No seriously Ireland as Atlantis?

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Byrd

You make a good point, but if we say the sea levels were a lot lower back then and you listen to the Basque and the Canary Islanders, they say they came from a drowned land.

Can you provide a link? I'm not seeing a reliable older source here.

This theme is still prevalent in all the tales from these coastal regions today. Cro Magnon was said to have expanded from the west by even the mainstream. For that to have been the case the base seems to be missing, but if vast swathes of land have been inundated it would strengthen the case. Advanced civilizations exist today alongside the so-called backward ones. But the advanced society will always have the knowledge to produce the goodies from the basic raw material, the benefactors will always be just that until they also gain this knowledge. We do have a hint of ancient stuff being of higher quality in many places, and then just stopping.

Can you give an example of these pieces that are the same and found in many cultures in Europe? (An example would be something like the trade blankets of the Navajo that can be found in many countries and all date to post 1800 or so)

I can't think of any in Europe that would match this, but I don't claim to be the world repository of knowledge.

He isn't the only one suggesting Ireland a Swedish geologist is onboard as well, There was a theory being pushed a while back that Homers Ulysees was based in Northern Europe, Masses of bronze age weapons keep turning up in Norfolk from some ancient battle, In fact, a friend who I worked with father had dug up a well-preserved bronze spear point, it was bent where his shovel hit it, but it was high quality and the part that fitted the shaft was looking like it was made recently.

Europe had the Bronze Age as well, so Bronze Age material in Norfolk are from European (not Greek) sources. European Bronze Age starts later than that of the Mediterranean area.

History must have a lot of holes in it, if climate change is cyclical then the movement from north to south with crops and animal migrations could well have caused myths from one culture to gain traction in another.

Stories do migrate; we know that. You can see it in folklore studies. At this point, though, I'm not aware of any story in European folklore (ancient sources) that resembles Atlantis in any way. But if it was real and it was in Ireland, there should be traces of it all over.

a reply to: ByrdtHa

Basque legends say they come from a drowned land called Atlantika, They share common blood groups with the stated Western sea areas of Europe and www.penguinrandomhouse.ca... Canary islands. A very high percentage of O negative, and they look like the Berbers. Where this blood type is also common.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Byrd

...

Basque legends say they come from a drowned land called Atlantika

...

Do you have a source for this?

Just some vague and maybe interesting claims that I've come across, that may or may not be relevant:

- The Iliad took place in the Baltic Sea.
- The Odyssey set sail from Britain.
- There is a dark age between the Mycenaean and Greek civilisations where there is a distinct lack of information, even
though the earliest Greek writers reference the Mycenaean gods.
- Measurements attributed to ancient Greece can actually be found in ancient sites in France and Britain.

Consider what conquering armies often do upon taking a land - the Romans and Carthage, for example.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: ByrdtHa

Basque legends say they come from a drowned land called Atlantika, They share common blood groups with the stated Western sea areas of Europe and www.penguinrandomhouse.ca... Canary islands. A very high percentage of O negative, and they look like the Berbers. Where this blood type is also common.

The link is broken, so I'm not sure where you're referencing. Other papers and pages that I've browsed don't have any information on Basque claims about Atlantis.

I'm not sure what the blood group proves... it's a small land area, so one family's genetics can dominate an area. So far, from the data I've seen, the highest number for an O negative population is Brazil with over 13% of the population

...and really, if Atlantis was supposed to be in Ireland, wouldn't the preferred blood type be common throughout the British Isles instead of way down near Africa?

originally posted by: Robert Reynolds
Just some vague and maybe interesting claims that I've come across, that may or may not be relevant:

- The Iliad took place in the Baltic Sea.
- The Odyssey set sail from Britain.
- There is a dark age between the Mycenaean and Greek civilisations where there is a distinct lack of information, even
though the earliest Greek writers reference the Mycenaean gods.
- Measurements attributed to ancient Greece can actually be found in ancient sites in France and Britain.

Consider what conquering armies often do upon taking a land - the Romans and Carthage, for example.

Huge problem there: everyone in the Odyssey spoke Greek and had Greek names.

Nvm

a reply to: Byrd
Mine's in English and published by Oxford Classics.

a reply to: Byrd

Just google, Basque Atlantis. Or Canary islands Atlantis. If people tend to look the same in different areas, it might just point to previous contact. What we are seeing if that is the case is some severe disruptions in the past for various reasons which may be the norm over time and not the occasional blip. We know civilizations rise and fall we might be witnessing some such thing at present. The computer chip made in a few factories seems to be the basis of our present culture, which seems to be a far more fragile thread to maintain than operating on a full-sized oak tree to turn it into a sailing vessel.

I like the idea of Ireland being the location. Its certainly a flight of fancy to think it is. Ancient Celts/Druids/Sumerians were all potential creators. Although with no written history, at least that I know if, its hard to say exactly what they knew and how they learned it.

