Bibi’s Dilemma

a reply to: yuppa

Of course. Terrorism happens on only one side. We all know that.

a reply to: yuppa

THOSE people are not worth your sympathy except as a fellow human being.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Zi·on·ism
[ˈzīəˌnizəm]
noun
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

____________________________________________________________________

I searched and could not find a single post or thread about all the Ukranian women and children who have died because of Russia.

Wonder why?

_____________________________________________________________________

But sure Israel and Jews are bad, m'kay?

originally posted by: KrustyKrab
a reply to: jofafot

What war crimes has Israel committed? Not saying they haven’t, just curious what you think they are.

Are you saying that Israel hasn't committed war crimes or you want to go about the definition of what a war crime is? Is this some sort of baiting technique? Not the best possible I would say.

Let's say the killings of tens of thousands of civilians constitute a range of war crimes.

Do you want now to dismiss the killings and argue we don't know the actual number of people who were killed. This is the next point in these conversations. But doesn't make any difference as it is widely accepted there are tens of thousands of dead people.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Zi·on·ism
[ˈzīəˌnizəm]
noun
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

____________________________________________________________________

I searched and could not find a single post or thread about all the Ukranian women and children who have died because of Russia.

Wonder why?

_____________________________________________________________________

But sure Israel and Jews are bad, m'kay?

Nothing much said on the topic of this thread. The accusations of antisemitism are widely used and the purpose is to censor debate or even silence opposition and criticism of the war crimes committee by Israel. It doesn't change the fact that Israel has killed tens of thousands of civilians so far and is in a campaign of ethnic cleansing by carpet bombing large areas of Gaza and by displacing over a million of people.

originally posted by: Taferson
Let's say the killings of tens of thousands of civilians constitute a range of war crimes.

Nope. That's just what war does. People die.
The number of people dying in Gaza is relatively low compared to other wars.

World War II - 50,000,000 Dead

World War I - 40,000,000 Dead

Vietnam War - 1,353,000 Dead

Korea War - 525,000 Dead, over 1 Million Missing

Iraq War - Over 1 Million Associated Deaths

Iran/Iraq War - 500,000 Iraqi dead and 750,000 Iranian dead

And the supposed numbers given by Hamas as the 'Gaza Death numbers' is bogus.
They aren't accurate.
No one knows how many people have died in Gaza.
But we do know that the number give out by Hamas is wrong.

Abraham Wyner, a professor of Statistics and Data Science at the Wharton School, has done an analysis on the claims by Hamas about the death totals. And his conclusion is that the numbers are bogus.

Hamas’ Gaza death toll stats are pure fiction

Wyner’s critique is damning: The daily reported death tolls rise in a straight line, about 270 a day — which makes zero sense, since in any war, some days see far greater fighting and bombing than others.

Plus there’s no correlation between the reported numbers of children and women slain each day (when most kids are surely near their mothers) or between the numbers of women and men.

Also, the ministry claims that 70% of the dead are women and children, while Hamas admits to losing 6,000 of its (male) combatants — which would mean that almost no male civilians have been killed.

The obvious conclusion is that the ministry is just (clumsily) making it all up. It’s definitely not presenting real info gathered from across Gaza.

The graphs and the math are at the link -

Hamas's Gaza death toll is exaggerated or faked, statistics expert claims

A professor of Statistics and Data Science at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, Wyner provided a detailed analysis of the data from the Gaza Health Ministry, which showed that they had, at the very minimum, been doctored – and at worst, completely faked.

Wyner first tackles the total reported deaths, which he shows climbed by 270 plus or minus about 15% every day. This, he says, is statistically impossible: "There should be days with twice the average or more and others with half or less." "The graph of total deaths by date is increasing with almost metronomical linearity," he says – meaning at a regular rate, like a metronome.

"Most likely, the Hamas ministry settled on a daily total arbitrarily," he concludes. "We know this because the daily totals increase too consistently to be real. Then they assigned about 70% of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed."

He also highlights that by Hamas's own admission, 6,000 Hamas fighters have been killed, which if combined with Hamas's data on deaths, shows that 20% of the total deaths are combatant while 70% are women and children. This implies that "Israel is somehow not killing noncombatant men, or else Hamas is claiming that almost all the men in Gaza are Hamas fighters."

In conclusion, he says, "The truth can’t yet be known and probably never will be. The total civilian casualty count is likely to be extremely overstated.

How Hamas "Gaza Health Ministry" Fakes Casualty Numbers

Here’s the problem with this data: The numbers are not real. That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work. The casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters.

