Mike Pence lashes out at Joe Biden's anti-MAGA speech

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Potlatch

Excuse me, but I have seen so many similar sentiments...

MAGA stands for

Make
America
Great
Again

What is the problem with someone wanting their country to become great?

What is wrong with someone saying their country once was great?

How can anyone interpret those two questions to indicate that someone is "anti-democracy"?

Answer those questions and maybe we can have a conversation.

TheRedneck

To answer your question, moderate Republicans who despise Bernie Sanders-type progressives for complimenting Fidel Castro's social services for rural Cubans and advocating government-run healthcare know that some MAGA voters criticize the US for apologizing for support of right-wing dictators in Latin America during the Cold War, claim that the 2020 election was stolen by Democrats, and that Trump refused to reflexively speak out against hate crimes in the Deep South while calling many members of the Black Lives Matter movement terrorists.

I should emphasize that Republican politician Alexander Wiley mentioned the "make America great again" phrase in a speech before a session of Congress in 1940 ahead of that year's presidential election season, adding:

What is the way? Here is America. There are 130,000,000 of us. America needs a leader who can coordinate labor, capital, and management; who can give the man of enterprise encouragement, who can give them the spirit which will beget vision. That will make America great again.

An August 1964 advertisement urging Americans for vote for Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater mentioned the "make American great again" phrase, saying that Goldwater "will be elected by local people who want to regain their lost freedoms and make America great again". However, Goldwater's opposition to 1964 Civil Rights Act prompted Democrats to attack him for being racist, and Michigan Governor George W. Romney, a Republican, mustered a veiled attack on Goldwater, proposing to add an amendment to the Republican platform to expunge right-wing extremists from the GOP. Therefore, Goldwater's opposition to civil rights legislation cost him the 1964 presidential election.

That said, the "make American great again" mantra in today's context has come to be interpreted by Democrats and some moderate Republicans as meaning "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again".

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Potlatch

Excuse me, but I have seen so many similar sentiments...

MAGA stands for

Make
America
Great
Again

What is the problem with someone wanting their country to become great?

What is wrong with someone saying their country once was great?

How can anyone interpret those two questions to indicate that someone is "anti-democracy"?

Answer those questions and maybe we can have a conversation.

TheRedneck

It depends on what your definition of "great" is and exactly when you thought things were "great".

The fact that Trump never really defines these terms is one of the things I find to be most intellectually dishonest about the MAGA movement. By never actually defining what the content of MAGA is supposed to be, it prevents the nation from having an honest debate about it.

As a practical matter--even though he won't explicitly state it--the idea behind MAGA seems to be to drag the nation kicking and screaming back to the 1950s both culturally and geopolitically. That's when white male gentiles occupied essentially every position of importance in the US; all political offices, all financial institutions, all media outlets. That's when the US was the only major nation to have emerged from WWII stronger than before the War. The US economy was far and away the largest and most dominant one on the planet. Ditto for the US military; we could boss most other nations around and knock over the weaker ones if they didn't do what we wanted. The US had the appearance (but not the reality) of not needing anything from any other nation, so America First seemed to be a feasible policy. American industry was booming and every white high school graduate could get a job at the factory and have a reasonably comfortable blue collar life. Women weren't burning their bras yet, were still shaving their armpit hair, still needed a husband's permission to have a bank account, and abortion was illegal almost everywhere. The few percent of the population who weren't strictly heterosexual mostly tried to hide that fact with varying degrees of success. The part of the population that had too much melanin in their skin still mostly weren't getting real uppity yet and were still being lynched when they were. That seems to be the MAGA vision, and there are two things wrong with it, in my opinion.

First of all, white, male, gentiles are--as a group--now a minority of the population in 2022. If the idea is that we (I'm one) should run everything the way it was done in 1952, that is intrinsically undemocratic. All the societal subgroups that weren't represented in political, economic, and cultural institutions back in 1952 now collectively are in the majority and their voices should be heard.

Second, regardless of how appealing it might be to those who--like Trump--grew up in the 1950s and would like to see the US go back to the cultural and geopolitical conditions of their childhood, it is practically impossible. History doesn't flow that way. The cultural and geopolitical state that defines a nation at any particular point in time are made possible by the previous state of the nation leading up to that time (the initial conditions) and by the environment around that nation at that point in time (the boundary conditions). The initial conditions and boundary conditions that the US experiences in 2022 are nowhere near the same conditions we experienced in 1952, so the idea that we could make the "great" societal conditions that we experienced in the 1950s happen again in the 2020s is hopelessly stupid, IMHO.

a reply to: 1947boomer

Awesome post. Totally agree.

