Minute Men! Bored rednecks or protectors of our borders?

Passerby,
Here is a link to a thread that I started last week. It in regards to the arrest of 528 illegal immigrants by ICE. Most of these people that were arrested were gang members of such groups as Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13; Surenos; the 18th Street Gang; Latin Kings; the Mexican Mafia; Border Brothers; Brown Pride. These gangs are considered to be some of the most dangerous gangs in the Americas.
How do you think most of them got into the US? Do you think they did it legally? I think not as most were detained due to their illegal immigration into the US.
TERRORISM: Homeland Security operation targets members in 27 states

Give me a little while I and I will find a large number of other news and discussion threads that go over just how detrimental to US society the continued illegal crossing are.

undocumented immigrants arrested in refineries

Slight security issue there and scary when you consider the potential outcome.

Report urges troops sent to US-Mexican border

This is a problem that some of our political leaders recognize but are unable to really do anything about.

Feds Raid Florida Labor Camp To Rescue Slaves, Dent Human Trafficking

Then of course you have to start wondering about the health safety of the illegals once they get here.

Cinco de Mayo is Seditious and Causes Riots

No need to comment on the above link.
If you search the web, or here at ATS, there are a number of instances that clearly demonstrate that the illegal immigration into the US is costing the American citizen as well as legal immigrants much more than the lose of low paying jobs.

Agreed that there are going to be a criminal element in any immigration system - legal or otherwise. That is an effect of societies having a mixture of law abiding and law breaking people, and different shades within. Take for instance here in Canada we have a Jamican crime problem and people can show you stats upon stat's of Jamican criminals caught deported, etc - but when they are shown within the context of the overall immigration from Jamica it is clear that the majority come here to make a better life for themself's. Ofcourse, balance is never what issues like this are ever about.

In the end, what has to be looked at is the overall picture and when you do that those very real concerns you raise show themself's to be generally a small percentage of the overall.

Passerby,
I agree to an extent. There will always be a criminal element to all levels of society not just to those who enter the US illegally. The number of hard working "honest " immigrants do outweigh by a large exent those who are here for nefarious reasons.
But, this argument really does not detract from the argument for securing the southern border between the US and Mexico. I am of the opinion that the american people need to secure the border to stem the flood of illegals into the country. It is estimated that there are over 1.5 million illegals crossing into the US annually. No other country in the world would just stand by and allow suchto occur. Allowing people who by the very nature if their entry demonstrates their disregard of American laws.
By closing the borders to these illegal crossings, to make it easier for those that do wish to enter the country legaly for even temporary worker visas such as was proposed a few years ago.
I was recently in an auto accident where my car was broadsided by a large truck. The people who were driving the other vehicle were drunk and they failed the field sobiety test given to them by the police. They had no insurance (the accident was their fault), the drivers license's that they gave the cops were all false with bad addresses. The phone numbers that they gave were also bogus. The police informed me that due to the "information that they had been provided, that the others in the truck were most likely illegals.
They were arrested and released the following morning. Guess what..... they are no where to be found. I and my insurance are having to foot the bill, I have just over the weekend had the casts removed from my legs. You know what is better.... my wife was hit by a company truck driven by illegals last year. We are still paying those bills.

I would just like to point out the agression of some of the american posters on this thread agaisnt mexicans. Now im sure u do have alot of illegal mexican immigrants in your country, but you talk about these people like they are a disease or are jsut pure dirt. You think that in your "american dream" everyone has a chance?
Yes they may suck off ur welfare, but if your family was starving would you not want to take them to the so called land of oppurtunity? You watch these movies and tv shows, see that the people up north are living it large, while you are lucky to be surviving, would you not want to try to get the wealth from the north to be able to give the best you can to your family? I think most people would.
The real problem you are having is the distribution of wealth in the region, people are going to migrate to where their is more wealth. America hoards its wealth. The rich nations of the world need to put distribute their wealth to the poor of the world. Yes you may be without a plasma screen tv and a new psp, but atleast you know that there are no people dieing at the cost of your greed.

Originally posted by Passer By

OK, lets assume that you are not doing this "for them" or their rights or saftey issues. Red herring.

