It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Another case of politics, lobbying prevailing over the better Rafale.
Clearly the Rafale was the better option .... but alas, the Saudis did a 'Singapore' and handed the victory to the white elephant.
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
the Saudis did a 'Singapore' and handed the victory to the white elephant.
Misconception 1 : Typhoon has better radar range than Rafale:
1. technology-wise Captor is one full generation behind RBE-2..
2. Just like Captor, RBE-2 too comes from a fine and proven radar, namely RDY. Dassault has grown out of slotted array pants years ago
3. Mechanical array of the Captor offers only a very limited simultaneous A-G and A-A.
4. Absolute range figures are less important in AWACS environment where both fighter will be active. Both contenders would be informed about incoming opponents much sooner than their radar would actually pick up the enemies, anyway..
5. Rafale has smaller frontal aspect RCS. That efficiently eliminates Captor's range advantage.
Misconception 2: Typhoon has greater thrust than Rafale
6. Typhoon is way heavier.. Its T/W ratio is so ridiculously greater than one of Rafale that calling that a decisive advantage is a real herecy..
7. Both aircraft are able to supercruise. No real difference here..
8. Despite greater weight I don't see greater figures in terms of max. payload with Typhoon. Carrying draggy dead weight around does not contribute to its range, as well..
Misconception 3: Typhoon has better missiles
9. Meteor is with Rafale, too..Therefore constitutes no advantage for Typhoon at all..
10. Typhoon lacks medium range IR-guided missile for silent interceptions..remember that the Rafale has those Mica's..
Misconception 4: Austria bought the Eurofighter, so its better than the Rafale
11. The Rafale was never even considered for the contract. EADS used the bait of allowing Austria to obtain a greater share of work in their projects to sell them the Eurofighter.
In addition, i remember correctly, the Eurofighter was rejected before the Rafale in the Singapore buy.
Misconception 4: The Eurofighter's subsidary sensors & electronics are better than the Rafale's
Well, then check out what the Rafale's got :
The Rafale carries, for the first time in aviation history, an integrated electronic survival system named SPECTRA which features a software-based virtual stealth technology.
The Spectra [Système de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale] self-protection suite has been integrated by Thales, but it consists of elements built by various companies. The Spectra consists of a radar-warning receiver (RWR), missile-launch-warning system (MLWS), laser-warning receivers (LWS), a management computer, four chaff/flare dispensers, and a built-in jammer, all integrated into a single automatic system. The RWR and active jamming system were developed by Dassault Electronique (presently Thales) and are integrated as the Détection et Brouillage Electromagnétique (DBEM) system. According to an unofficial source, in the F1 standard, the DBEM can detect transmitters over the frequency range of 2-18 GHz, but this was increased to 2-40 GHz on the F2 standard. The system has a very high accuracy of up to one degree in azimuth. The DBEM automatically detects, classifies, and identifies emitters and inputs information about them into the computer.
The Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. The antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection. It also uses other low-probability-of-detection techniques, so the Rafale's electronic-countermeasures (ECM) capability is also compatible with its stealth requirements. The MLWS was developed by Matra (presently MBDA) and is called the Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles (DDM; missile-launch-detection system). It works in two infrared (IR) bands to increase detection reliability. Its primary detector is mounted on top of the Rafale's tail. The LWS was developed by Thales and is called the Détection et Alerte Laser (DAL). The whole Spectra suite is integrated with three dedicated computers, developed by Thales and MBDA and called the Gestion de l'Interface et Compatibilité (GIC).
Damocles Targeting Pod
The Damocles pod, in its baseline configuration, has a third-generation thermal-imagery camera, working in the waveband of 3-5 µm, and a navigational forward-looking IR (FLIR) sensor mounted in the pylon. The navigational FLIR sensor has a 24x18-degrees field of view. The main sensor is used for targeting purposes, with selectable fields of view: wide (4x3º), intermediate, and narrow (1x0.75º). It is fully stabilized, enabling an observation range of up to 40-50 km. Along with the camera, the Damocles pod is also equipped with two laser sets working in the 1.5- and 1.06-µm wavebands, used for range finding, target designation, and laser spot tracking. The lasers' ranges enables them to be used from outside the firing envelope of many air-defense systems. The Damocles camera and lasers can be cued to the target by other aircraft systems, including indirectly by the RBE2 radar. The pod has also an automatic track mode. The laser-designation system of the Damocles pod is compatible with Paveway II and III, Alenia/MBDA PGM-500 and PGM-2000 HAKIM, and Elbit Lizard guided bombs.
Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF)
Thales also developed a very advanced built-in electro-optical (EO) targeting system for the Rafale, called Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF; Front Sector Optronic). The system is mounted in front of the cockpit and consists of two optical modules. The right-side module has a long-wave (8-12 µm) infrared camera used for target search and track. The range of the camera is believed to be up to 90 km in ideal conditions. The left-side module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder for use against air targets.
