statement, I will dissect this bugger, and see if we can learn anything...

same source as above
their paper essentially makes the same anti-Semitic point – that Jews and their supporters are manipulating governments for sordid interests at the expense of the interests of their host country.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

again... if in idiot agrees with me, it doesn't mean what i said was wrong...
Specious logic... they can do better (or can they?)

same source as above
This is a vicious smearing of loyal Americans working to foster American interests and who believe these are best served by strengthening the relationship with Israel and supporting Israel to secure its right to existence.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

It doesn't smear them in the least... why would they let a little thing like having the amounts of money given by various "Pro Israel" lobbies reported on, "SMEAR" them...
they ought to be happy about the results of thier purchasing power... (now if they take it as an anti semitic attack, it could be seen as offensive, but it was presented as unbiased fact)

then you have all the other Americans that it didn't smear at all, because we aren't married to Israel, and just want straight Info...

same source as above
"It is significant that they quote one or two isolated statistics that suggest Americans want more pressure on Israel but ignore much polling data showing that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel, believe its Arab neighbors do not accept her existence and oppose a Palestinian state and handing Jerusalem over to the Palestinians.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

One or two statistics?
What polls did they source?
Ones that said that americans like to sell out our interests for Israel?
NO!
I can't seem to find any.

a better way of saying the same thing is this (but it takes away the fire of anti semitism or bias)
Americans can want pressure on some issues, AND amazingly enough can support Israel on other issues... DUH...

the point they missed debating, was:
that Americans may agree with Israel on many issues, but why dont we let AMERICAN opinion decide, rather than foreign Money given to politicians
If we would think the same way regardless, then well...
it looks like they waste an awful lot of money for nothin. (sarcastic)

ATSers are way to swauve for that distraction...

and finally on the last statement!

same source as above
American public opinion is very inconvenient to them.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Yes, American public opinion is very inconveinant to FIND, since most media are biased... or just scared regarding this topic?

[edit on 24-3-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

[edit on 24-3-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

Regenmacher

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 12:39 PM

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Let's not forget Israeli elections are on March 28th and the most effective psyops and propaganda is always released in a timely manner in order to the sway the fence sitters and solidfy party lines. AIPAC and the neo-conservatives support Netanyahu's Likud party over that of Sharon's Kadima party.

How do you think they will vote in light of the Harvard study and who is really wagging the dog?

•Israeli Elections: A Vote for Separation -Electronic Intifada
•Abbas seeks secret talks; Olmert says Abbas failed -ABC
•Kadima worried over slipping support -UPI
•Pollsters assess possible failure to predict election results -Haaretz

Benjamin Netanyahu-------or------Ehud Olmert

LazarusTheLong

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 12:44 PM

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Yes, good point...

In the pursuit of vigilance...
All "pro Israel" support or israeli citizens, dont agree or get along neccessarily...
(which kind of flys in the face of the "anti semitic, anti zionist" angle)

It is about influnce of lobbys, and what (and if) it buys regarding our policy.

at this point, the evidence (in raw data form) is there... and makes a very significant case so far (if i could only find time to read ALL of it)

Astronomer68

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 01:15 PM

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Generally speaking, I don't have much of a problem with the activities of the Pro-Israeli lobby. They are effective at their job and generally do not diverge very much from what American opinion would be without them. The one issue where I find outright bias is that of the settlements. The rapid and continuing expansion of Israeli settlements on land still in contention is, in my opinion, wrong and shows a lot of greed on the part of the Israelis.

I fully realize what an explosive issue this is in Israel and how much Israel needs more room, but it causes much animosity throughout the world and costs the U.S. dearly in the court of world opinion.

marg6043

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 01:37 PM

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We can make all kind of arguments about who lobby for whom and who get their policies approve or not.

The biggest problem in America politics is the way that our Elected congress is selling themselves to the highest bidder when it comes to lobbyist.

BTW the biggest lobbyist spending money in Washington is pharmaceuticals.

Anyway, what can we the people do about all these issues that affect our nation and we the people?

Nothing we can do.

Politicians, money and power go hand in hand.

We elected them and they sell for a good amount of money the power that we the people give them.

So Israel has lobbyist and so every other foreign country out there that can pay to get a congressman in his side because is all about money.

Our congress when in section is not open for the business of the nation but is open for business for anybody that can name the price.

Is not new but has become very obvious since the few last elections.

Should we fight them? No, we should not.

But perhaps we the people will have to start paying money to get our needs prioritized by the people that we elected to begin with.

Funny, right.

Malichai

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 01:42 PM

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So Israel has lobbyist and so every other foreign country out there that can pay to get a congressman in his side because is all about money.

The lobby is far more than just AIPAC, and its influence is far more than just he money they give. Combined with the media control the Israel lobby is more powerful than any other in the world today.

How many lobbies representing other nations control TV, Radio, and newspapers in America?

Where is one single example of any lobby standing against the Israel lobby?

Where is one single lobby for a foreign nation that has anywhere near their influence?

There may be other lobbies, but none have the level of power over Foreign Policy. Comparing to Big Pharma is apples to Oranges. They have no interest in foreign policy, and they do not cross the Israel lobby.

Astronomer68

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 01:44 PM

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That is a whole different issue marg6043. I tend to agree with you about it and have many times stated my opinion concerning career politicians.

LazarusTheLong

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 01:46 PM

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Originally posted by marg6043

The biggest problem in America politics is the way that our Elected congress is selling themselves to the highest bidder when it comes to lobbyist.

what can we the people do about all these issues that affect our nation and we the people?

Should we fight them? No, we should not.
Funny, right.

Yes, Marg... yes we should fight them...
and there are several ways... letters to the actual congressmen will go far... there are actually some congressmen that want tighter controls over money and favors donated to political interests/groups/people...

We as a nation, push for reform against ANY influence peddling...
I think the authors knew that if there was a vulnerable time to hit with these reforms, it is now, when there is such evidence, and such animosity towards corrupt politicians...

Unite, and send a clear message...
to all congressmen/senators:
reform the process of influence peddling, or be voted out...
but we have to do something...
I will try to find the link for all congressmens/senators e-mail addresses, so that we can make our voice heard...

the tide is turning...

[edit on 24-3-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

marg6043

posted on Mar, 24 2006 @ 02:07 PM

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Malicahi, don’t be surprise as the power of the Israelis in our foreign policies it has been like that for quite some time.

Also the Saud Family have plenty of investments in the US and I remember China not long time ago lobbying also I can not remember right now but I do know that they lost their bid.

Astronomer68 yes our politicians are career politicians to the point that many will become lobbyist themselves after they retired.

But taken in consideration the amount of money that it takes in our nation to finance a political campaign they have to lean to private interests or they would not be able to make it.

Because is not control about how much money they can use.

LazarusTheLong the only reason you see right now a lot of fuss and ado in congress is because is political, congress elections are near and now is the best time to bring the issue and exposed rival candidates between politicians.

Yes many bills has been put on the table about the way politicians received donations from private interest and they become and issue all the time at this time during elections, but at the end is actually not in any body in congress best interest to pass them.