The "Eye if the Sahara" is my odds on favorite. It perfectly fits the descriptions handed down throughout history. And now there has apparently been an ancient Roman map discovered that located it by name and it was where the "Eye if the Sahara" is now. If it weren't so glaringly convenient, that would be a clincher for me. As it is, its a little suspicious.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

We seem to be agreed that it was a maritime empire, Numerous locations might be the right call. Like all empires run from a central location. If Nature removed the central location, then we would be left with what we are left with. If the center of trade gets removed fragmentary deposits would get left. If Britain got leveled by some natural event during the industrial revolution. You would be left with stories much like the Atlantis ones.

Just a small side note, ever hear about a book known as the Oera Lindus?.

I read about it a long time ago and there are possibly some fake versions you can now track online but the supposed only copy of it was lost during WW2 or was a fake created by the NAZI's, but anyway what I read was that it was supposedly the history of the Frisian (I think that is Dutch but could be mistaken) peoples and told of an original story were they once inhabited an island that was far to the west which was destroyed by water and ice, according to the story that I read it was once ruled by a matriarchy and in Britain under the celt's the worship of Danu the goddess of the earth was one of the highest religions of the pagan celt's with various story's about the pen dragon the high king a ceremonial role rather than a real one but one that is related with Arthurian legend as is the Welsh legends of Merlin though in fact Merlin and Arthur were once separate legend's.

But from what I can recall the high king was only allowed to rule for seven years then he would be sacrificed to the earth and on his crowning night he would ceremonially sleep with the high priestess of the pagan Danu cult, seven years is interesting as it is also the time that Hi Brasil west of Ireland supposedly appears then vanish again every seven years.

But my point is that there is another lost land of legend sunken IF that book was not just a piece of NAZI trash propaganda, they did steal a lot of very rare book's when they raided the library's of many secret sects including the masons as they spread there power through Europe and a great many of those texts real or forgeries were then lost.

Personally I do believe it is a fake made up by the NAZI's as another alternative Arian homeland for there mythical made up ancestral superior race but it is still interesting.
en.wikipedia.org...

Now bear in mind this webpage is probably very wrong and may be pushing an agenda and a personal belief but it is still interesting to add to the fray.
stolenhistory.net...

Some have claimed that the lost homeland is in fact Greenland (those that believe the book to be true) and others that it was in what is now the arctic circle and was no other than hyperborea another mythical land that is said to exist far to the north beyond the ice (it's possible that referred to north America? though depictions of it place it mostly at the north pole which is basically a crater shaped ocean with no known sunken land mass of any kind).
en.wikipedia.org...

Still while these are not anything to do with Atlantis unless of course that mystical island of the Frisians was not Doggerland but some genuine sunken great island further west in the true Atlantic (which would make Greenland despite supposedly being frozen for millions of years and according to some conspiracy theorists once the site of the actual north pole a far more likely candidate) then that could suggest a further garbled account of an Atlantis like sunken homeland to the west.

It is interesting to me that the north sea never used to exist, the British Isles were once connected to mainland Europe and the Thames and the Rhine both were tributary's of a great river that once flowed south through what is now the English Channel (The whale road to the old Saxons and Vikings whom knew it as such due to the many whales that used to live within those waters but sadly no longer do) emptying into a great bay to the west of Iberia, now imagine if in that bay to the west of Iberia at that time there were also other island due to the apparently higher level of the crust at that time which for some reason was higher both before the last great glaciation AND during the preceding war period and during the previous glaciation and has only been inundated after this last glaciation.

So what I am saying is that English channel, daggerman being beneath the sea, the great river being submerged and all that land lost is actually a great anomaly, now it is natural but it is also perhaps indicative of something more severe than simply the melting of the ice sheets unless of course that last glaciation was for some reason particularly great compared to previous glacial periods during the quaternary period, if so the greater than previous mass of ice would explain it as it would have depressed the continental crust and so crustal rebound has not happened yet, indeed it does not seem to be going to happen any time soon?.

There are account's of strange finds that are in the realm of potential fantasy though and one such should be considered though I for one can not find anything to back this short claim up.

I read somewhere that during the 1970's a soviet scientific expedition supposedly brought up statues and other objects from a ruined city several hundred miles west of Gibraltar, this city was said to be made of concrete and a type of plastic with the ruins of a monorail system.
www.lost-civilizations.net...

And while this one is mostly suspect and likely to be bunk there are others that are equally intriguing.
www.lost-civilizations.net...

Of course these are highly conjecture but may be of interest as other avenues of enquiry though I genuinely believe they shed no knew light to the jigsaw puzzle you are wishing to solve.

It is true that Plato may have mentioned Atlantis as an allegorical tale BUT since it was supposedly Solon whom was told the story I doubt Plato would make a lie up about his at the time very famous and blood related predecessor whom I doubt he would have dared to defame by making up a lie about.

