It takes intelligent life to detect intelligent life.

sleeper, I was hoping you would post in my physics of ufo travel thread. check it out sometime.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

Back on the subject, not everyone has the same beliefs about other forms of intelligent life...

Many of us know differently, life from out there is here, been here for sometime and they regularly come and go.

Some of you are hypocritical. Your only argument for life outside this planet is "the universe is so big there has to be” That to me is a flawed argument. Over the course of history can anyone guesstimate how many humans have walked this Earth? Billions, upon billions. And how many "you's" have there been during that time. I’m guessing 1. That being the case, who’s to say that we are not unique beings and just as there is one you; perhaps there is only 1 earth and only 1 human race. And until life can be found elsewhere or “sleeper” can provide evidence of his knowledge, I choose to believe that life may or may not exist. But for anyone to insist it exists else where is just as ignorant in my opinion. I guess somewhere out there is planet contrived of unicorns, fairies, or giants. I mean the universe is infinite, right? There has to be! You all sound stupid to say the least! Odds may be fairly good, but not 100%. And as of yet they stand at 0%. But again, (insert your strongest argument) the universe is infinite, there has to be!

[edit on 1-8-2005 by CrossBone]

Originally posted by evilution

Originally posted by sleeper
It takes intelligent life to detect intelligent life...If most of our high paid scientist are running around telling people that we are it (that we are the only inteligent life in the universe) than what can the average person think?

Yeah...which is a lie. Most scientists hope there is intelligent life, and are searching for it. But if they can't find any evidence of it, they can't very well say that it's there.

Now on to SETI. It was Seth Shostak of the SETI Institute who noted:

"The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants."

I think you're assumign that if you believe in aliens in the universe, you have to beleive that the UFO's in our atmosphere are their craft. One doesn't necessarilly follow the other. Try again.

The same scientists who once thought there were only 9 planets in the solar system...now all of a sudden there are 10 planets? OK, ok…not so fast wabbit. Some in the human world eagerly await the decision by the International Astronomical Union on whether 2003 UB313 will be designated a planet.

"Planet", "Asteroid" and "Star" are simply names given to different configurations fo matter and energy. The argument is over what the specifications for "Planet" should be. This is a Red Herring argument.

Still, humans are still forced to speculate what is happening outside fish tank Earth, and are just beginning to branch out with space probes going to nearby planets, most recently & notably to Mars in order to answer questions that cannot be answered in the confines of Earth itself, for ‘assumptions are the mother of all screw ups’ Case in point:

The basic requirements for life as scientists know it so fart are liquid water, organic compounds and an energy source for synthesizing complex organic molecules. Beyond these requirements, they do not yet understand the environmental and chemical evolution that leads to the origin of life and will not with an Earth- centered view of the universe!

Scientists are investigating ammonia- and silicon-based life. Silicon isn't very likely. Ammonia may be, but since we have yet to observe life in an ammonia environment, it's all speculation.

If there is significant evidence that there is or once was life on Mars, will it open up the human mind to the possibilities of life and intelligent life on other planets?

OK, from now on, whenever either of you makes the false claim that science denies the possibiltiy of alien life, I'm just going to reply with the word "Lie." It will save time.

I believe that sleeper is making the argument that humans are still trapped in fish tank earth & are limited in their ability(ies) to detect anything that exists beyond their senses & understanding. Let's face, so long as humans do not have access to total reality, they are limited in their knowledge of it (the totality of the universe), and are not in control of phenomena that purposely appear in our realm of experience.

There ‘is more’ than meets the mind in/outside the fish tank!

I see. You've written an entire paragraph with the meaning, "Humans cannot sense or understand anything outside of their ability to sense or understand."

No #, Sherlock. Hope you didn't pull any muscles thinking of that gem.

Now, again, this has little to nothing to do with what you are saying. Humans are very capable of comprehending alien life. Maybe not all alien life, but much of it, should it exist. Just because we're stuck on this one rock NOW doesn't mean that we're always going to be here. Your claim that science denies the existence of alien lfie is WRONG. At worst, a lie so that you can make yourself feel superior to the proles with your understanding of "total reality" bull#.

So, I will ask you again- Post your reasoning for claiming that the scientific communtiy deneis the existence of aliens life. Not the existence of the occupants of UFOs, not denying the existence of Nibiru or the Annunaki or whatever. Just the general denial fo life outside of Earth. Show me this widespread disbelief. I am aware of the Rare Earth theory, but that's just a theory by a few, not an accepted truth by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by Esoterica

Originally posted by evilution

Originally posted by sleeper
It takes intelligent life to detect intelligent life...If most of our high paid scientist are running around telling people that we are it (that we are the only inteligent life in the universe) than what can the average person think?

Yeah...which is a lie. Most scientists hope there is intelligent life, and are searching for it. But if they can't find any evidence of it, they can't very well say that it's there.

Now on to SETI. It was Seth Shostak of the SETI Institute who noted:

"The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants."