Not only do official Palestinian death counts fail to differentiate soldiers from children, but Hamas also blames all deaths on Israel even if caused by Hamas’ own misfired rockets, accidental explosions, deliberate killings, or internal battles. One group of researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health compared Hamas reports to data on UNRWA workers. They argued that because the death rates were approximately similar, Hamas’ numbers must not be inflated. But their argument relied on a crucial and unverified assumption: that UNRWA workers are not disproportionately more likely to be killed than the general population. That premise exploded when it was uncovered that a sizable fraction of UNRWA workers are affiliated with Hamas. Some were even exposed as having participated in the Oct. 7 massacre itself.

The truth can’t yet be known and probably never will be. The total civilian casualty count is likely to be extremely overstated. Israel estimates that at least 12,000 fighters have been killed. If that number proves to be even reasonably accurate, then the ratio of noncombatant casualties to combatants is remarkably low: at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1. By historical standards of urban warfare, where combatants are embedded above and below into civilian population centers, this is a remarkable and successful effort to prevent unnecessary loss of life while fighting an implacable enemy that protects itself with civilians.

originally posted by: KrustyKrab

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: KrustyKrab
I won't answer because of two reasons:
1. You didn't answer my question. You only accepted idf committed war crimes(" Not saying they haven’t"). My question was "what do you think about idf's war crimes?". It was NOT "what do you think about these specific war crimes I'll list". If you are not answering any questions but always asking them do not expect an answer from me. That's not how a conversation works. What you are trying to do is probably best described as an interrogation.
2. You tried to bait me into arguing about definition of war crimes, which made me think you are replying/arguing in bad faith, which is basically trolling.

Oh ffs please, you’re being ridiculous. You and the rest of the socks here won’t answer the question because it shoots down your “genocide” theory y’all keep repeating. Perfectly legal to bomb civilian dwellings, hospitals, schools, mosques, businesses, tunnels, etc…when they are being used to hide and harbor military combatants, weapons and ammo. So I want to know what specific war crimes Israel has committed??? I mean you keep running your mouth about IDF war crimes, yet you or OP can’t tell me what they are specifically. I don’t know of any war crimes that Israel has committed. Why, because there is no proof that I’m aware of that they’re just killing Palestinians indiscriminately for chits and giggles. Do you have proof? Tell me what war crimes IDF has committed. This should be easy for you and the OP to answer since it’s all I hear from y’all.

Israel has been accused of committing genocide by a range of lawyers and diplomats as well as politicians. If you think these accusations are only made by online posters then you are either very mistaken or deliberately hiding the truth.

www.independent.co.uk...

Brazil's president accuses Israel of committing genocide in Gaza, doubling down after earlier uproar

Not just anyone but the President of a country with a population of 216 million people

a reply to: FlyersFan

Nice attempt to dismiss the tens of thousands of dead people by arguing people die in wars but unfair didn't work this time.

You need to look up at the definition of a war crime and crime against humanity.

originally posted by: KrustyKrab
a reply to: jofafot

What war crimes has Israel committed? Not saying they haven’t, just curious what you think they are.

a reply to: FlyersFan



www.washingtonpost.com...

I’m Jewish, and I’ve covered wars. I know war crimes when I see them.

As Israeli forces grind through Gaza in what the International Court of Justice defines as a “plausible” case of genocide, my family’s history of philanthropy runs into my familiarity with war crimes. When Israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals, and cuts off water supplies, I remember the same outrages in Bosnia. When people in a Gaza flour line were attacked, I thought of the Sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread and the perpetrators who in each case insisted the victims were slaughtered by their own side.

Jewish journalist and writer accuses Israel of war crimes.

No need for further comments.

originally posted by: Taferson
Nice attempt to dismiss the tens of thousands of dead people by arguing people die in wars but unfair didn't work this time.

Yes, it works just fine. It's a fact. People die in wars. And the reason people are dead in Gaza is because Hamas and the 'palestinians' attacked a country that could beat the snot out of them, and then they ran and hid behind civilians. NO ONE would be dead in Gaza if Hamas and the 'palestinians' hadn't attacked on Oct 7, and no one would be dead in Gaza if Hamas and the 'palestinians' would hand over the hostages and lay down their arms. ANY dead people are the fault of Hamas and the 'palestinians'. Israel has a right to self defense.

You need to look up at the definition of a war crime and crime against humanity.

You need to take a hint. When you've been banned two dozen times ... it's long past time to leave.

a reply to: FlyersFan

en.wikipedia.org...

