Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

Originally posted by The_Final
I would like to add that I started reading this not 2 seconds after Axemen posted this, and I am wondering why did you edit this post
(assuming it is the same as the prior post)? And I would like to express my amazement when I went through his entire post which is well written to adress the "Errors" that is seems that MrNecros included in his single post thus far into the thread.Anyways I thought I should bring it up, to put in a good word incase the post is edited agian.

Thanks, dude.

And to answer your question, I don't think he meant to delete my whole post (or did he... It's an anti-pro-Mason conspiracy! Argh! ), he just wanted to chastize me for making a joke.

And yes, the original post was very similar to the second, I just added a couple more passages and addressed the war thing, which I didn't mention the first time.

What I find extremely humorous about it is that he dismissed my entire post as "witty little comments" when actually it was very much like what I reposted. The only jabs I took at Necros in the original were 1) the obligatory toilet reference, and 2) the "try reading left to right" thing; both of which I courteously duplicated.

I guess I'm lucky I have a good memory.

[edit on 9/19/05 by The Axeman]

[edited per member request -nygdan]

[edit on 19-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by The Axeman
And to answer your question, I don't think he meant to delete my whole post (or did he... It's an anti-pro-Mason conspiracy! Argh!

), he just wanted to chastize me for making a joke.

Thanks for understanding. I hope everyone can get back on topic now.

Also, in C.W. Leadbeater's "Hidden Life in Freemasonry" he mentions that in a particular Masonic ritual, the Senior Deacon is symbolic of Lucifer.

[edit on 19-9-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu
Also, in C.W. Leadbeater's "Hidden Life in Freemasonry" he mentions that in a particular Masonic ritual, the Senior Deacon is symbolic of Lucifer.

Never heard of this, and assuming you are relating Lucifer with Satan it's very unlikely given the role of the Deacon. Could you give some more information on this?

In my lodge the deacons are represented by doves, or sometimes by Hermes (Mercury). In both cases this relates to communications.

OK man. EnronOutrunHomerun, I owe you an apology. I knoiw that you didn't mean to delete my post, and I was a little harsh in my response to it. For that I sincerely apologize.

There is something you should know, though. What really urked me, and what ultimately caused me to (over)react the way I did, was that you just dismissed my whole post like it was nothing but a one-liner with the sole purpose of being a turd and poking fun at Necros. Even though it is no secret that I have a go at Necros every once in awhile, you and I both know that this time, there was much more to it than that.

So in the future, I think it would help if, when and if you make a mistake, you don't add insult to injury by saying something like you did.

I do apologize for busting your balls the way I did, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

As far as the topic of the thread: Tamahu, I would also like to see a citation for your post (chapter or a page number?), so that I can look into that myself, and I'm still waiting for MrNecros (or anyone) to counter my previous post.

The Final - I normally ignore attempts to bait me by Freemasons such as yourself but I really can't understand how you guys will throw away ANY statement you don't like just out of hand.

Why read Moral & Dogma "backwards"?

Because Freemasonry is composed of a "series of veils” which are removed one at a time as you progress toward the higher degrees.
If you start at the 32nd Degree and work your way back then you begin with a condensed review of the entire Rite and then progress backwards from "The Truth" to what is acceptable by the ignorant hoards that call themselves Masons.

I get this reaction from every Freemason I show a copy of either "Morals & Dogma" or "The Book" to.
They are so sure that a profane is so stupid that they could never understand these works that they will not even entertain the thought of discussion.
Bad news is that these works are NOT some arcane and magical work - they merely need time and commitment to read.

I am yet to meet a Freemason in real life or in any Internet forum that has actually read either of these books, even if they try to claim otherwise (why anyone would actually try to lie about this sort of thing is beyond me.)

p.s. The bit about Good/Evil etc is near the bottom of this page.
But then again the whole thing isn't too hard to read.
Also please note that "Math" books along with most works of non-fiction are not read from front to back at all once you get out of Primary school.

www.illuminati-news.com...


[edit on 20-9-2005 by MrNECROS]

Hmm, this seems to be on topic, You tell me...


my main aim is to open up ourminds as to how we were taught about Lucifer. What political angle was being played upon us at school and why. i have limited knowledge but maybe someone could expand on this






Was Freemasonry defiled like all original bright ideas that had developed through humanity and the others or did it begin corrupted?



What does it mean to open the hands of lucifer?

I see it as making the Light principle work within the body, the hands relate to the meridians all over the body. To enlighten them is to become enlightened, so the main aim is still really the path to a higher self. That is before any concept of global dominance is applied to the equation. So how much have the masons deviated from the original path?