I keep saying I'm not a Traditionalist -- I'm Progressive (as in real meaning of the word, not a political party).

You nailed it ! ! !

a reply to: TheRedneck

What is wrong with someone saying their country once was great?

The same thing that's wrong with saying "For the first time in my life, I am proud of my country."

originally posted by: Potlatch

That said, the "make American great again" mantra in today's context has come to be interpreted by Democrats and some moderate Republicans as meaning "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again".

Yes! The whole feel of the MAGAs reminds me so much of the George Wallace era.

And it's basically the same group of people.

a reply to: Potlatch

Wow... they were simple questions.

We're talking about the present MAGA, not the one mentioned in 1940 or the one used by a failed Presidential candidate. Anyone can abuse words; hell, Biden does it all the time! And even if I did grant that those words were somehow on par with the dreaded "n"-word, they weren't prior to 2015.

But I will grant a somewhat half-hearted attempt to explain your answer here:

That said, the "make American great again" mantra in today's context has come to be interpreted by Democrats and some moderate Republicans as meaning "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again".

This is ridiculous. You know that right? You are placing your own definition, based on what you think someone else means, completely ignoring the words actually used, and then demonizing anyone who supports an agenda you just completely mangled.

I might as well say, "Build Back Better" actually is code for "Kill All N******s!" I know that's what Biden is thinking! I can prove it! I asked some other people who think like I do and they agreed! We know what Biden meant!

That would be as ridiculous as you claiming that "Make America Great Again" means "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again." In the first place, America is not a white-only nation... we are a nation of legal immigrants from every country on the planet. So your first interpretation is completely off the wall. In the second place, "sick" is not a synonym for "great." That's an antonym... they mean the opposite.

All you are doing is making crap up in your head and claiming that others think it. You have proven you have no reasonable basis for your hatred of half of the American people, which by every definition put forth in the last 10 years makes YOU a "domestic terrorist."

At least you did finally put your ignorance out there for the whole world to see. I'll give you kudos for your honesty at least.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I would ask, what policies of the Trump administration were so terrible and actually racist?

No one can answer.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TheRedneck

I would ask, what policies of the Trump administration were so terrible and actually racist?

No one can answer.

His naysayers always point out his immigration policy.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TheRedneck

I would ask, what policies of the Trump administration were so terrible and actually racist?

No one can answer.

They can't. They just don't want to admit that they hate anyone who doesn't think their ideas are the greatest ever in the world. So when someone comes along and says make America Great Again, it hurts their widdle feelz because in their opinions, America can't be great unless everyone in it does and says and thinks exactly like they do ... and since it's obviously not that way and won't can't be that way until half of us are somehow dealt with ... well ...

originally posted by: VierEyes

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TheRedneck

I would ask, what policies of the Trump administration were so terrible and actually racist?

No one can answer.

His naysayers always point out his immigration policy.

Biden's policy actually harms more illegals, and has increased human trafficking and child abuse.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: VierEyes

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TheRedneck

I would ask, what policies of the Trump administration were so terrible and actually racist?

No one can answer.

His naysayers always point out his immigration policy.

Biden's policy actually harms more illegals, and has increased human trafficking and child abuse.

I know. I know. They're talking out of their butts.

I read just yesterday about an 11-year-old girl crossing the border who had 22 different semen samples in her.

What's going on is horrendous.

Or pro indoctrination of the youth by the state.

a reply to: ColeYounger

Here's one of Trump's accomplishments -- Tax Reform: It permanently slashed the corporate tax rate to 21% from 35% while also providing temporary benefits for individuals and their families.

And the followup:

* Critics argued it was a windfall for massive corporations at the expense of the middle class. Meanwhile, supporters of the tax cuts contended it would unleash an economic bonanza. Businesses would invest in their operations, they said, resulting in improved worker productivity and higher wages.

* Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, among others, said the law would juice the nation's gross domestic product to 3% (or more, as Trump said 6%) and soon pay for itself and spread prosperity.

* But the law has achieved none of the ambitious goals that Republicans put forward — and there are scant signs they ever will.

www.businessinsider.com...-tax-reform-3

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Potlatch

Wow... they were simple questions.

We're talking about the present MAGA, not the one mentioned in 1940 or the one used by a failed Presidential candidate. Anyone can abuse words; hell, Biden does it all the time! And even if I did grant that those words were somehow on par with the dreaded "n"-word, they weren't prior to 2015.

But I will grant a somewhat half-hearted attempt to explain your answer here:

That said, the "make American great again" mantra in today's context has come to be interpreted by Democrats and some moderate Republicans as meaning "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again".

