NEWS: London's Push For Surveillance Plan.

In what appears to be a response to the tragic London bombings, individual privacy in Britain may take another blow. At the current rate, Britain may soon have the ability to monitor all UK citizens, and in doing so, may well become the world leader in mass surveillance of the general populance, when compared to other Western nations. A proposal is set to be introduced by the UK Interior Ministry that would sanction the monitoring of all phone calls, text messages, and even emails. The retention of such recorded monitorings would be held by telephone companies and internet service providers for one to three years. This proposal is seen as a measure to stop future acts of terrorism.



Many here within ATS have condemned the Bush Administration for the Patriot Acts, and yet, is the UK pushing something that is near the same? Is there no grumble of discontent among those British members? No concerns? Police state ring a bell? As with the Patriot Acts, there is great danger for abuse within this UK proposal. With the passing of restrictive anti-terrorism and security laws, whether it be in the US or in the UK, is it necessary that they be anti-privacy, as well, to thwart future acts of terrorism? Finally, will this proposal pass this time around?

[edit on 12-7-2005 by John bull 1]

It could only happen. Something sooner or later would have triggered something like this. I'm sorry for everyone this is going to effect, the invasion of privacy and all. Already know what its like living in the states....

I think if you read on the boards, there has been quite a bit of discontent about the increasing invasion of privacy in the UK.

Ranging from things like per mile taxes and quotas on travel, automatic limiting of vehicules speeds by satelite and numerous other subjects.

I'm as surprised as anyone how the british population takes this crap and doesn't make more noise about it.

Here's the deal, Valhall. There are mass murderers in our midst. If we don't do something to catch these vermin and kill them, they will kill you and everyone you love. Is there no one who is willing to sacrifice anything in the war on terror? Liberty is not absolute, even under the best of circumstances.

England doesn't have the benefit of our Constitution, so perhaps they have more to fear, but the fact is that if we can't find some balance between personal liberty and necessary security, the terrorists will deprive us of our way of life using those very freedoms.

We Americans build into laws like the infernal and utterly stupid "assault weapons" ban and the Patriot Acts an expiration date so that we can revisit the issue at a later date. Such an arrangement seems reasonable to me, but then, I have nothing to hide.


[edit on 2005/7/11 by GradyPhilpott]

GradyPhilpott, we never needed to introduce new laws like these to fight the I.R.A. why should we now?

London already has on average 20 cameras, on "you" when you walk down the busy areas. There are cameras and listening devices in tube stations and in reality phone records and internet records are already kept and gone through.

So these new laws, don't introduce anything "new" nor will they defeat the problem of "terrorism".

I have been holding this thought for several days now.

This kind of neurotic police-state look-up-my-bung surveillance will compromise the liberty of millions whilst doing nothing to deter a single Islamic militant.

Those are the key words in this battle: Islamic militant.

"Look! There on the monitor behind me auntie May! Going into the tube!" is not going to help- by then its obviously too late. Reading my many missives to my uncountable lady friends will not enhance national security, either. But there is a solution.

It worked in Spain in 1492.

Let's call it "The Haj Foundation". We can fund it with public money and private contributions:

The Haj Foundation exists to help every Islamic militant fulfill his or her obligation under the Koran to undertake a pilgrimage to Mecca. The Foundation provides tickets, free of charge, to militants and all members of their families, friends and associates.

Haj Foundation tickets are non-refundable and one-way.

Persons unable or unwilling to accept the Foundation's gift will be relocated by other means...

No deposit- no return.

We have to face up to the fact that this is not a religion or race issue. It is a philosophical issue; and our opponents in this war of ideas and bullets are impossible to live with.

Someone has to say it, so I will: they should be repatriated. Kicked out. Sent off packing. The Spanish learned it the hard way: one does not live with Islamic militants.

So I say: target them, and leave the rest of us alone.

[edit on 11-7-2005 by Chakotay]

What about the Muslims who are not Militants?

How do we know the difference until it is too late?

The UK is already the most "watched" society in the civilised world, with more CCTV cameras per head of population, than any other country throughout Europe and the US.

So surveillance, in it's own right, is not going to do much to deter or stop a terrorist attack in the future.

What is needed is

1/ A free flow of information between all the UK intelligence services.
2/ A free flow and exchange of information between countries that are currently being targeted by terrorist organisations
3/ Most importantly a plan that will help discouarge young, intelligent men and women from being recruited at many of the major seats of learning throughout the world.

Don't ask me how to acheive the above.......I simply don't know, just a couple of my thoughts at 07.00 in the morning!

BillyTheCat

It was pointed out by one talking head today that the infrastructure for surveillance is already in place in London and other English cities and that all that is really needed is an emphasis on terror instead of lesser concerns such as errant drivers. I would also think that a concerted effort on the part of the rationale segment of society to be vigilant and to report suspicious activity, instead of "minding one's own business." Really, the "trojan horse" is within our gates. It may very well be too late, but we shouldn't go down without a fight.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
It was pointed out by one talking head today that the infrastructure for surveillance is already in place in London and other English cities and that all that is really needed is an emphasis on terror instead of lesser concerns such as errant drivers. I would also think that a concerted effort on the part of the rationale segment of society to be vigilant and to report suspicious activity, instead of "minding one's own business." Really, the "trojan horse" is within our gates. It may very well be too late, but we shouldn't go down without a fight.

I am fairly sure, more people die from dangerous driving and/or drink driving then have died from terrorism in the U.K?