I think you're assumign that if you believe in aliens in the universe, you have to beleive that the UFO's in our atmosphere are their craft. One doesn't necessarilly follow the other. Try again.

The same scientists who once thought there were only 9 planets in the solar system...now all of a sudden there are 10 planets? OK, ok…not so fast wabbit. Some in the human world eagerly await the decision by the International Astronomical Union on whether 2003 UB313 will be designated a planet.

"Planet", "Asteroid" and "Star" are simply names given to different configurations fo matter and energy. The argument is over what the specifications for "Planet" should be. This is a Red Herring argument.

Still, humans are still forced to speculate what is happening outside fish tank Earth, and are just beginning to branch out with space probes going to nearby planets, most recently & notably to Mars in order to answer questions that cannot be answered in the confines of Earth itself, for ‘assumptions are the mother of all screw ups’ Case in point:

The basic requirements for life as scientists know it so fart are liquid water, organic compounds and an energy source for synthesizing complex organic molecules. Beyond these requirements, they do not yet understand the environmental and chemical evolution that leads to the origin of life and will not with an Earth- centered view of the universe!

Scientists are investigating ammonia- and silicon-based life. Silicon isn't very likely. Ammonia may be, but since we have yet to observe life in an ammonia environment, it's all speculation.

If there is significant evidence that there is or once was life on Mars, will it open up the human mind to the possibilities of life and intelligent life on other planets?

OK, from now on, whenever either of you makes the false claim that science denies the possibiltiy of alien life, I'm just going to reply with the word "Lie." It will save time.

I believe that sleeper is making the argument that humans are still trapped in fish tank earth & are limited in their ability(ies) to detect anything that exists beyond their senses & understanding. Let's face, so long as humans do not have access to total reality, they are limited in their knowledge of it (the totality of the universe), and are not in control of phenomena that purposely appear in our realm of experience.

There ‘is more’ than meets the mind in/outside the fish tank!

I see. You've written an entire paragraph with the meaning, "Humans cannot sense or understand anything outside of their ability to sense or understand."

No #, Sherlock. Hope you didn't pull any muscles thinking of that gem.

Now, again, this has little to nothing to do with what you are saying. Humans are very capable of comprehending alien life. Maybe not all alien life, but much of it, should it exist. Just because we're stuck on this one rock NOW doesn't mean that we're always going to be here. Your claim that science denies the existence of alien lfie is WRONG. At worst, a lie so that you can make yourself feel superior to the proles with your understanding of "total reality" bull#.

So, I will ask you again- Post your reasoning for claiming that the scientific communtiy deneis the existence of aliens life. Not the existence of the occupants of UFOs, not denying the existence of Nibiru or the Annunaki or whatever. Just the general denial fo life outside of Earth. Show me this widespread disbelief. I am aware of the Rare Earth theory, but that's just a theory by a few, not an accepted truth by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh...poor baby! Did I hurt your feelings with the statements in my last post?

Originally posted by EsotericaAt worst, a lie so that you can make yourself feel superior to the proles with your understanding of "total reality" bull#.

That's a very serious charge Doctor Obscurerica! Oh..oh yeah! I should write something in complete agreement with your ideas, then I wouldn't feel so superior.

Esoterica's unauthorized edited signiture:
"What do you expect? Einstein? Freud? Buddha? Sorry, but Dr. Esoterica is still fighting mental health...in Obscurerica"

Originally posted by evilution
Oh...poor baby! Did I hurt your feelings with the statements in my last post?

No, I just find it fun tearing into the hacks, nutjobs, and just plain dumb people that make up much of the, um, vocal membership of ATS. Mensa this ain't.

That's a very serious charge Doctor Obscurerica!

I thought it was a cool word

Oh..oh yeah! I should write something in complete agreement with your ideas, then I wouldn't feel so superior.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Esoterica
No, I just find it fun tearing into the hacks, nutjobs, and just plain dumb people that make up much of the, um, vocal membership of ATS. Mensa this ain't.

Right. And while many people on ATS are trying to deny ignorance, you’re too busy trying to deny your stupidity. It aint gonna werk, you Aristocritic Mensa Beasturd,
because in fish tank Earth, you're drowning in your own pool of ignorance.


[edit on 1-8-2005 by evilution]

Originally posted by CrossBone
Some of you are hypocritical. Your only argument for life outside this planet is "the universe is so big there has to be” That to me is a flawed argument.

Thousands of people have had face to face contact and have been in their ships----because it didn’t happen to you it didn’t happen to anyone----is that a bit egotistic?

That being the case, who’s to say that we are not unique beings and just as there is one you; perhaps there is only 1 earth and only 1 human race.

Those that know can say that-----most that know don’t have to tell or prove it to anyone----and they don’t. I tell because I feel like it----but I don’t have to prove it---Darwin didn’t have to prove anything and everyone believes him.

And until life can be found elsewhere or “sleeper” can provide evidence of his knowledge, I choose to believe that life may or may not exist.