These dark times, are merely fear mongering or maybe you can show me where some disgrunteled Mexican did somethign grevious? I am not sure you can though. There is no real reason other than maybe - maybe saying that it lowers the overal wage paid and thus has a deterimental effect overall - but that is easy to deal with through litigation towards the companies that employ these people, and not by going after the people themself's.

In the end I still haven't heard a valid reason for this mexican threat. They are not terriorist, they are people looking to make a better life forthemself's - which is what your(and mine) countries were founded on.

Where is the mexican threat? Or could it be merely something to get people frieghtened and gain more control over them?

Show you somehting that they have done that is grevious you mean like the drug trafficing through New Mexico? Or how bout the major Gang problem in Albuquerque that have alot of illegal members.

It is not fear mongering to pont out that the southern boarder is open to just about anyone who wants to walk in. If you are willing to enter into a country Illigaly that sets a prediposition tward a disreguard for law.

That is not to say that everyone who comes over that way is a criminal, but rather it would be a criminals prefered method of entry.

you are obviously Canadian, tell me, would you prefer that anyone from the USA enter into your country via a recognised checkpoint. Where if your police feel it neccessary to check our cars. Or have an entire section of your country open so that anyone can just walk into Lethbridge in Alberta, how bout if a serial killer from the USA went to Canada to escape the law.. after all he just wants a better life in Vancouver.

Point is, the immigration issue is not that they all are criminals or threats.. but rather to prevent those who are criminals and threats from harming a citizan.

Originally posted by Passer By
So your argument is that they are doing everything that normal Americans do daily?

I wasnt aware it was illegal for americans to be in our own country.

I could careless rather there are mexicans here or not, i do care if there are people comming into our country illegaly because we dont know who they are, they could be some kid just looking for a job, or they could be somone who wishes to do us harm, or come and leach while amercan tax dollars foot the bill.

You wanna come to the U.S? fine, but do it legaly.

And as far as the Mexicans are concerned.

Im still waiting on you people who make it seem as if Americans are the bad guy for not wanting illegals here, To focus your attention away from us, and focus it on the real problem, the Mexican government, they must be doing something seriously wrong if there citizens need to invade our lands to make a living.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by C0le]

Originally posted by MrBunny
Or at least contraty to what you thought I was saying though I never said they were problems with the MM in Sout Texas Just that my friend works with that group, though I can see the conclusion and apologize if it was misleading

You say…

Originally posted by MrBunny
I think their hearts are in the right place however they are causeing more harm then good.

etc, etc, etc

Originally posted by MrBunny
Oy' Mate, If they were an organized group then they woulden't have so many of their members runnin off to do their own thing now would they?

You keep making my point and yet you still confuse the difference between individuals and an organized group.

Perhaps vigil antes are ‘running off’ or individuals however; most of the Texas boarder is privately owned and ranchers guard their own property and lines; some work with the Border Patrol (not all). They can hire anyone or allow anyone to watch their property on the border period. This has been going on for decades. (hint: these persons are not called Minutemen) Sensors have proven less than useless over the years because of cattle, hunters and wild game activity. (oh yeah and the tens of thousands of illegals crossing occasionally set the sensors off too).

Perhaps your 'buddy' is biased and his 'job' will be affected negatively because the border patrol and supporting agencies are failing and failing miserably.

BTW, Texas ranchers welcome the Minutemen with open arms. Also, I do quite a bit of hunting in West Texas and the Minutemen have requested to be on my lease in October, no one disagreed out of 162 slots.

Originally posted by MrBunny
If this organized group took the appropriate steps to work with the official enforcement agency then we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

1) You are having the discussion albiet; based upon loose facts and by placing or calling all persons that want to support border protection by taking personal action as being members of the Minutemen. That is wrong, and oversimplification and an assumption.

I’ll repeat myself… An organized group is not ‘individuals acting on their own’, savvy?.

2) This discussion 'we're' having is becasue the borders are a mess and people are beginning to take matters into thier own hands, the government has failed (State and Federal) and continues to fail.

Originally posted by MrBunny
Now, ow'bout you actualy take a moment to get more than 2 brain cells firing at the same time and don't say anything.... Stupid.

Person insults are not required and to my knowledge not allowed in this forum.