I ask, because everywhere a false impression of Lucifer still survives the decaying catholic church. Any figure described as a bearer or bringer of the elixhir called Light must be restored his/her real position eventually, especially when science has been monitoring the increasing Light in our solar system..

Was Lucifer a demonic and negative creature or were we programmed to believe that?


In fact there is no evidence of his existence except the images we hold onto like


How much of a creative person can a man be if he carried That much Light? surely creation would be his most highest aim rather than the destruction of the people he seems to be nuturing. Removing the catholic slur of all of their suppressed peoples over history, must reveal at least one quite different story in almost every case, so there is enough reason without evidence to be confident in stating that the concept/character we generally accept as Lucifer, may have been made a distorted picture. How much depends on why the catholics did this.. Studying on the Elven and fairy people, one eventually gathers that they were the ones who held the knowledge attributed to the celts and there has been a systematic erasing of the knowledge of a people who held affinity to the Light and had very real magical powers, (similar to the ones who help David Blaine to put his hand through glass or his chest, or cut off his ear in front of camera and grow another. All real science of Light)the god of these creatures is Lucifer. How negative were these people. I think the concept of elders was attributed to them because of the higher sophisticated knowing and wisdom that occurs when one is holding that much light energy. If this is new, do a google on Nicholas De Vere.

So who are the Masons really related to? Without holding knowledge of the grace, then downfall of thes fairy tale people, one has a great hle in their assumption of history


Masonic rituals and ideas eons later have developed perhaps influences from other agendas and may have thrawted the original reasons Freemasonry was introduced. For instance, one needs to be supporting the Jesus principle so not to be demonised by the dictators. One needs to impliment violence to ensure the continuance, stability, stealth and solidarity of the original hidden order. And Power eventually corrupts through outside negative influences.

What is this phenomena that influences the purest of concepts to make them weaker and blured of dirction and honour over the eons that they take to develope...?

I don't care, they all seem like limbless babies for all the understanding they have managed to utilise. we still have no blue grass or flying pink elephants... or not yet at least. They still hide and have no real power to share with the world as hey are supposed to. Unless I can be corrected here.


I am just worried on the addition of a corrupted view over Lucifer who did so well to look ater the Elven folk and keep balance on earth for all so long. He brough Light to make and sustain the light beings so to speak hence the highest masons glow.. And did he not design the humam?
Power corrupts unless yu become that power and the higher spirit can guide you..


I would prefer we approach our understanding of this not so ficticious character lucifer, remove the catholic slurs and then investigate him.


I hope someone understood all of that speculation. I am very wrong in the areas i know nothing about, like exact history etc...

Unwitting as it may be, you have just delivered the message that Pike is trying to convey in his higher writings - Lucifer is NOT Evil, he represents Freedom, Liberty and Individual Choice.
Adonay he claims, is a juxtoposition that embodies Law, Necessity and Responsibility.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The Final - I normally ignore attempts to bait me by Freemasons such as yourself but I really can't understand how you guys will throw away ANY statement you don't like just out of hand.

Heh. Heheheh. You see?

EVERYONE is a Freemason and NO ONE will admit it. Heheh.

Why read Moral & Dogma "backwards"?

Because Freemasonry is composed of a "series of veils” which are removed one at a time as you progress toward the higher degrees.
If you start at the 32nd Degree and work your way back then you begin with a condensed review of the entire Rite and then progress backwards from "The Truth" to what is acceptable by the ignorant hoards that call themselves Masons.

I can't help but notice your complete avoidance of my post which laid to rest pretty much everything you said about Lucifer and war being the driving principle and all. Am I surprised? Heheh. No. No I'm not. Not at all.

I get this reaction from every Freemason I show a copy of either "Morals & Dogma" or "The Book" to.
They are so sure that a profane is so stupid that they could never understand these works that they will not even entertain the thought of discussion.
Bad news is that these works are NOT some arcane and magical work - they merely need time and commitment to read.

You get what reaction? The idea that you should start at the beginning of the book and read front to back? Doesn't take a genius to know that is the way books are written.

BTW, I am "profane" at this point, and I have had no trouble whatsoever understanding Morals and Dogma... not only have I "entertained the thought" of discussion I have opened it up for everyone to participate in if they will. I notice you don't have anything to say there though, when Pike's words are presented so that the people you are attempting to decieve with your intellectual dishonesty can see what the pages actually say.

But I'm actually a Freemason just pretending that I am not, right Necros?

