Bodies of Killed Service Members Return as Freight

I understand the need for a crate. However, it appears nothing beyond that was done in the case of this story... Otherwise, what exactly did Boxer do for this family?

At a minimum, colors could have been draped with a single escort at the time of unloading... No?

[edit on 10-12-2005 by loam]

loam

As I stated earlier the procedure has been to not drape the flag over the container because it might make the other passengers uncomfortable. This was at the airline's request not the military's. When the container was placed in the hearse the flag was draped over it and the escort rode in the hearse. I don't see why an issue is being made of this now except for the media wanting to do anything that they can to cause a controversy.

Wait a minute! That is NOT what that story says... Are you saying these parents (former military) are making this up??? And where did you get this bit about it being an airline policy?

Making what up, loam? Do you even know what they are saying? They are saying that it is wrong that the coffins are placed in a shipping crate and put in the cargo hold of a commercial jet.

PERIOD.

They aren't saying anything else. That's it. That's the big beef they have. They haven't said these soldiers don't get an honor reception at Dover. They haven't said the coffins are mishandled or disrespected once they get through processing off the tarmak. Their beef is the logistics and the fact that a full farking military color guard isn't holding up every commercial jet with a coffin on it. Which is a ludicrous idea in and of itself. Think about it - a color guard holding up air traffic at commercial airports while cargo handlers try to do their jobs. The respect comes on the military side and the family side - not in the freaking logistics.

I don't see anything more in this than two overly vocal bereaved parents.

Little do they know the catastrophe happened when their child was killed in a war initiated on lies. They really need to prioritize their anger if you ask me.



[edit on 12-10-2005 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
Little do they know the catastrophe happened when their child was killed in a war initiated on lies.

Well on this at least we can agree.

I am still confused then what is was that Senator Boxer did that apparently satisfied these parents... and why the DoD representative had no better response than she did not know why that was happening...

EDIT: Rereading the article it says:

John and Stacey Holley, who were both in the Army, made some calls, and with the help of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.

So, what I suggested should have happened appeared to have happened after all...

And, BTW, Val, what's the math on on the number of commercial flights since the Iraq war and the number of casualties? Even if there were a "full farking military color guard" each time, I would hardly call that a significant disruption...


[edit on 10-12-2005 by loam]

Originally posted by Netchicken
Does this mean the entire united States military is so hard pressed are unable to reserve one military aircraft to make a weekly trip back to the states?

Not the case at all, Netty.
I would have to agree with Grady and Valhall here.
This is a practice that was done during operations in Kosovo and 1st Gulf War. It is a practice that continues.




seekerof

I have those stats now...

From Jan-Aug 2005 there were 6,832,172 domestic flights in the US. ( Source. ) Annualized, that would translate into 10,248,258 domestic flights in the US per year, or 854,021 flights per month.

To date there have been 2,135 US casualties in this war...( Source. )

The first casualties happened in March of 2003. We have been in this war for 34 months. Assuming roughly an even distribution (which BTW is pretty close), that would mean essentially 63 deaths per month.

Given that there are 854,021 domestic flights per month, how impactful do you really think those 63 "disrupted" flights would be...even with a parade and a 21 gun salute...????



[edit on 10-12-2005 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
....even with a parade and a 21 gun salute...?

They are given such respects, as quoted above, at their funeral/burial locations. Furthermore, they are not given 21 gun salutes. That is reserved for:

Today the national salute of 21 guns is fired in honor of a national flag, the sovereign or chief of state of a foreign nation, a member of a reigning royal family, and the President, ex-President and President-elect of the United States. It is also fired at noon of the day of the funeral of a President, ex-President, or President-elect.

Gun salutes are also rendered to other military and civilian leaders of this and other nations. The number of guns is based on their protocol rank. These salutes are always in odd numbers.

Origin of the 21-Gun Salute




seekerof

[edit on 11-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Seekerof

...nor are they given parades...I was being facetious.

I think my point was clear.