If you have nothing more to offer than insults and information such as “I din't say but I say my friend says…” then just leave it at that and move on.


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MR BUNNY:

How about the Mafia - maybe target Itailian's? Target the Irish because of the IRA, all Blacks because of the Jamican Crime scene, etc, etc, etc - and hey how about the poor - we all know the inner sities and the crime that is there right?

See the problem? All nations have crime problems and to focus on the criminals instead of those, the majority, who are merely trying to live the dream is tantamount to embrasing ignorance. There is no doubt that crime exists, there is also no doubt that crimes will effect you - but to claim, as seems to be the case here, that because of the criminal presense, that allows another criminal presense(vigiliantism) is illogical at best.

Would I prefer that all immigrants enter Canada legally? Ofcourse, but I also understand the need for speed and sometimes that laws, created by those wishing to control people, are seldom at the beneifit for people and should people need to flee to Canada I would oppose any restriction on it. As when American's came here to aviod the draft - many didn't officially come here, they came across the boarder and we took care of them. As a friend should.

I understand your concern's, and no doubt in TX it is a huge deal - but they are first and foremost people. People needing help, help America by it's founding beleif's are obliged to help.

Originally posted by C0le

Originally posted by Passer By
So your argument is that they are doing everything that normal Americans do daily?

I wasnt aware it was illegal for americans to be in our own country.

I could careless rather there are mexicans here or not, i do care if there are people comming into our country illegaly because we dont know who they are, they could be some kid just looking for a job, or they could be somone who wishes to do us harm, or come and leach while amercan tax dollars foot the bill.

You wanna come to the U.S? fine, but do it legaly.

Wish to do you harm? How do you sleep at night with all this fear you have towards other people? Man, this should be a class on how more guns and weapons you have lead into cowardice. Newsflash, they are entering the US for the same reasons your parents, or grandparents, or greatgandparents, did - for the chance at a better life.

If your concern is the American tax dollar, something I would agree with, then isn't there bigger fish to fry in terms of corperete welfare? If the concerns are crime, then isn't there bigger fish to fry in terms large scale crime families that plague all large cities?

Seems to me at the outstart, and more so now, that it is a red herring. People decided to take the law into their own hands, and others are justifying it anyway they can. Add a dash of fear mongering and you have a recipe for for problems.

In either case, let me ask you Cole(and everyone for that matter), what would be the reaction if these "minute men" while tryingto "get" someone, were ambushed by a great many of someone's and killed or tied out or assulted, etc. Then what? Close the boarder completely? Barb wire it, fense yourself's in. Just like Eastern Berlin?

That slippery slope just keeps on slipp'n

Different times.


different people.

Originally posted by C0le
Different times.


different people.

I'll buy that. Not sure how much of a case it makes, but it is true.

So, then the question about what if a minuteman or group gets ambushed by a larger group of mexicans. Then what?

Seriously do you think that any nation can really be isolationist? I agree with you that people should go through the normal channel's, but then did the minutemen? Seems to be something wrong here. Logically, you can support none or both of them, but to be against one for not going through the proper channels, while praising the other for not going through the proper channels seems.....strange.

Passerby,
Let me take a stab at answering your questions

So, then the question about what if a minuteman or group gets ambushed by a larger group of mexicans. Then what?

If such were to occur while the minutemen were on american land, then this would amply demonstrate the need for the US goverment to do it's duty. By the way you are actually citing actual events by saying that. There have been a number of occasions where mexican police, the mexican military, as well as the gangs, have opened fire on the border guards as well as ranchers laying ground fire to assist with the illegal border crossings.

Seriously do you think that any nation can really be isolationist? I agree with you that people should go through the normal channel's, but then did the minutemen? Seems to be something wrong here. Logically, you can support none or both of them, but to be against one for not going through the proper channels, while praising the other for not going through the proper channels seems.....strange.

How is protecting the border being isolationistic?
How does using normal channels for entering the country relate to how the minutemen entered? most were natural born americans and those who weren't were natualized.
The last part, I am lost can you clarify what you are refereing to?

Originally posted by Passer By
In either case, let me ask you Cole(and everyone for that matter), what would be the reaction if these "minute men" while tryingto "get" someone, were ambushed by a great many of someone's and killed or tied out or assulted, etc. Then what? Close the boarder completely? Barb wire it, fense yourself's in. Just like Eastern Berlin?