I am yet to meet a Freemason in real life or in any Internet forum that has actually read either of these books, even if they try to claim otherwise (why anyone would actually try to lie about this sort of thing is beyond me.)

While I'm not finished, I'm working on it (front to back). The index is my friend though, and I bounce around some.

Your ignorance (or probably more accurately downright dishonesty) about the subject of Masonry is nothing short of astounding. Why would someone lie about this kind of thing? You must know...

p.s. The bit about Good/Evil etc is near the bottom of this page.
But then again the whole thing isn't too hard to read.

No, it's not hard to read. In fact, let's take a look, shall we?

(mods please forgive the long quote)

pp. 858-861, Chapter 32: Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

The ROYAL SECRET, of which you are Prince, if you are a true Adept, if knowledge seems to you advisable, and Philosophy is, for you, radiant with a divine beauty, is that which the Sohar terms The Mystery of the BALANCE. It is the Secret of the UNIVERSAL EQUILIBRIUM:--

--Of that Equilibrium in the Deity, between the Infinite Divine WISDOM and the Infinite Divine POWER, from which result the Stability of the Universe, the unchangeableness of the Divine Law, and the Principles of Truth, Justice, and Right which are a part of it; and the Supreme Obligation of the Divine Law upon all men, as superior to all other law, and forming a part of all the laws of men and nations.

--Of that Equilibrium also, between the Infinite Divine JUSTICE and the Infinite Divine MERCY, the result of which is the Infinite Divine EQUITY, and the Moral Harmony or Beauty of the Universe. By it the endurance of created and imperfect natures in the presence of a Perfect Deity is made possible; and for Him, also, as for us, to love is better than to hate, and Forgiveness is wiser than Revenge or Punishment.

--Of that Equilibrium between NECESSITY and LIBERTY, between the action of the DIVINE Omnipotence and the Free-will of man, by which vices and base actions, and ungenerous thoughts and words are crimes and wrongs, justly punished by the law of cause and consequence, though nothing in the Universe can happen or be done contrary to the will of God; and without which co-existence of Liberty and Necessity, of Free-will in the creature and Omnipotence in the Creator, there could be no religion, nor any law of right and wrong, or merit and demerit, nor any justice in human punishments or penal laws.

--Of that Equilibrium between Good and Evil, and Light and Darkness in the world, which assures us that all is the work of the Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good: by attaining to the knowledge of which equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty.

Sympathy and Antipathy, Attraction and Repulsion, each a Force of nature, are contraries, in the souls of men and in the Universe of spheres and worlds; and from the action and opposition of each against the other, result Harmony, and that movement which is the Life of the Universe and the Soul alike. They are not antagonists of each other. The force that repels a Planet from the Sun is no more an evil force, than that which attracts the Planet toward the central Luminary; for each is created and exerted by the Deity, and the result is the harmonious movement of the obedient Planets in their elliptic orbits, and the mathematical accuracy and unvarying regularity of their movements.

--Of that Equilibrium between Authority and Individual Action which constitutes Free Government, by settling on immutable foundations Liberty with Obedience to Law, Equality with Subjection to Authority, and Fraternity with Subordination to the Wisest and the Best: and of that Equilibrium between the Active Energy of the Will of the Present, expressed by the Vote of the People, and the Passive Stability and Permanence of the Will of the Past, expressed in constitutions of government, written or unwritten, and in the laws and customs, gray with age and sanctified by time, as precedents and authority; which is represented by the arch resting on the two columns, Jachin and Boaz, that stand at the portals of the Temple builded by Wisdom, on one of which Masonry sets the celestial Globe, symbol of the spiritual part of our composite nature, and on the other the terrestrial Globe, symbol of the material part.

--And, finally, of that Equilibrium, possible in ourselves, and which Masonry incessantly labors to accomplish in its Initiates, and demands of its Adepts and Princes (else unworthy of their titles), between the Spiritual and Divine and the Material and Human in man; between the Intellect, Reason, and Moral Sense on one side, and the Appetites and Passions on the other, from which result the Harmony and Beauty of a well-regulated life.

Which possible Equilibrium proves to us that our Appetites and Senses also are Forces given unto us by God, for purposes of good, and not the fruits of the malignancy of a Devil, to be detested, mortified, and, if possible, rendered inert and dead: that they are given us to be the means by which we shall be strengthened and incited to great and good deeds, and are to be wisely used, and not abused; to be controlled and kept within due bounds by the Reason and the Moral Sense; to be made useful instruments and servants, and not permitted to become the managers and masters, using our intellect and reason as base instruments for their gratification.