This is ridiculous. You know that right? You are placing your own definition, based on what you think someone else means, completely ignoring the words actually used, and then demonizing anyone who supports an agenda you just completely mangled.

I might as well say, "Build Back Better" actually is code for "Kill All N******s!" I know that's what Biden is thinking! I can prove it! I asked some other people who think like I do and they agreed! We know what Biden meant!

That would be as ridiculous as you claiming that "Make America Great Again" means "Make America White Again" or "Make America Sick Again." In the first place, America is not a white-only nation... we are a nation of legal immigrants from every country on the planet. So your first interpretation is completely off the wall. In the second place, "sick" is not a synonym for "great." That's an antonym... they mean the opposite.

All you are doing is making crap up in your head and claiming that others think it. You have proven you have no reasonable basis for your hatred of half of the American people, which by every definition put forth in the last 10 years makes YOU a "domestic terrorist."

At least you did finally put your ignorance out there for the whole world to see. I'll give you kudos for your honesty at least.

TheRedneck

A Washington Post news article from January 2017 noted that Democrats warned that if Donald Trump tampered with Obamacare, then his "Make American Great Again" mantra would imply that his administration wanted to "make America sick again". When Donald Trump suggested that four congresswomen “go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came,” Nancy Pelosi saw this remark as convincing her that his “Make America Great Again” slogan was a pretext to “Make America White Again”.

a reply to: Annee

Hmmm, let's see ... what happened almost barely a year or two afterward ... could it be ... COVID? And then there were lockdowns and endless tampering with the economy at the state and local levels by mostly democrats.

It takes time for tax policy to make changes. I know you lefties think that you wave a magic wand, say, "Make it so!" like Cap. Picard, and it magically happens, but it takes time. This is why you always see the downstream disasters of your policies as magically appearing "new" problems, not consequences of your own actions.

a reply to: Potlatch

Obamacare chased insurance out of the market in many areas all on its own. No one had to "help" it destroy insurance markets and exchanges. Obama built that.

originally posted by: Annee
Here's one of Trump's accomplishments -- Tax Reform: It permanently slashed the corporate tax rate to 21% from 35% while also providing temporary benefits for individuals and their families.

And the followup:

* Critics argued it was a windfall for massive corporations at the expense of the middle class. Meanwhile, supporters of the tax cuts contended it would unleash an economic bonanza. Businesses would invest in their operations, they said, resulting in improved worker productivity and higher wages.

* Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, among others, said the law would juice the nation's gross domestic product to 3% (or more, as Trump said 6%) and soon pay for itself and spread prosperity.

* But the law has achieved none of the ambitious goals that Republicans put forward — and there are scant signs they ever will.

www.businessinsider.com...-tax-reform-3

You are a hypocrite.

You won't discuss Bidens policies because you state it takes 10 years to actually see the actions.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Annee

Hmmm, let's see ... what happened almost barely a year or two afterward ... could it be ... COVID? And then there were lockdowns and endless tampering with the economy at the state and local levels by mostly democrats.

It takes time for tax policy to make changes. I know you lefties think that you wave a magic wand, say, "Make it so!" like Cap. Picard, and it magically happens, but it takes time. This is why you always see the downstream disasters of your policies as magically appearing "new" problems, not consequences of your own actions.

Did it happen or not?

Every time "you guys" bring up Trump's accomplishments -- I go look.

Do I go to a Pro-Trump site? NO

I try to find a fact-based neutral site.

His #1 accomplishment seems to be "stacking the courts".

Time will tell how qualified they are -- like Judge Aileen Cannon

a reply to: Annee

Trump did not stack the courts.

He placed non-activist judges.

Actual Constitutionalists.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Annee
Here's one of Trump's accomplishments -- Tax Reform: It permanently slashed the corporate tax rate to 21% from 35% while also providing temporary benefits for individuals and their families.

And the followup:

* Critics argued it was a windfall for massive corporations at the expense of the middle class. Meanwhile, supporters of the tax cuts contended it would unleash an economic bonanza. Businesses would invest in their operations, they said, resulting in improved worker productivity and higher wages.

* Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, among others, said the law would juice the nation's gross domestic product to 3% (or more, as Trump said 6%) and soon pay for itself and spread prosperity.

* But the law has achieved none of the ambitious goals that Republicans put forward — and there are scant signs they ever will.

www.businessinsider.com...-tax-reform-3

You are a hypocrite.

You won't discuss Bidens policies because you state it takes 10 years to actually see the actions.

I'm not interested in Biden's polices at this time.

Do I personally have any impact on decisions he makes? NO

He's gonna do what he does.

We'll see where it goes.