That slippery slope just keeps on slipp'n

It seems that many are not aware of the multitude and dimensions of crimes already committed (and being committed) on the Texas Mexico border. Although what you mention above would make the ‘news’ it would not be ‘big’ news. I believe, generally, most are be greatly underestimating the situation as it exists in Texas.

Terror Plagues Border: Corruption, Kidknapping, Crime Ruining Texas Town
www.sierratimes.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">(link)

"There are people who own property along the Rio Grande here in Texas who are targets of the drug cartels," he explained. "They are saying to them, 'Don't come to your place.' They are asking some of them who live in these areas to move out so they can do their activities. They are coming [after] their families, they are coming after them. We are talking about a very serious issue here that a lot of people do not really understand."

Sheriff Flores, Laredo, TX
(link)

Add to this numerous murders occurring every month and trafficking, it is an absolute mess. Rarely do I see or read much about this in the national news (only brief small mentions).



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KEN, thanks for the reply.

I didn't know that they had fired on the minutemen. How as it handled?

The isolantionist thing was more of a slippery slope. First it starts with citizen's gaurding the southern boarder against Mexican's - then the northern boarder for terrorist(Natural extention from one to the other, and has already been suggested by Buchanan I beleive) from there it is easy to see how the legal means to enter the country becomes starved off leading to effective isolationism.

Not that I see that as a bad thing or good thing. Just seems like a road that wouldn't be beneficial to many people.

How is the southern boarder dealt with down there. Here, at the peace bridge it is pandamoanium most times with jacked up boarder gaurds. I simply refuse to go down south now because I know I'd end up in a little room being violated after my Mr Smartass comments wouldn't be looked upon fondly! LOL!!

Mental note - Boarder gaurds have no sense of HA HA.

Originally posted by Passer By

1.Shoot them of course.
2.If im not mistaken, the MM get permission from people to patrol certain parts of the border. That seems like the proper channel to me, and as far as public land is concerned they can guard if they so choose, its american soil, its ours.

Originally posted by C0le

Originally posted by Passer By

1.Shoot them of course.
2.If im not mistaken, the MM get permission from people to patrol certain parts of the border. That seems like the proper channel to me, and as far as public land is concerned they can guard if they so choose, its american soil, its ours.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't vigiliantism illegal? Are they duely deputised officers of the Law? If no, then they are breaking the law, just as suredly as those immigrants are - only one is traditionally a violent crime and the other isn't.

That said though, people should have the right to defend themself's, I am just wondering if the mexicans decided to protect themself's whether there would be more of an outrage.

WHat is the deal? Just too much land to cover by real law officers, or no money or a combination of the two? Or is it that deep down the politicians simply don't care?

Passerby,
Sorry for the misunderstanding. The minutemen were not fired upon. If they had there would have been international press on this issue.
Although there were warnings by M-13 that they would do so.
In the past though, border patrol as well as private land owners have been fired upon by mexican police / military and gangs. Most of these incidents though only get local press and at most a 15 second sound bite on the national news.
There are weekly reports of local homeowners, farmers and ranchers land and property being torn down damaged etc by illegal immigrants who find such obstacles inconvient to their crossing into the US.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Passerby,
Sorry for the misunderstanding. The minutemen were not fired upon. If they had there would have been international press on this issue.
Although there were warnings by M-13 that they would do so.
In the past though, border patrol as well as private land owners have been fired upon by mexican police / military and gangs. Most of these incidents though only get local press and at most a 15 second sound bite on the national news.
There are weekly reports of local homeowners, farmers and ranchers land and property being torn down damaged etc by illegal immigrants who find such obstacles inconvient to their crossing into the US.

True, I am sort of worried that if the mexicans did take out a couple of the minute men things would go from bad to exceptionally bad in very short order. Not that I disagree with the prinicple(other than I dislike all map lines, but besides that) of defending your own border, but firearms and normal citizens have a bad way of turning ugly. Lets hope this isn't the case and it is really just good hard working American's helping where they can.

What happens when they catch someone crossing? Take them back? Send them to the cops? Tire them up and force them to listen to Celine Dion cd's?