Really, the emphasis doesn't need to be shifted but as someone already said there needs to be tabs kept on those who travel world over and on specific internet travel. It's fairly easy to register if someone visits and extreme site and then find out what's on their computer through "remote" access - which I am sure our Government has done before.

These people didn't learn how to make bombs out of thin air. You need to take things to the "source" of the "problem" and not the smaller symptom.

Double post.

[edit on 11/7/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Here's the deal, Valhall. There are mass murderers in our midst. If we don't do something to catch these vermin and kill them, they will kill you and everyone you love. Is there no one who is willing to sacrifice anything in the war on terror? Liberty is not absolute, even under the best of circumstances.

England doesn't have the benefit of our Constitution, so perhaps they have more to fear, but the fact is that if we can't find some balance between personal liberty and necessary security, the terrorists will deprive us of our way of life using those very freedoms.

We Americans build into laws like the infernal and utterly stupid "assault weapons" ban and the Patriot Acts an expiration date so that we can revisit the issue at a later date. Such an arrangement seems reasonable to me, but then, I have nothing to hide.

Give me liberty, or give me death. Its that simple and I mean every word of it.

I would rather die than live in the police state planned for us.

Objectively speaking here, I have always found it ironic that some within ATS have condemned the US repeatedly for the Patriot Acts and how it is becoming another police state controlled by fascists, etc., and yet, realistically, the UK is the one that is becoming a true police state.

Interestingly, the same ones are now condemning a US commander's order for US troops and personnel stationed in the UK, to stay out of London. How can they continue to condemn US actions when one of the greatest fears of the 20th and 21st century's is about to become nearly full-filled in the UK? I guess they have no problem with being monitored 24-7, eh, but yet, they still call and insinuate that the US is this and that?

I grow increasingly frustrated when I read such from some of those UK members, because to me, they simply need to look in the mirror before pointing those fingers...





seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Objectively speaking here, I have always found it ironic that some within ATS have condemned the US repeatedly for the Patriot Acts and how it is becoming another police state controlled by fascists, etc., and yet, realistically, the UK is the one that is becoming a true police state.

Interestingly, the same ones are now condemning a US commander's order for US troops and personnel stationed in the UK, to stay out of London. How can they continue to condemn US actions when one of the greatest fears of the 20th and 21st century's is about to become nearly full-filled in the UK? I guess they have no problem with being monitored 24-7, eh, but yet, they still call and insinuate that the US is this and that?

I grow increasingly frustrated when I read such from some of those UK members, because to me, they simply need to look in the mirror before pointing those fingers...

Seekerof, just who are you refering to? I re-read all the posts in this thread and not one of them is criticizing American generals for banning their men from our capital.

Am I "some within ATS" that you are refering to who criticize the Patrior Act? Because I do. But if you'd also notice im just as critical when it comes to my own, British, government. A government that is more than willing to remove any remnants of civil liberties my Queen graciously affords me.

I condemn both Seekerof.

There isn't really much difference in what is being implemented, the only difference is that they get a harder fight for it here. Every bit of legislation like this (like the ID cards) gets fought hard; even if the fight ends up being futile.

I knew as soon as this bombing happened that they would come up with something like this, and quickly, because now is the only time they could have an easier job in getting it passed. Even then this bill getting passed isn't a forgone conclusion. If I remember rightly they tried something very similar to this bill a year or two ago and it got blocked.

Yes there have been thousands of CCTV cameras in the UK for ages, but in reality many of them either aren't manned, recording or even switched on. Most of the rest that are, apart from speed cameras, are focused on areas of high crime and even then are only watched or recording part of the time. They're a deterrent mostly for urban violent crime and petty theft, which is amongst the highest type of crime in the UK. Most people tolerate them because they seem to work.

Anyway, I'm going to sit back now and wait for these bombings to be linked to Iran.

Originally posted by kegs
Anyway, I'm going to sit back now and wait for these bombings to be linked to Iran.

I think you're right

Larry Johnson, a former senior counter-terrorist official at the state department, said: "When the story ultimately comes out we'll see that Iran has run one of the most masterful intelligence operations in history. They persuaded the US and Britain to dispose of its greatest enemy."

U.S intelligence fears Iran duped hawks into Iraq War

Thats got to rankle both Bush and Blair quite a bit

Tony Benn (Former Labour MP) has already said we've became a Police State. To most people it is clear we are.

No right to defend ourselves.
No weapon to defend ourselves with.
One camera for every other person.
Police able to stop and search you as they see fit (in selected areas of the U.K.)

If it wasn't for the "Law Lords" stopping half of this from happening, we would be in a lot worse state than we already are. Just be glad the Law Lords are mostly "Old School" Labour or Tory.

``

well good luck to the British, (seriously!)

the USA tried the MATRIX (Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange)-see: www.matrix-at.org...
Only 9 of the 16 states remain in the network-
see: www.informationweek.com...

the USA is still trying to refine the Patriot Act 1 & 2

maybe they will have a better go at it, after seeing what doesn't work, from our inspired creations.

Originally posted by St Udiowill have a better go at it, after seeing what doesn't work, from our inspired creations.

im guessing you've never read george orwell's 1984 have you? where do you think 'your' inspiration came from?

Ok here it is. If someone or some group wants to make a bomb, detonate it, thus killing many people they will do it and there is nothing ANYONE can do to stop them. It is called free will and nothing anyone does, including the gov't will stop them.

Trying to stop someone, doing something as crazy as this, is impossible. All of these new surveillance methods used saying they will thwart the terrorists from doing it again is like saying. Lets watch 6.5 billion people at once and stop all the murderers in the world from murdering. It is sad but true that no one can stop someone from their own free will.