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Originally posted by newtimedo
im getting freaked out because i cant find negative info on amorc anywhere-
Originally posted by thexsword
I'm with Masonic Light on this one. I'd imagine they're rather fluffy, as they seem to be more of a religion than anything.
But hey, you could always join the O.T.O., atleast they straight up admit their involvment in occult teachings.
Originally posted by thexsword
Interesting, kind of creepy in sense, even though there are thousands of occult like groups such.
Masonic Light, I know Masonry has many esoteric teachings in their rituals, it seems. Are you like a New Age Spiritualist or something?
Nothing against any of your practices, just curious.
Originally posted by newtimedo
im getting freaked out because i cant find negative info on amorc anywhere- why are all past members too scared to talk?
i need to know wtf ive gotten involved with
Gnostic Glossary
"The order of the Logos, the true Rosicross, does not have a visible or tangible organization in the physical world, it does not have a physical temple; this only exists in the superior worlds. The brethren of the Rosicrucian Order who have physical bodies here in this tridimensional world are all of them Resurrected Masters. They are Resurrected Masters who already incarnated the Christ. Those from distinct schools and orders in this physical world who denominate themselves Rosicrucian are false. The true Rosicrucian Order that the Logos has established upon the face of the Earth does not have any visible organization, it does not dictate courses by correspondence, nor does it collect fees, nor does it have juridical personality, nor does it have internal or external statutes. Their members are not even acquainted with each other in this physical world. They might be acquainted with each other in the superior worlds, yet in this physical world they very seldom, very seldom encounter each other." - The Kabbalah of the Mayan Mysteries
A lodge in the internal worlds whose members are all Resurrected Masters.
The groups in the physical world who call themselves Rosicrucian have absolutely no affiliation with the True Order. In particular, Samael Aun Weor indicates repeatedly in many books that the school of A.M.O.R.C. (based in California) has nothing to do with the true Order. See The Revolution of Beelzebub for more information.
Originally posted by Masonic Light
No, I don't consider myself either a New Ager nor a spiritualist.
More like a Kabalist and Neo-Platonist with Buddhist and Taoist leanings.
Originally posted by newtimedo
im getting freaked out because i cant find negative info on amorc anywhere- why are all past members too scared to talk?
His claims were grotesquely absurd. For instance, he said that I don’t know how many knights of England and France – the most improbable people – were Rosicrucians. He said the Order was founded by one of the early Egyptian kings and professed to have documentary evidence of an unbroken hierarchy of initiates since then. He called the Order Rosae Crucis and translated it Rosy Cross. He said that in Toulouse the Order possessed a vast temple with fabulous magnificent appointments, an assertion disprovable merely by consulting Baedeker. He said that Rockefeller had given him nine hundred thousand dollars and at the same time sent round the hat with an eloquent plea for the smallest contributions. He professed to be a learned Egyptologist and classical scholar on terms of intimacy with the most exalted personages. Yet, as in the case of Peter, his speech betrayed him. He was a good chap at heart, a genuine lover of truth, by no means altogether ignorant of Magick, and a great fool to put up all this bluff instead of relying on his really good qualities.
Source: The Confessions of Aleister Crowley
...had been entangled in the toils of one of the charlatans who worked the Rosicrucian racket, merrily disdainful of criticism based on his elementary blunders in latin and his total ignorance of the Order which he claimed to rule.
Source: The Confessions of Aleister Crowley
Spencer Lewis ... had been knocking about for years trying to run a fake Rosicrucian order. He cast about everywhere for authority and when I first met him in New York in 1918 E.V., he was showing a charter supposed to be from the French Rosicrucians in Toulouse. He had devoted so much time to the conquest of the innermost secrets of Nature that he had not been able to spend any to learn French. Now even in New York there are a few people who know French and this ridiculous forgery made him a general laughing stock so that he withdrew it.
Source: Letter from Aleister Crowley to Arnoldo Krumm-Heller dated 28th December, 1936, in the possession of Peter König
Originally posted by Tamahu
(There has been some debate here at ATS as to whether or not the O.T.O. originally taught White Tantra; which, according to my research, the O.T.O. did teach White Tantra: In it's beginnings.)
Originally posted by Cug
You can't find negative info? Me thinks you need to practice your google skills.
He said that Rockefeller had given him nine hundred thousand dollars and at the same time sent round the hat with an eloquent plea for the smallest contributions.
Source: The Confessions of Aleister Crowley
...had been entangled in the toils of one of the charlatans who worked the Rosicrucian racket, merrily disdainful of criticism based on his elementary blunders in latin and his total ignorance of the Order which he claimed to rule.
Source: The Confessions of Aleister Crowley
Same teachings.. Have you read the book I mentioned back then on Paschal Beverly Randolph? He was the source of the teachings (via the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light and the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor) that you would consider "black."