[edit on 11-12-2005 by loam]

loam asks...

Given that there are 854,021 domestic flights per month, how impactful do you really think those 63 "disrupted" flights would be...even with a parade and a 21 gun salute...????

Probably fairly impactful. That plane isn't the only one on the tarmac. And the tarmac of a commercial airport isn't the appropriate place for this activity. The appropriate place is at a military airstrip (which no one has even intimated these soldiers' coffins are not given all due respect when they arrive and are off-loaded at Dover), and when their funeral takes place.

This is so much a non-issue. And the statement you quoted above from the article almost screams that fact. The article doesn't even say that ANYTHING changed after Boxer got involved. It doesn't say that anything happened differently than it would have. It's a non-story written for drama. That's the way I see it, anyway.

[edit on 12-11-2005 by Valhall]

:shk:

Facetious...Val...I was being facetious... Neither I, nor anyone else is demanding a parade and a 21 gun salute...

There is nothing inappropriate with colors and a single escort in a commercial airport. I'm astonished you think that wrong.

Moreover, I do not believe it is a non-issue. As I quoted above, the article says that their son was "greeted with honor and respect." While the particulars of how that was done are not indicated...something beyond what was originally intended was obviously done.

The real drama is the resistance found in this thread against a simple expectation that our war dead should be honored in a manner more respectful than mere chattel in a distribution channel. And that's the way I see it, anyway...

[edit on 11-12-2005 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
The real drama is the resistance found in this thread against a simple expectation that our war dead should be honored in a manner more respectful than mere chattel in a distribution channel.

Being that what 'should be' and 'what is' are two different things, just what exactly should the military being doing better in respects to this matter?
The crating is for protection of the caskets. Is it because they are carried on a commercial aircraft or in a cargo hold? Is it because where ever these honored soldiers are unloaded, there should be a color guard awaiting to give proper honor and respect? I am not seeing the issue here. Each of these fallen soldiers are indeed honored, respected, and remembered, when they are finally buried. Just what exactly should the military be doing different here, loam?





seekerof

[edit on 11-12-2005 by Seekerof]

What precicely is the confusion?

I have now repeatedly stated in this thread a flag being placed over the crate upon arrival...and have it met by a single escort (read as one person) until it is delivered to its final destination.

Where is the problem in that?

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. HR’s or Human Remains have always gone on airliners as freight, and always will. What, do you expect that the remains are going to ride in first class? The freight house is equipped to handle HR’s in both caskets and body bags; they are equipped to handle the hearses that drop off the bodies and have the proper packaging components to secure the body for transport.

I have personally been there when Military HR’s have had to travel home. They require a supervisor to ride from the freight house with them, and back when I did it, a military escort person to ensure how they where handled. They are far better handled then any non-military person that is moved before burial (usually getting a casket as apposed to a body bag, since freight is charged by weight and the US gov is footing the bill), and of course all HR’s are treated far superior to anything else that goes underneath in the cargo holds...

The reason that there is no flag put on the coffin is that it would be torn up in the web netting used to hold the coffin in place in the cargo bin, if it did not get caught and damaged on the belt loader. They place the coffin inside a cardboard box to keep the restraints and other items from rubbing against the metal and scuffing it. If the flag were between those restraints and the metal, it would have a hole torn in it. The ramp crew does not have time to deal with flags and ceremony they have a flight schedule to keep while ensuring everything is done safely and correctly.

Another reason that they have to be packaged in cardboard is because it MUST be known which way the coffin is facing inside the aircraft to ensure that the body reaches its destination in the same condition it left in. They mark that at the freight house on the cardboard before it comes out to the ramp. If it wasn’t done this way, then the ramp crew would have to open the casket on the ramp to check which end was which.

One more side note as to the cardboard, they use a standard box with marking on it so that it is easily and quickly identifiable to the ramp crew, who are often working under serious time pressure, to make sure that they know what the item is at a glance. That is why everything important on the fight line is marked in bright colors, ribbons, with bold text, etc.