And this Equilibrium teaches us, above all, to reverence ourselves as immortal souls, and to have respect and charity for others, who are even such as we are, partakers with us of the Divine Nature, lighted by a ray of the Divine Intelligence, struggling, like us, toward the light; capable, like us, of progress upward toward perfection, and deserving to be loved and pitied, but never to be hated nor despised; to be aided and encouraged in this life-struggle, and not to be abandoned nor left to wander in the darkness alone, still less to be trampled upon in our own efforts to ascend.

From the mutual action and re-action of each of these pairs of opposites and contraries results that which with them forms the Triangle, to all the Ancient Sages the expressive symbol of the Deity; as from Osiris and Isis, Har-oeri, the Master of Light and Life, and the Creative Word. At the angles of one stand, symbolically, the three columns that support the Lodge, itself a symbol of the Universe, Wisdom, Power, and Harmony or Beauty. One of these symbols, found on the Tracing-Board of the Apprentice's Degree, teaches this last lesson of Freemasonry. It is the right-angled Triangle, representing man, as a union of the spiritual and material, of the divine and human. The base, measured by the number 3, the number of the Triangle, represents the Deity and the Divine; the perpendicular, measured by the number 4, the number of the Square, represents the Earth, the Material, and the Human; and the hypothenuse, measured by 5, represents that nature which is produced by the union of the Divine and Human, the Soul and the Body; the squares, 9 and 16, of the base and perpendicular, added together, producing 25, the square root whereof is 5, the measure of the hypothenuse.

And as in each Triangle of Perfection, one is three and three are one, so man is one, though of a double nature; and he attains the purposes of his being only when the two natures that are in him are in just equilibrium; and his life is a success only when it too is a harmony, and beautiful, like the great Harmonies of God and the Universe.

Such, my Brother, is the TRUE WORD of a Master Mason; such the true ROYAL SECRET, which makes possible, and shall at length make real, the HOLY EMPIRE of true Masonic Brotherhood.

GLORIA DEI EST CELARE VERBUM. AMEN.

Well. So the part about "good and evil" you refer to is that "which assures us that all is the work of the Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good... that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty."

So basically what he is saying here is that everything comes from God, and that even though there is indeed sin and suffering in the world, it is for a purpose which, in His Wisdom He sees fit? Perhaps to elevate those who would overcome such evil and sin? To "seperate the wheat from the chaff" so to speak?

He does not, as you claim, say that there is no difference between good and evil, only that everything has its place and in God's Wisdom and in His plan everything is in balance.

Balance is a part of life. Without it we would constantly be at odds with ourselves and everyone else, including God.

Also please note that "Math" books along with most works of non-fiction are not read from front to back at all once you get out of Primary school.

Also please not that you cannot do geometry, trigonometry, or calculus until you can add, subtract, multiply and divide... and you understand the mathematical symbols and what they represent.

Peace Trinityman

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Tamahu
Also, in C.W. Leadbeater's "Hidden Life in Freemasonry" he mentions that in a particular Masonic ritual, the Senior Deacon is symbolic of Lucifer.

Never heard of this, and assuming you are relating Lucifer with Satan it's very unlikely given the role of the Deacon. Could you give some more information on this?

In my lodge the deacons are represented by doves, or sometimes by Hermes (Mercury). In both cases this relates to communications.

First things first; please show me where I equated Lucifer with Satan(if that's what you mean by "relating" Lucifer with Satan).

Lucifer is more like our Inner Psychological Trainer.

Satan is the ego.

One could say that Lucifer is like the devil that can be reformed or refined, or taken up from out of the mud.

Satan is the devil that cannot be reformed, and therefore must be destroyed.

This is my understanding anyway.


I'll later quote Leadbeater's writing on the S.D. and Lucifer if I get a chance.

Originally posted by Tamahu
First things first; please show me where I equated Lucifer with Satan(if that's what you mean by "relating" Lucifer with Satan)

Hey Tamahu.

Relax man. Just tryin' to have a conversation with you. Many many people relate Lucifer with Satan.

Let's bear in mind that over the internet, tone and inflection are not so easy to sense.


With this being said; it's all good, I'm relaxed.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The Final - I normally ignore attempts to bait me by Freemasons such as yourself but I really.......

As I have said before....I am 16 years old and still attend Highschool. This shows how much you understand about Freemasonry if you think that I could be a mason.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Also please not that you cannot do geometry, trigonometry, or calculus until you can add, subtract, multiply and divide... and you understand the mathematical symbols and what they represent.