The OSF system does not replace the Damocles pod. Indeed, the OSF system is primarily an air-to-air search, track, identification, and localization sensor, with a limited air-to-ground localization and identification function. The OSF system is to be introduced from the F2 standard onward. In F2.1, it will be air-to-air capable, and in F2.2 it will also gain an air-to-ground capability. From the F3 standard, the OSF system is also to be also adapted for anti-ship missions. A future enhancement has been proposed to the French Air Force and French Navy with a night target-identification function based on a mid-wave IR sensor that would replace the CCD TV camera
Recce NG
The Thales Recce NG is intended to be not just a reconnaissance pod. It will be a complete reconnaissance system. The pod is the airborne element of the system. The ground elements consist of a mission-planning system and a station for receiving, processing, and disseminating intelligence data in real time.
The Recce NG system offers the capability to perform both high- and medium-altitude strategic reconnaissance and low-altitude tactical reconnaissance during the same mission. The system has three digital optronic sensors: two bi-spectral sensors for long-range reconnaissance (IR and visible) and a high-speed tactical IR line scanner for low-altitude reconnaissance. The bi-spectral sensors offer several fields of view – narrow field for medium-range reconnaissance and very narrow field for long-range, stand-off reconnaissance. The optics of the visible and IR cameras are mounted on a flexible bearing, enabling the systems to be directed vertically and at oblique angles in any direction from horizon to horizon, and with significant agility in azimuth.
_______
Misconception 5: The Rafale does not have any stealth features, while the Eurofighter does.
Infact, Stealth was given a greater priority for the Rafale than the Eurofighter.
The requirement for stealth led to redesigning the fuselage, which produced Rafale's characteristic shape.
Thales Group and Dassault Aviation have mentioned stealthy jamming modes for the SPECTRA system, to reduce the aircrafts apparent radar signature. It is not known exactly how these work or even if the capability is fully operational, but it may employ 'active cancellation' technology, such as has been tested by Thales and MBDA. Active cancellation is supposed to work by sampling and analysing incoming radar and feeding it back to the hostile emmiter slightly out of phase thus cancelling out the returning radar echo.
Future upgrades of the system will include the ability to datalink several Rafales together, sharing SPECTRA data among various units of a fighter group.
The radar-absorbent materials initially used caused the dark color of the Rafale C prototype (shown here), but later special electromagnetic-transparent paints were developed so the aircraft could receive any color scheme. (also shown below)
Originally posted by Seekerof
But hey, if the Rafale is "clearly" the better aircraft option, then perhaps you can convince Indian government to buy some, being that the Rafale will "clearly" be a better aircraft than those Su-30MKIs?
Originally posted by longbow
Rafale is considered slightly worse than Typhoon. For example it cannot supercruise.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Now shall i post propoganda BS from Rafale fan sites as well ?
Originally posted by Seekerof
Correct me if I am wrong here, stealthspy, but hell, I thought that that was what you had been doing all along?
Originally posted by planeman
I feel a bit sorry for France. The Rafale is an excellent platform and deserves to do well for export
But good news for UK and BAE Systems.
Saudi Arabia has signed an expanded military agreement with the UK government under which the kingdom intends to acquire at least 24 Eurofighter Typhoons to replace its current air force fleet of Panavia Tornado air defence variant (ADV) fighters.
Contained within a so-called “understanding document”, the multi-billion pound Typhoon buy would form the cornerstone of a third phase to the bilateral Al Yamamah arms agreement, which has already covered the delivery and support of 120 Tornado ADV and interdictor strike (IDS) aircraft, BAE Systems Hawk and Pilatus PC-9 trainers and other equipment.
The MoD says this will cover the delivery of 24 aircraft to be drawn from the UK Royal Air Force’s production run of 89 Tranche 2 Eurofighters..
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Originally posted by longbow
Rafale is considered slightly worse than Typhoon. For example it cannot supercruise.
Infact the Rafale-M (which is heavier than the other Rafale variants by 650kg) demonstrated supercruise with 4 A2A missiles installed on it in addition to a central 1250 L fuel tank.
The present M-88-2 engine can make the Rafale supercruise at 1.2M, while the M-88-3 (20% more thrust than the M-88-2) that will get into the Rafale shortly is claimed to be able to supercruise the Rafale at 1.4 M. An M-88-4 with Thrust Vectoring is also said to be in development.
Misconception 2: Typhoon has greater thrust than Rafale
6. Typhoon is way heavier.. Its T/W ratio is so ridiculously greater than one of Rafale that calling that a decisive advantage is a real herecy..
this months Air International
The RAF is eagerly awaiting delivery of its first production Typhoon to be fitted with the newly uprated version of the EJ 200 engine in 2006 which will greatly enhance even further the Typhoons already blistering performance
Originally posted by Lonestar24
Saudi-Arabia however only needs aircraft that can fulfill the interceptor (against both air and ground targets) or limited (counter-)attack role. With its central Middle East position, almost all possible areas of engagement lie within a 1500km circle of Riyadh or S-As borders (where most of the Airbases are located), and both the Rafale and the Typhoon can manage that combat radius with internal fuel and a reasonable combat load alone. That being said, IF there ever will be combat with Saudi-Arabian Airforce in it (again, in the foreseeable future) the distances will most likely be less than that 1500km.