I also want to mention that over 50% of the guys that work in most airports are ex-military, if there was anything to complain about don’t you think that you would hear it from them first?



[edit on 12/11/2005 by defcon5]

Defcon, your post... Was... Excellent. Wow.

Man, thumbs up . I never knew the half of it.

Zip

I first received this through a communications platform known as the AllHands.

It is maintained by a business acquaintence who has known LtCol. Strobl personally for many years.

During a recent visit his personal account of "taking Chance" brought tears to the eyes of all who were present, which included Chance's parents.

PFC Chance Phelps, 19, died April 9 from hostile fire in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. He was buried in Dubois, Wyoming on April 17. The below story was written by LtCol. Mike Strobl, assigned to Manpower Management Officer Assignments at Quantico, who volunteered to be the escort officer for PFC Phelps during his journey home. LtCol Strobl's mission as escort officer was to ensure PFC Phelps arrived home with dignity and honor and in a professional and timely manner.

Taking Chance

It's quite a long read but, in my opinion, it demonstrates the honor, integrity and care taken while handling the remains of our fallen soldiers.

Semper Fi,
LtCol. Strobl


[edit on 12/11/2005 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by defcon5
This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. HR’s or Human Remains have always gone on airliners as freight, and always will. What, do you expect that the remains are going to ride in first class?

What is ridiculous is that you imply those parents or I make that argument. Neither is true. Did you not read thoroughly? I think not.

Given what 12m8keall2c posted, I assume the problem in this case was that none of that was done for this soldier. Moreover, the implication is that none of that is now being done for other soldiers. Again, I draw your attention to the following quote:

John and Stacey Holley, who were both in the Army, made some calls, and with the help of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.

Clearly, that only happened because these parents (prior military) made a stink for what they knew the protocol should have been. It's not like they were civilian parents who ignorantly demanded the military do something that is otherwise never done.

What I also find ridiculous is that some are so concerned for their support of this war, that it has blinded them from even the most legitimate (however minor) of criticisms of this government. In my view, that is pathetic.

I continue to be astonished by the contorted arguments found in this thread against a simple and achievable demonstration of respect for our fallen soldiers.

well you gotta do something when you lie about how many soldiers are dying in iraq...imagine if you will...the pent releasing the number of dead do to accidents and training in iraq???


“It’s difficult to estimate what the total number is,” says John Pike, director of a research group called GlobalSecurity.org which publishes an informed estimate that goes well beyond what the Pentagon has released.

“You have to say that the total number of casualties due to wounds, injury, disease would have to be somewhere in the ballpark of over 20, maybe 30,000,” says Pike.

His calculation, striking as it is, is based on the military’s own definition of casualty – anyone “lost to the organization,” in this case, for medical reasons. And Pike believes it’s no accident that the military reports a number far lower than his estimate.
link

just thought of this....if the casualty figures are what they say they are...aren't they saying that they are soooo sort of planes and space, that they have to just put the few bodies anywhere they can find a spot?????

Originally posted by loam

Given what 12m8keall2c posted, I assume the problem in this case was that none of that was done for this soldier. Moreover, the implication is that none of that is now being done for other soldiers. Again, I draw your attention to the following quote:

I don’t see that written in the article, I see them being upset over him being sent home marked as freight. It’s a matter of semantics and that he was not brought all the way to his home town by military transport in a flag draped coffin.

Well I got a news flash for you…
The one that I had to escort as a ramp supervisor was back in the early 90’s, there was no war going on at the time and it was still done this way. So to say that it was not done according to military protocol is bunk, since it was obviously done this way 15 years ago in a time of peace. Do you think that now with even more casualties coming home that they are going to start using military assets to bring home even more men spread all over the country, when they would not do it for one back when they had the extra assets just sitting around to do it and fewer men needing it.

They obviously bring them with full honors to a collection point, then from there they travel under the direction of the funeral home that is going to deal with the family. Hence them traveling just like a normal HR, but with extra special treatment. Once they get home then they can have whatever ceremony the family wishes at the appropriate location of the funeral.

