Industrial sized Lathe type devices in Ancient Egypt

This guy figured it all out!

That’s exactly the type of thinking and mindset that I believe the AE would have used.
Logical, efficient.
Smart guy. A problem solver, just like the Ancient Egyptians.
Bloody awesome!! a reply to: Wide-Eyes

a reply to: bluesfreak

All the backup systems and pulleys for getting it up onto the lathe bed also hint of advanced tech. Transport systems etc. Plus the tooling that is required to cut through the stone. Add in the theory required to undertake work of this size and you are looking at a history rewrite.

All the backup systems and pulleys for getting it up onto the lathe bed also hint of advanced tech. Transport systems etc. Plus the tooling that is required to cut through the stone. Add in the theory required to undertake work of this size and you are looking at a history rewrite.

We know the AE were fully capable of transporting huge granite pieces 500 miles from Aswan to Giza, what methods of lifting we don’t know, but they plainly could.

There would be no Lathe ‘bed’ in the modern sense, as it wouldn’t be necessary. simply two raised platforms to turn between.
They could even have dug a shallow pit beneath and had it nearly at ground level for ease of moving the rough blank into place.

Again, they had harder stone than granite at their disposal to use as a cutting tool, and Ruby , if you want to explore the ‘jewelled’ tooling hypothesis.
At the slow speed required for turning these pieces , whatever cutting tool was used would have been grinding into the granite rather than pieces flying off dramatically.
This is not beyond the tech they already had, in my opinion.
a reply to: anonentity

a reply to: bluesfreak

Skills of this nature would be highly prized bits of knowledge that would have been hung onto no matter what. For instance, rubbing two bits of sticks together creates fire. We all know that. but we haven't a clue how the AE built mind-boggling beautiful structures.? just they used bashing stones and copper. That would suggest they didn't someone else did. These large palm-leafed topped columns were all over many the same dimensions which also suggests mass production.
You also need a lathe bed to hold the cutting tool and go up and down the worked piece at the constant diameter required. Plus a stone that was this big would have to be supported between the lathe centers to stop it from breaking with its own weight.

question answered

originally posted by: didntasktobeborned

Plus a stone that was this big would have to be supported between the lathe centers to stop it from breaking with its own weight.

This was another question I had, why I thought maybe they could have been done vertical in place. I know it makes no sense, the vertical question, but it keeps hitting me, maybe somebody tell me why it absolutely wouldn't be possible

We are at a point in this thread where if you don't understand it...modern science can't explain it...then it is impossible and could never have happened!

Seems to be a sticking point...can't explain it...never happened!

a reply to: bluesfreak

I’ve used a lathe and trained;worked in engineering, I understand exactly what you’re saying. However not only did they use lathes they used machinery equivalent to what we use today. Motors and electricity aren’t needed, just because they are the common method used in today’s machinery doesn’t mean it has to be done that way.
(I’m pointing that out for the detractors)
They could well have been masters of hydraulics or even pneumatics, they could have elected to keep the exact techniques they used deliberately secret,only available fot the select, like the secret of societies today do. Whatever the case, they clearly were adept master craftsman, highly skilled and highly knowledgeable, far from primitive and just as smart as the best of us in these times, if not more so.

a reply to: surfer_soul

With a little help from the fallen ones.

pneumatics

I like the way this one thinks.

a reply to: surfer_soul

Some of the temples in ancient India show lathe use as well.In one doco they showed what seemed to be a lathe made from stone.

a reply to: bluesfreak

I agree that is certainly appears to be lathe machining. My question would be along the lines of indexing. Simple division of circumference will give you a number, but it won't help you index a cutting tool to a specific location on the work. We use decimal degrees on modern equipment. To the best of my knowledge, AE did not employ 360 degree circular mathematics. Their main unit of measure was the cubit. Not even close to providing the necessary accuracy.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

before micrometers and verniers they just used a ruler.

also inside and outside calipers and don't forget the humble dividers....a reply to: anonentity

a reply to: tri-lobe-1

True that's why they could have built a steam engine out of brass or bronze without a lot of trouble. Which in a collapse would have been melted down quite quickly so how would we know the real level of technology? or even the age of stones.