The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip: over 34,262 have been killed, 70% of them are women and minors

Is Wikipedia also written by...Hamas?!

Is the media here in the West try to support a 'Hamas' narrative?

Or maybe everyone knows the truth that you can't accept as you blindly support Israel in this conflict.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The apologies you are offering don't work at all and nobody seems to be interested in a poster who offers apology after apology for the war crimes committed by Israel. I don't think anyone reads your posts other than the first few lines and understands that the rest of the text is.

www.reuters.com...

Spanish minister accuses Israel of war crimes.

The Brazilian President has accused Israel of war crimes.

The ICJ is looking at the case.

It's rather very serious for the paranoic regime in Israel.

originally posted by: cherokeetroy
a reply to: yuppa

Of course. Terrorism happens on only one side. We all know that.

One side has killed around 1,500 people.
The other side has killed multiple times that. Most conservative estimates speak of over 30,000 without counting the injured and the displaced after Israel engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

It seems terrorism happens only one way. Then people ask the question what is wrong in our societies.

originally posted by: Taferson
The apologies you are offering don't work at all ...

I didn't apologize for anything, alienborg/Leviathan4/Venkuish1/Taferson.

I stated the fact that people die in every war.
I stated the fact that the numbers out of Gaza are impossible and fake Hamas propaganda.
I stated the fact that the numbers of dead in Gaza are LOWER than other wars.
I stated the fact that ANY dead are the fault of Hamas and the 'palestinian' supporters.

originally posted by: Taferson
Is Wikipedia also written by...Hamas?!

No .. useful idiots like you spam WIkipedia and write anything they want.


You are emotionally invested and obsessing again. Spamming the forum and getting banned from here multiple times a day. Go get a job. See a doctor too. It's not healthy behavior.

Now Hamas admits that 1/3 of the numbers they have given out as 'dead civilians' can't be verified in any way and they may even be made up (no surprise there).

Federation for the Defense of Democracies

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data but did not define what it meant by “incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records.

Prior to its admissions of incomplete data, the health ministry asserted that the information in more than 15,000 fatality records had stemmed from “reliable media sources.” However, the ministry never identified the sources in question and Gaza has no independent media.

“The sudden shifts in the ministry’s reporting methods suggest it is scrambling to prevent exposure of its shoddy work. For months, U.S. media have taken for granted that the ministry’s top-line figure for casualties was reliable enough to include in daily updates on the war. Even President Biden has cited its numbers. Now we’re seeing that a third or more of the ministry’s data may be incomplete at best — and fictional at worst.” — David Adesnik, Senior Fellow and Director of Research

“It is important to recognize that Hamas is deeply invested in shaping the narrative that emerges from Gaza, particularly regarding the number of casualties in the war. Moreover, this control of data extends beyond the statistics provided by the Hamas-controlled health ministry, as there is also a deliberate effort to downplay the number of terrorists who have been killed by Israel in the war, potentially numbering more than 10,000.” — Joe Truzman, Senior Research Analyst at FDD’s Long War Journal

Wall Street Journal - Hamas Numbers Game with "Civilian" Death Counts and Casualty Data

Foundation for the Defense of Democracies - 5 Things to Know About the Hamas Run Gaza "Health Ministry'

The recent Al-Ahli incident further undermines the ministry’s credibility
On October 16, 2023, media outlets around the world reported rapid claims made by the Gaza Health Ministry that Israeli missiles struck the al-Ahli hospital, killing around 500 Palestinians. The U.S. intelligence community assessed that a Palestinian rocket likely caused the damage and estimated that 100 to 300 people died at the hospital, while a European official put that figure at below 50. The Washington Post and Wall Street Journal, among others, later revised their coverage and reported that evidence strongly favored a Palestinian rocket as the cause of the blast. Relatedly, the ministry’s data includes Palestinians killed by other Palestinians. In August 2022 clashes, for example, errant Palestinian rockets caused one-third of the reported Palestinian fatalities. The Israel Defense Forces estimated that nearly one-fifth of the Palestinian rockets fired at Israel during that conflict malfunctioned or otherwise fell short of their target.

The Gaza Health Ministry death tolls do not distinguish between civilians and combatants

The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its count. Its casualty figures also do not identify the circumstances of death, making it impossible to identify terrorists who died in the initial assault on Israel or during the Israeli defensive operations that followed. Within days of the gruesome attacks of October 7, 2023, Israeli officials reported they recovered the bodies of 1,500 terrorists in Israel. The Health Ministry has not clarified whether or not these individuals are counted on its registry. Hamas’s casualty count might also include Palestinian minors and adults aiding Hamas fighters in an auxiliary capacity. Analysis from The New York Times during the 2014 Israel-Hamas war found that men ages 20 to 29 were the most overrepresented among the dead. Hamas also employs fighters above and below that range, but this is a strong indication that Israeli attacks targeted and succeeded in eliminating Hamas terrorists.