Originally posted by loam
I continue to be astonished by the contorted arguments found in this thread against a simple and achievable demonstration of respect for our fallen soldiers.

It’s not disrespect, rather the civilian aviation ramp is not the place for pomp and honor guards, you do that at the base, funeral home, church, or at the cemetery. The airport is about getting them quickly, safely, and in a private dignified manor to the location where the honor guard can do its thing. There is just not the room, nor is it the safest place to have people wandering around. If you notice in 12m8keall2c’s post, the escort was under escort by the freight house personnel every time he was allowed to go out to watch the loading.

The Coffin has to be loaded by belt loader because they are full sized caskets (only giving an inch or two clearance in the doorway), they are very heavy and even on a narrow body aircraft you have to lift it too high to do safely considering how narrow the door is and shallow the bin. It takes some maneuvering to get one of those caskets through the door and into the plane, so there is no having an honor guard doing that part either. Far better to do it the way it’s done now, even if it looks slightly bad, then have them slip and drop the casket trying to load it in. You start adding things hanging loosely off of it like a flag and you now have something that is going to snag on the doorway or belt and potentially cause it to fall.

Originally posted by loam

What I also find ridiculous is that some are so concerned for their support of this war, that it has blinded them from even the most legitimate (however minor) of criticisms of this government. In my view, that is pathetic.

I really don’t feel one way or the other about the war, and it was never an issue to what I said on this thread. I was simply stating facts from first hand experience.

Edit to add:

Originally posted by loam
Given that there are 854,021 domestic flights per month, how impactful do you really think those 63 "disrupted" flights would be...even with a parade and a 21 gun salute...????

Aircraft come into airports in banks so that the freight, passengers and mail can make its connecting flights. If you hold up a plane it casues a huge ripple effect and is VERY expensive. Being a ex-ramp supervisor I can tell you this from personal experience. Back in the early 90’s the charge to the company I worked for if we were charged with a delay was $5K per minute for every minute over 5 minutes late. That was just our fine; it does not reflect the cost to the airline if everyone and all the freight and mail on a flight blew their connecting flights. Now that plane is late if it does not leave the next location on time, they blow all those ones as well, and so, and so on...

I shudder to think what the charge would be 15 years later.



[edit on 12/11/2005 by defcon5]

After having read the linked article and viewed the supportive video TWICE ...

by loam:
Given what 12m8keall2c posted, I assume the problem in this case was that none of that was done for this soldier. Moreover, the implication is that none of that is now being done for other soldiers. Again, I draw your attention to the following quote:

quote:
John and Stacey Holley, who were both in the Army, made some calls, and with the help of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.


Clearly, that only happened because these parents (prior military) made a stink for what they knew the protocol should have been. It's not like they were civilian parents who ignorantly demanded the military do something that is otherwise never done.

The reason for my original post was to clarify the protocol for ALL fallen soldiers/heroes.

They are received at Dover in flagged-draped coffins. From there ALL are assigned a personal [military] escort to their destination/hometown. As for the use of commercial airlines ... logistics apply here, with no suggestive argument supported as to respect being shown/demonstrated for the individual remains (NO ... they are not treated as just baggage!).

My prior post regarding "Taking Chance" is entirely demonstrative of the respect given to ALL military escorts provided for those who have sacrificed their lives defending the American way.

While I feel for their loss, and wish to extend my condolences to the Holley family in a truly heartfelt manner, their son was afforded no less than any other individual who gave their life for this country and the freedoms we [should] appreciate today.

food for thought ...

Obviously, they had already been informed of his passing and were awaiting his [remains] arrival at the airport. Not awaiting the arrival of an actual passenger, they would be more focused on the removal of their son's container/coffin from the aircraft's hold.

The body [for lack of a better term] IS afforded a miltary escort, but the full military burial is for the gravesite ceremony, and not afforded for the journey throughtout.

Just my $.02

Peace2All