Gnostic Movements
At first glance, you cannot see what is happening in the depths of the ocean by the shape of the wave. In the same way, all the rifts and battles of the superficial level merely reflect tremendous battles being waged in the internal worlds, in combination with the ascending or descending paths of the combatants, and the initiatic requirements of each.
Yet, when one has some experience in these matters, one realizes that this is the way it has always been, and it is the way it will always be, so long as the ego remains with humanity. The fact is that movements and schools are vehicles which change drivers from time to time, and those drivers are on the one hand the Monads who are using their human souls to accomplish missions, and on the other hand the demons who are trying to advance their own causes.
What is most interesting is that in the space of a breath a movement can shift from being guided by an Initiate on the ascending scale, to being guided by a demonic intelligence, and none of the members of that group will have a clue about it.
Yet they go on arguing about who is the best, who has the most knowledge, etc.
This happened even with the chief of a worldwide religious order, whose lineage contained back-to-back opposites: at one moment the supreme head was really the great demon Jahve, and yet another leader (just before or just after Jahve) was actually a great Initiate of the White Lodge. (Do not bother asking me who I am talking about, for I will say no more about it).
Yet people go on assuming that the movement defines the members and leaders, when it is really the other way around. Just because someone calls himself Gnostic does not make him an angel.
Besides, most of the "history" of movements (and humanity) is all conjectural anyway. If you were there and a part of it, then I would be willing to consider it. But if you were not, then how can you say with confidence that said history has any truth in it?
Also have you read Reuss's teachings?
user.cyberlink.ch...
This might be a bit esoteric for the average Joe but I think you will get the gist of it
Originally posted by Tamahu
So it may not be far-fetched that the A.M.O.R.C. was financed by Zionists...
What is most interesting is that in the space of a breath a movement can shift from being guided by an Initiate on the ascending scale, to being guided by a demonic intelligence, and none of the members of that group will have a clue about it.
Yet they go on arguing about who is the best, who has the most knowledge, etc.
As interesting and useful as some of it may be, it isn't trust-worthy info; considering that he lumps Samael Aun Weor in with all the "Spermo-Gnostics" who teach Black Tantra.
My question remains:
Why would Franz Hartmann(who being an authentic Theosophist, would not have approved of Black-Tantra, as his attitude toward sexual conduct would be the same as H.P.B.'s, which is the same as the Gelug School) and Arnold Krumm-Heller(who taught the necessity of non-ejaculation in the sexual act), both proponents of White Tantra, have involved themselves with the O.T.O. if it's original Sexual Magic system suggested the orgasm?
Krumm-Heller met with Aleister Crowley on several occasions and, according to his unpublished memoirs, held him in high esteem. He may have visited Crowley in Cefalú. On June 7, 1930, Crowley, Karl Germer and Karl's first wife Cora met with Krumm-Heller at Krumm-Heller's house in Berlin, Germany. Parsival, then 5 1/2 years old, was there. Parsival remembers being terrified at first at the presence of "Therion." Crowley asked Krumm-Heller why he had named his son Parsival, and Krumm-Heller responded that Parsival had been born at the foot of Monsalvat in Spain. Crowley, who spoke in fluent Spanish to Parsival's father, spoke briefly to Parsival in broken German. Parsival recalls that Crowley's portrait was one of the five that hung in the F.R.A. lodge, the others being of Reuss, Papus, Hartmann, and Steiner.
Source: www.hermetic.com...
Anyway, all that mess between A. Crowley, Carl Kellner, Theodore Reuss, Papus, Swinburne Clymer, P.B.R., Arnold Krumm-Heller, Parcival Krumm-Heller, Israel Rojas, the A.M.O.R.C., O.T.O., F.R.C., F.R.A., etc., etc., etc. is a relative waste of time.
Originally posted by Cug
But as that was written by Crowley, you have have to ignore those words.
From what I see, the modern Gnostic Movement fits the above statement. Go to this page and scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the question "Q: What can you say about the phrase ‘Do what thou wilt' and the very prominent idea that Aleister Crowley is the main teacher of Thelema?"
Is that not a case of Yet they go on arguing about who is the best, who has the most knowledge, etc. ?
And to top it off their answer totally missrepresents the things Crowley said and contains several factual errors. Errors that a Student of the Gnostic Movement will never learn because they are told to "specifically avoid" his works.
I agree with you on the quality of Koenig's work. However if you skip over his personal ideas and read the vast amount of original source material on his site it can be worthwhile. For example the link I posted. That was one of the pre-Crowley O.T.O. instructions from Reuss himself without any of Peters commentary.
Originally posted by Cug
A multitude of reasons.. perhaps they changed their minds at some point in time, or maybe they did not see it as "evil" but simply as another school of thought. Really if someone like Krumm-Heller disliked Crowley's practices, why would they exchange letters and visit each other? In fact why would Krumm-Heller have Crowley portrait hanging on the FRA's walls?
Learning is NEVER a waste of time.