Washington Institute - Gaza Fatality Data Has Become Completely Unreliable

In the first month of the war, the Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health (MOH) in Gaza relied on its existing collection system, made up primarily of hospitals and morgues, to certify each death. Starting in early November, however, hospitals in northern Gaza began to shut down or evacuate during the Israeli ground invasion, spurring the MOH to introduce a new, undefined methodology for counting fatalities: media reports. This methodology, which the MOH has rarely acknowledged publicly, accounts for the majority of fatalities reported over the past four months, surpassing the traditional collection system.

A comparison of the two methodologies, using MOH reports and claims published by the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO), yields wildly different and irreconcilable results, indicating that the media reports methodology is dramatically understating fatalities among adult males, the demographic most likely to be combatants. This undercuts the persistent claim that 72 percent of those killed in Gaza are women and children—a problem that has worsened since it was first noted by a Washington Institute report in January.

IDF estimates it has killed 12,000 Hamas fighters. All those dead will be counted as 'palestinian civilians' by Hamas .. and probably falsely claimed to be women and children as well. The claim by Hamas that 70% of the dead are women and children is statistically impossible.

IDF Says 12000 Hamas Fighters Killed in Gaza War

The Israel Defense Forces said Monday that troops have killed some 12,000 of Hamas’s estimated 30,000 gunmen in the Gaza Strip since war erupted on October 7, after a Qatar-based official for the terror group claimed it had lost half that number — some 6,000 fighters — during the four-month-old conflict.

Hamas is also believed to have thousands of operatives who are seriously wounded and unable to fight.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I stated the fact that people die in every war.

True. People die in every war. But according to this dehumanizing "logic" there should be nothing to worry about 6 million jews who died during WORLD WAR 2. There should be nothing to worry about people who died during october 7 attacks. We don't need to be sad for them. We don't need to value human lives. Don't blame me for anti-semitism, I am only using your "logic".

I stated the fact that the numbers out of Gaza are impossible and fake Hamas propaganda.
I stated the fact that the numbers of dead in Gaza are LOWER than other wars.

True, numbers out of gaza really are "impossible" to know which makes your other point wrong since knowing real numbers is "impossible".

I stated the fact that ANY dead are the fault of Hamas and the 'palestinian' supporters.

What about those that never supported hamas in the first place? Do you support killing of innocent people then try to justify it by using "not my fault"? How does that work in your mind? I'd like to understand your point of view. Let's say, for example, I designated your children as terrorists and killed them even though they did nothing wrong then made a statement "it is not my fault they were terrorists" even though they were not, how would you feel in that situation?

No .. useful idiots like you spam WIkipedia and write anything they want.

Is that how it works? Anyone who doesn't agree with your views(politics wise) is an "useful idiot"?

originally posted by: jofafot

Do you support killing of innocent people then try to justify it by using "not my fault"?

It’s Hamas that hides legitimate targets and their assets behind human shields. If Hamas that has launched 10,000’s of thousands of rocket and motor attacks into Israel from Gaza over the years isn’t hiding in neighborhoods and schools, name one Hamas rocket base and its location.


You can’t hide and cower behind civilians, do nothing to evacuate and shelter civilians, directly target civilians over years like Hamas, then not expect collateral damage when Israel had enough.

If Hamas that sanctioned the murder, rape, torture, kidnapping of civilians on Oct 7th would have surrendered instead of starting a bloody war during a cease fire, many more people would be alive.

So? Who’s not valuing human life? Hamas. Then they use human shields to boot. How do you fight an enemy that is relentless in killing Jews and cowering behind human shields and not expect collateral damage.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Here is all I need to know about the situation...

"If Hamas and Hezbollah laid down their weapons there would be peace, if Israel laid down their weapons there would be no more Israel."

a reply to: Lazy88
You really didn't answer the question. And it was not about hamas. It was not even about palestinians. I simply asked a question that anyone, who can write, should be capable of answering. Here's another question. Hypothetically speaking, if my neighbor turned out to be terrorist and if you were the commander who is able bomb the entire building to kill my neighbor. Are you going to do it? Are you going to kill me and say "its not my fault there was a terrorist in there" ?