The point I tried to being up with my Math book reference but I guess people didn't understand my meaning to a Math book in particular.

Originally posted by The_Final

Originally posted by The Axeman
Also please not that you cannot do geometry, trigonometry, or calculus until you can add, subtract, multiply and divide... and you understand the mathematical symbols and what they represent.

The point I tried to being up with my Math book reference but I guess people didn't understand my meaning to a Math book in particular.

No, it's not that people didn't understand; it's just that Necros tries to make his point very poorly... I was simply reiterating your point to him.

Not like it matters; as you can see he lives in his own little world.

He's been telling me I'm a Freemason ever since I started posting here.

In other words, anyone who tries to get him to explain himself, or disagrees with him on the subject of Freemasonry just must be a Mason...

[edit on 9/20/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The_Final

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The Final - I normally ignore attempts to bait me by Freemasons such as yourself but I really.......

As I have said before....I am 16 years old and still attend Highschool. This shows how much you understand about Freemasonry if you think that I could be a mason.

Dude, that was priceless!

Originally posted by The_Final
As I have said before....I am 16 years old and still attend Highschool.

Your move MrNecro

Or unless you will just stop posting in order to leave before you are in a corner in which you are unable to spew more crap about masonry out. But honestly I want to hear back from you,that goes with every other anti-mason on this board. Come one and come all!

okie im here what do you want?

btw Axie? why did you get that warn? i mean it wasnt becuase of anything you wrote to me was it?

lol for shizzle dizzle!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
okie im here what do you want?

Prove to me that Masons worship Lucifer. Simple as that, no rush. Lets see how you do and by the way good luck!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
okie im here what do you want?

btw Axie? why did you get that warn? i mean it wasnt becuase of anything you wrote to me was it?

lol for shizzle dizzle!

Ummmmm... well, I got pissed because a new mod made a mistake and deleted one of my posts, and I said something I shouldn't have. I asked to have it edited after the fact.

I was being a dick, basically.

Oh and Final, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you; Necros usually ignores baiting from Masons such as yourself...

Hi, newbie here. This is a very interesting topic that I wanted to comment on. I hope this isn't too off topic. I come to this conversation as neither a Christian nor a Mason or Masonry expert (by any means). So this is slightly off subject but still related to the topic of Lucifer.

I think the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary definition posted earlier actually had a lot to say on the matter. The second definition: the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star. Others mentioned Lucifer as an appellation of Venus as well but assumed (it seemed) the reference was to the goddess Venus/Aphrodite and not the planetary body Venus. The planet Venus is Lucifer, the light bearer, for the same reason it's the morning star, it visually precedes the dawn and thus, poetically, metaphorically, it is a standard bearer for the sun itself and the light of day. I'm no astronomer so please don't think I'm making any absolute statements about cosmological movements.

A lot of the mythological language of many cultures is quite obviously used as a means of transmitting a method of time keeping based upon observable celestial movements, sometimes through long periods of history where knowledge of such concepts would be select to a small number of individuals. This is as true in Christianity as it is in any other Indo-European system.

Another factor that has to be considered is politics. As Christian dogma was utilized to amass geopolitical power many concepts from competing theologies were appropriated and recast in a negative light. The term Lucifer is just one of thousands of examples of this, others include the aforementioned image of Pan, and the also aforementioned Saturn. Saturn/Chronos certainly does share many similarities to Satan and also to Set, the Egyptian Lucifer. The difference between Saturn or Set and Satan would be that the educated class of those societies would have understood these characters as poetic conceptions, and by this I do not mean to intend that they were not important to and revered by them.

In linguist scholar Harold Bayley's "Lost Language of Symbolism" vol. 2, a highly recommended volume for all, he discusses how the words ill, hell and evil once upon a time must have represented good, just as devil, lucifer and demon essentially all meant "the resplendent sole light". The Lu in Lucifer can be related to Lugh/Lu/Hu et al, the solar deity of the Celtic pantheon. While the time period of these language changes would be essentially prehistoric, it illustrates the process and effect of political religion on levels as basic as the origins of pan-global language.

I can in no way speak for masonry, certainly not on the level of the fine scholars posting on this thread, but my point in all of this is that when a certain religious dogma supersedes its competition, by force and otherwise, groups initiated in a common symbolic language or argot will pass taboo traditions and stories on to be discovered by future generations. This is in part, I suspect, what is at play in the masonic use of the term Lucifer. I hope I haven't deviated too far from the topic of this thread but I thought this perspective may be interesting for some of you.