So in all likelihood while Plato may have sprinkled it up a bit the story probably DID come to him via his family from the time of Solon.

I am quite happy to believe we know nothing, that the Richat structure is our best bet for the CITY of Atlantis but that the empire of Atlantis maybe did include parts of what at that time may have been a much larger western Europe including the now Island of Ireland which at that time may have shared the land connection with Britain to the greater western Europe, indeed so much of western Europe was drowned at the end of the ice age a number of other civilizations lost to history could also once have lived there on the warmer lowlands around the coast while the hinterland were they now dwell was at that time frozen and inhospitable.

Of course this would throw a spanner in the works by adding another ethnic group and possible origin of the Gaelic language origins to the already believed Indo European language tree (As Gaelic apparently also shares a lot in common with semitic languages and it may have more than one origin therefore).

And remember take the Oera Lindus with a healthy helping of salt if you catch my drift, it is a suspect book that is probably fake but maybe, just maybe it is not OR was based on earlier story's passed down through countless generations.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Here is an interesting bit of research, the sea floor of the porcupine bank seems to have a couple of likely spots which would fit the ancient maps of High Brasil and Daemar. These are a couple of islands shown on ancient maps.

During the last ice age Ireland was pretty much buried below the ice sheets , until the melting was very much underway by the 11,600 timeframe that Plato describes .
The research on the Irish glaciation is really interesting, and it’s postulated that Ireland was depressed by 150metres by the weight of the ice, and that the ‘isostatic rebound ‘ from this is still occurring today , with the South of the island higher than the North, due to some heavy glaciation in the North raising the South . Ireland is tilted today because of this.

It’s also postulated that at this time the ‘land’ reached 90km out to the edge of the continental shelf.
This land didn’t ‘sink’ as the ice age ended . It was drowned , along with millions of miles of coast in Europe and across the world .

Scotland is still rising due to this isostatic rebound , and on islands like Jura we can see ‘raised beaches’ where the sea used to be during the last ice age
Here: raised beaches , strand lines created as the land rises creating new beach heads .
Scotland is still rising every year too.



My question about Atlantis and its location is that , If we are to follow Plato , in so much as it existed , he tells us where it was . In front of the Pillars of Heracles.
He also says it ‘sank beneath the waves’ of the Atlantic Ocean .
I know there were outposts described etc but Plato didn’t say “ leave the POH, turn right , keep going past France , keep going north..”
he describes sailing West from the POH doesn’t he?!?!

originally posted by: bluesfreak

...

My question about Atlantis and its location is that , If we are to follow Plato , in so much as it existed ...

Or we can save ourselves the trouble.

Atlantis didn't exist, and Plato wasn't that much bothered about it.

It was a fiction. He made it up to illustrate philosophical and political arguments.

Atlantis didn't exist, and Plato wasn't that much bothered about it. It was a fiction. He made it up to illustrate philosophical and political arguments.

There is no proof for your argument or position.

You are allowed your opinion, of course , however there is no proof of anything you’ve said.
It’s ASSUMED to be all the things you mention, but proof of the statement of Plato’s intent is sorely lacking.

Or we can save ourselves the trouble

You can save yourself the trouble , of course, and the lazy manner in which you dismiss the subject , but other more scientific minds than you are perfectly willing to investigate this ‘trouble’.
Science IS Trouble .

Again, I would point you to all the research done on the mid Atlantic ridge, isostatic rebound of the triple plate junction at the Azores plateau , magnetic Crustal anomalies at the Azores , and I think paleo-climatologists and paleo-geologists are at odds with your assumed , unscientific position.

a reply to: Hooke

a reply to: Hooke
It would be pretty poor form of Plato not to make it clear. If we take it at face value, he stated it as a reality.

Almost all of these 'theories' that are put forward denouncing Atalantis as a civilisation in the Atlantic, use Plato as the sole source and then re-write it to suit their case. There is no credibility in that, but bizarrely many supporters.

a reply to: Robert Reynolds

Plato was a philosopher, the whole point of his existence was to search for the truth. Not create it.

Solon was a known ,travelled and learned man who would have been regarded highly and was considerably more educated than most in his time.
Is Plato here to discredit Solons reliability or does he recount the story as one that was handed to Solon, which he retold upon his return from Egypt ?

The recounted story is preceded by the tale of Phaeton which he tells us is a truth wrapped in the guise of a myth , - a description of a real celestial event .
It plainly describes a meteor/comet/comet debris event.
Interesting how the tale ties in with events associated with the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis; meltwater pulse 1b starting , and other associated climate and environmental changes
11,500 bp
Great guesswork Plato!

a reply to: anonentity

a reply to: anonentity
When did he declare that? Furthermore, he clearly had very clear opinions of how he thought society should be - it seems to be the very point of Republic. That's not seeking truth.