Biden says 'no' to sending F-16s to Ukraine as allies mull request

Thought he needed them to fight the 2nd amendment folks.

a reply to: cmdrkeenkid

The first Belgian Panthers are at the FACO in Italy, so they’re a lot closer. However, the Netherlands pulled the last of their Vipers out of the US to rub them through maintenance before delivery to Draken. They are, I believe, the third to retire their Vipers for F-35s, so there are a number available to donate.

originally posted by: cmdrkeenkid

originally posted by: putnam6
thought this was interesting and found it on F-16.net which backs up Belgium mothballing F-16s they had 160 F-16s and Poland had 48 F-16s and both have ordered F-35s. So it would seem they would potentially have F-16s to send

I think you have the number of Belgian F-16s a bit off. Multiple sources state they have 44 F-16As and 8 F-16Bs. The -B is the training model, though combat capable.

Flight Global page 13 (PDF)
WDMMA.org

It will be years before the Belgian and Polish F-35s and built and deliveries are complete. It will be even longer until the squadrons will be operational. Neither can do away with the F-16s before then.

Apologizes wasn't insinuating that Belgium had 160 operational F-16s just that at one time they order that many 2nd most behind the US and therefore would possibly have more surplus than other NATO countries to send.

After all, if Zelenskyy wants 200 F-16s who are we to stand in his way Belgium doesn't need 40 operational F-16s who exactly going to attack Belgium, where it doesn't get an immediate response from the rest of NATO?

Pretty sure Belgium could send 10 F-16s without much of a concern

Although the USAF has a large proportion of retired F-16s, it is by no means the air force with the largest active force reduction. That honour falls to Belgium, with only 60 F-16s active out of 160 originally delivered - or just 37.5%. The Netherlands are at exactly 50% active inventory today. In the case of Belgium, the active force was reduced significantly at the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the end of the Cold War. Thirty-one aircraft were put in storage at Weelde AB in 1994. All of these aircraft were scrapped in 2005 in the dismantling center at Rocourt. In 2008, a further 16 active F-16 MLU aircraft were sold to Jordan with another 9 to follow in 2010.

www.edrmagazine.eu...

The first Belgian F-35 will in fact be delivered in 2023, however the first eight aircraft will remain at Luke AFB where they will be used to train Belgian pilots, the plan aiming at identifying the first F-16 pilots that will go through the conversion programme in mid 2022, maintainers training to start in 2023, here too the first to be chosen among experienced personnel.All personnel will be single-hatted, that is no one will be employed simultaneously on F-16s and F-35 flight lines, the only exception being initially some simulators instructors. At the end of the handover process Belgium aims at having 67 F-35 operational pilots available to answer the country Level of Ambition. Currently Belgium can provide to NATO an F-16s package for unlimited deploying comprising six aircraft, a 4-aircraft package for limited deployment, and a 2-aircraft package for Air Policing missions. Belgium fields 45 F-16 Block 15 plus nine as attrition, all of which underwent an MLU in the late 1990s, a total of 85 pilots being available, 11,500 hours being flown every year, which can be increased to 12,500 in case of operations, one simulator per base being available exploited for around 1,200 hours per year, total manpower being around 2,600. Thanks to the availability of the simulators, which will “fly” 4,500 per year, the F-35 will have a standard activity of 7,950 hours per year that might increase to 9,150 in case of operation, the declared Level of Ambition declared by Belgium once the new aircraft will reach the FOC being of a package of six aircraft for unlimited periods and two aircraft for Quick Reaction Alert duties, the Belgian Air Component working in team with the Royal Netherlands Air Force, each nation providing two-week shifts ensuring 24/7 air dominance over the two countries. Overall the F-35 force will require 2,100 personnel, a reduction of nearly 20% compared to the current F-16 force.

originally posted by: Creep Thumper

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: Creep Thumper
Wow, Biden grew a set. Color me shocked.

Biden probably couldn't get his usual 10% in the deal

The question is why will he send everything BUT fighter jets. What's the angle?

Pure speculation on my part, it would be an overt sign of escalation #1 and #2 much like unscrupulous doctors prefer to treat you forever than to cure you once. The MIC the theory goes wants forever wars and the MIC has Biden's ear.

Besides if he doesn't send them another NATO country will and boom he sells them the F-35s as an upgrade

a reply to: Creep Thumper

Because we can’t send any quickly. We can’t reduce the current force without violating the Key West Agreement, which Congress probably won’t allow, and they can’t get any out of AMARG in less than 8-9 months.

F-16 is very difficult to service. It's not a rugged bird like MiG-29 is. MiG-29 can operate from a dirt road. F-16 can't. F-16 can only work if Ukrainians use Polish airbases. But using one's territory to attack is an act of war. Hence Ukraine and Belarus broke relations. Poland refuses to break relation with Russia. So using Polish airbase is out of the question.

Although personally I think A-10 and Apache are better choices. The US is retiring A-10 and it's quite a bit rugged than F-16 requiring less servicing.

so Ive recognized a pattern with current President, he backs down to staunch Republicans at the most convenient of times..first glaring example was his concession to legally handling the title 42 busnesss in an expedient fashion (which would have followed the party line) and now this..The way its been handled from the jump is dead wrong, but since we are in it now, may as well send them the birds and train some pilots..why be halfway? Lets do it.

Looks like the German's are getting a little nervy about sending fighter planes..........................."Philip Oltermann reports for the Guardian from Berlin:

Germany’s vice-chancellor has spoken out against his country delivering fighter jets to Ukraine, saying such a move would “probably” be a step too far for western allies weighing up support for Kyiv’s cause against fears of being drawn into an outright war.

Robert Habeck, deputy to chancellor Olaf Scholz and Germany’s minister for economic affairs, was an early supporter of his government supporting Ukraine with German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks, and defended the decision in a talk show on Tuesday night.

However, he said, “there is a difference between battle tanks and fighter jets”, echoing Scholz’s caution about making promises regarding such equipment." www.theguardian.com... ator-role-if-asked

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Germany is in a worse position than us to send fighters. There have been improvements in their readiness in the last couple years, but it was in shambles not long ago.

Air power in Europe is generally weak. Russia has been planning 100 Su-57 by the end of the decade. They are nowhere near that. Germany and France also not been spending a lot on air power. Sweden is quite heavily harmed with about 100 Gripens. I can see Sweden donate a dozen or so Gripen to Ukraine to fight Russia with.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Germany is in a worse position than us to send fighters. There have been improvements in their readiness in the last couple years, but it was in shambles not long ago.

Thanks Zaph for pointing that out. I had no idea how bad things had got with the German military. It sort of explains how excellent the countries infrastructure is if they've diverted money away from defence, just didn't realise how bad things had got with the planes etc. Just googled and read this www.spiegel.de... -99a3-ef0c27dcc797

So Joe said no, was that to keep the image of democrats not being the same war mongering hawks as the right while knowing full well they are as war mongering as anybody including full on communist ….somehow people never seem to see through the fake veneer.

They will find away . They will go through Poland it is becoming so corrupt with Ukraine and Russian war and NATO..

a reply to: Jobeycool

The F-16s were only ruled out through US channels. Nothing says allies can't transfer them.