Nothing wrong with living in a bubble, in a make-believe world---millions are doing just that.

But for anyone to insist it exists else where is just as ignorant in my opinion.

It takes quite a powerful mind to believe we are alone in the universe---not. I can’t imagine anyone believing that way----even if I didn’t have my experiences I would believe in extraterrestrial life----it’s just plain uncommon sense.

You all sound stupid to say the least! Odds may be fairly good, but not 100%. And as of yet they stand at 0%.

You think we sound stupid, I’m not the one running around telling everyone that the earth is the center of the universe----isn’t that like really old news----that’s the stuff they believed in the Dark Ages. We now have airplanes and television and computers, and satellites, surely we have a little more smarts that they did a few hundred years ago.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
sleeper, I was hoping you would post in my physics of ufo travel thread. check it out sometime.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

Back on the subject, not everyone has the same beliefs about other forms of intelligent life...

I have read parts of that thread, lots of interesting stuff.

Since we are talking about ETs that are thousands of years ahead of earth to speculate what propulsion system they use to traverse the galaxy would be quite a reach, don't you think?

Some type of magnetic manipulations device, and strings, the basics of matter mixed in with the essence of the gravity particle.

Even if you had the list of ingredients----how would you harness them and incorporate them into a working prototype with earth’s existing technology?

When the time is right and the infrastructure is in place----many many years from now, only then will that information be turned lose to the scientist----and then they can claim credit for it.

My goal was to look at the possibility of travelling these great distances.

We know that e=mc^2, and thus we cannot exceed the speed of light with mass. We can observe this by accelerating particles in an accelerator.

Detecting intelligent life would be a challenge indeed. Consider how far it is to the neareset star.



We wont be travelling these great distances anytime soon.

You're kidding right?

Have you REALLY looked at the technical basis being used for SETI? It's a laugher! A guy that is capable of making a statement like...

'Otherwise, don't clog what could be a good discussion board with your complaining over nothing'

will no doubt make short work of enlightening us about the SETI search specifics... especially to a bunch of dunces...

'Well, intellgient life certainly ain't in this thread'

like us.

Here is a big hint, Esoterica, it's just a funding scam by establishment scientists. Lots of guys, making lots of money, trotting around playing scientist.

It takes a lot of practice in the mirror getting that special 'I am a scientist looking for ETs' intelligent look...

Thousands of people have had face to face contact and have been in their ships----because it didn’t happen to you it didn’t happen to anyone----is that a bit egotistic?

And just like many before you I take those claims with a grain of salt. Knowledge that powerful must be a burden on you. I mean, you have information that could literally change the course of mankind. Can you fathom that? I couldn't. What info could be more powerful! And individuals like you have the nerve to throw it around, with no proof mind you, as if it were the location of the nearst McDonalds.

Those that know can say that-----most that know don’t have to tell or prove it to anyone----and they don’t. I tell because I feel like it----but I don’t have to prove it---Darwin didn’t have to prove anything and everyone believes him.

1st your no Darwin. Secondly, he was reticuled because he couldnt prove his theory in the begining. Thirdly, these fantasitc claims, are just that. Extrodinary claims that are nothing more than sci-fi stories read to pass the time away. I no more believe in reptiles than I do the dragons and mystical elves I read about. Interesting and mildly humorous are what I get from them.

Nothing wrong with living in a bubble, in a make-believe world---millions are doing just that.

If I live in a bubble than your delusional. Being cautious about what I believe is hardly living in a bubble. In fact anyone buying what your selling is living in the bubble. Its not my style to jump on a wagon just because of wild unproven claims. And in this case your wagon is a roller skate with a wheel missing.

It takes quite a powerful mind to believe we are alone in the universe---not. I can’t imagine anyone believing that way----even if I didn’t have my experiences I would believe in extraterrestrial life----it’s just plain uncommon sense.

Your statement leads me to believe that you would just as easily make up your claim in that case. If you needed no experience to believe, then whos to say that your expierence isnt one you made up. You may want to believe so much your mind created it. Just like they say, If you look in the clouds for a face you will find one.

More will come later

But after reading your post, an honest observer couldn't help but ask the question... So what's your point?

Sleepers contention is basically that... it takes intelligence to recognize intelligence.

A point that I'm sure thinking individuals could provide thousands of examples, though anecdotal, that are valid nonetheless.

I could be so bold as to advance a corollary to sleepers basic premise. Something to the effect of...

Those with little imagination or filled with doubt will often tend to project their limitations onto others...

But what exactly would be the point?

It just wouldn't measure up to the clarity and quality of sleepers statement... much like the contrast between sleepers well structured supporting arguments and your seeming to want to grind your axe.

Originally posted by sleeper
If most of our high paid scientist are running around telling people that we are it than what can the average person think?

Why are you hiding from our "creationism and evolution' forum??

Creationism AND evolution... All right!

Is it a running of the Dogmatic 500?

Gentlemen... start your soapboxes!

You wouldn't happen to have a handy url would you?