Heron of Alexandria was able to make low pressure steam devices.
hamster wheel lifting devices built Ancient Athens, Rome.
no dolerite pounding stones were used in the making of the above devices. a reply to: anonentity

Skills of this nature would be highly prized bits of knowledge that would have been hung onto no matter what. For instance, rubbing two bits of sticks together creates fire. We all know that. but we haven't a clue how the AE built mind-boggling beautiful structures.? just they used bashing stones and copper. That would suggest they didn't someone else did. These large palm-leafed topped columns were all over many the same dimensions which also suggests mass production. You also need a lathe bed to hold the cutting tool and go up and down the worked piece at the constant diameter required. Plus a stone that was this big would have to be supported between the lathe centers to stop it from breaking with its own weight.

I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.
The secrecy side is still very much in evidence today, you could even say that competing machine shops today aren’t going to share their techniques or methods with each other , although I know many engineers who do, but maybe not when it comes down to competing contract work.
How many of the general public know what goes on inside machine shops these days , or even how anything is made .
I know my first introduction to it all and seeing it in action absolutely blew my mind .

My sticking point with what you say about the lathe ‘bed’ is that although today we use the bed to guide the cutting tool along and to help position the top slide , in this scenario I’m proposing some kind of guide rail along side the workpiece as the operator stands beside the turning granite .
As long as the cutting tool is held at the centre point of the soon to be cut column, ( ie at the same height on the workpiece as the right hand centre drill point) work can proceed .
Whether or not the granite would break I’m not sure, but judging from what my eyes tell me from these columns they had a method to ensure they didn’t break- a support of some kind is not out of the question by any means .

I know from experience when you are doing a set of repeatable work, you develop all your tooling around that one job, here they may have had large external calliper type objects to get the outside diameter in line with a ‘standard’ and away you go .


a reply to: anonentity

They could well have been masters of hydraulics or even pneumatics, they could have elected to keep the exact techniques they used deliberately secret,only available fot the select, like the secret of societies today do. Whatever the case, they clearly were adept master craftsman, highly skilled and highly knowledgeable, far from primitive and just as smart as the best of us in these times, if not more so.

Agree entirely. a reply to: surfer_soul

I agree that is certainly appears to be lathe machining. My question would be along the lines of indexing. Simple division of circumference will give you a number, but it won't help you index a cutting tool to a specific location on the work. We use decimal degrees on modern equipment. To the best of my knowledge, AE did not employ 360 degree circular mathematics. Their main unit of measure was the cubit. Not even close to providing the necessary accuracy.

Some great points there , and I’m not claiming to have ALL the answers .
Re indexing , I do believe that they could divide from a circumference , only because of what I see in that Palm Frond design.
Marking the workpiece in divisions could easily be done in paint , a tiny mark where each division will begin is a really simple process .
You could break it down really simply to a piece of string tied round the circumference , measured , divided, mark the string at the dividing points , put it back round the column and mark the column in relation to the string markings . That’s one method..

Whatever division method they used , it seems it was easily repeatable as there are many examples across Egypt of this design ( and so many other designs too!) that mass production was something they had no problem with .
I think they were very much like us , without electricity .
( no, im not going there!! Ha ha!) a reply to: Vroomfondel

Some of the temples in ancient India show lathe use as well.In one doco they showed what seemed to be a lathe made from stone.

I have seen that , and it certainly looks like a vertical lathe , the pure circular markings on the base of this object show rotational movement of stone.
That Praveen Mohan guy shows some really Interesting stuff that most of the world wouldn’t get to see .
In my opinion, that’s a vertical lathe .
a reply to: anonentity

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Indeed!
And when I say ‘Lathe’ it is simply turning one of these columns between two raised platforms , with a spindle and the dog drive at one end, and the holding drilled centre at the other. And probably some sort of guide rail for the cutting tool.
I’m not talking about a set up with a bed, topslide, toolpost like modern lathes - simply turning the granite between two points is a Lathe .
a reply to: Wide-Eyes

true.

and what i wondered was what would be strong enough to connect and turn all those tons at any working speed.

even at the river it would sink wouldn't it?

any diving gear back then?

maybe they suspended them from barges in the water?